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2012 Canada-Russia junior summit

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Old
08-07-2012, 06:21 PM
  #301
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Originally Posted by warrenwelte View Post
anybody know, what the tickets sell for the games in Russia ?
200 rubles for the cheapest ticket = less than 7 dollars CAN. 400 rubles for the most expensive = less than 13 dollars CAN.

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08-07-2012, 08:09 PM
  #302
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I don't think intimidating anybody with physical play is Canada's intent in Yaroslavl, as really only Jenner will get a lot of ice time there. Canada doesn't have a whole lot of heavy hitters other than Sutter and Wilson who I'm betting won't even dress in Russia. Other than those 3 Canada is not an overly big team and our biggest hitter Dumba (make no mistake, he's a hunter killer) he's only 185 lbs. but he can deliver a big hit. So, I don't think Canada will try to run anybody out of the rink. Now, in Halifax? All bets are off...

P.S. apparently the Canadian coach is a little peeved at Russia video-taping Canada's practice. Oh the games we play.

i am a little annoyed at the comments comng thru that this team needs to play physical to overcome the high skill level of the Russians. ********!!
this team has tons of talent and can skate with any european team. Just watch and see.

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08-07-2012, 08:54 PM
  #303
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The days of Russia having a greater abundance of more skilled players then Canada have been over for a long, long time.


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Originally Posted by clarkebr View Post
i am a little annoyed at the comments comng thru that this team needs to play physical to overcome the high skill level of the Russians. ********!!
this team has tons of talent and can skate with any european team. Just watch and see.

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08-07-2012, 09:21 PM
  #304
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Originally Posted by clarkebr View Post
i am a little annoyed at the comments comng thru that this team needs to play physical to overcome the high skill level of the Russians. ********!!
this team has tons of talent and can skate with any european team. Just watch and see.
People enjoy stereotypes. It's a lot easier than watching and thinking.

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08-08-2012, 04:05 AM
  #305
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Originally Posted by clarkebr View Post
i am a little annoyed at the comments comng thru that this team needs to play physical to overcome the high skill level of the Russians. ********!!
this team has tons of talent and can skate with any european team. Just watch and see.
Not sure if you are annoyed at my comment or not, but I believe that is what I said, Canada's intent is not to intimidate anybody with physical play, I just don't see those types of players up and down the roster. There are a few, but none that will see significant ice time in Yaroslavl.

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08-08-2012, 04:13 AM
  #306
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The days of Russia having a greater abundance of more skilled players then Canada have been over for a long, long time.
Was there ever a time they did? I don't think so! Other than for a 3 year period from 1979-81 The Big Red Machine never really existed. It was more myth than anything else. Other than the 1981 Canada Cup the Soviets/Russians were never that great. Given their track record in Best v Best Tournaments if you apply the same winning percentage to the World Championship, and if it were indeed a best v best tournament, then you can cut those 26 gold medals down to about 10.

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08-08-2012, 04:44 AM
  #307
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Originally Posted by Mr Writer View Post
Was there ever a time they did? I don't think so! Other than for a 3 year period from 1979-81 The Big Red Machine never really existed. It was more myth than anything else. Other than the 1981 Canada Cup the Soviets/Russians were never that great. Given their track record in Best v Best Tournaments if you apply the same winning percentage to the World Championship, and if it were indeed a best v best tournament, then you can cut those 26 gold medals down to about 10.
Uuuugh, now you've done it.

Get ready for this thread to be derailed.

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08-08-2012, 04:48 AM
  #308
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Uuuugh, now you've done it.

Get ready for this thread to be derailed.
noting wrong with stirring up a ****storm once and a while. Keeps the troops on their toes.

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08-08-2012, 04:56 AM
  #309
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People enjoy stereotypes. It's a lot easier than watching and thinking.
Holistically, I don't think any side is more talented.....but certain countries do emphasize and excel in particular skill-sets more than others.

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08-08-2012, 08:53 AM
  #310
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I think Canada will come out a lot smarter than trying to steamroll or 'take-out' the Russians out of the game.

1- BIG ICE- waste of energy chasing around a fast team like Russia. Can get caught easily out of position for 2v1, 3v2s
2- They realize that it doesn't work as effectively anymore
3- No home crowd to pump
4- Russians can hit back just as hard
5- Penalties that can result from agressive play (caused problems for Canada in the past)

With the skilled forwards upfront, Canada will try to focus on getting the puck in the zone, to the net and get rebounds. With good goalies like Vasilevski in net, they'll need to screen him as well.

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08-08-2012, 10:50 AM
  #311
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I think there was a time they put more work into developing pure skill in all their players then we did and that it showed in a higher amount of players that were highly skilled.

Does this mean that it paid off against us in more victories then we had against them when both teams were using their best players? No. Because when it came to the very elite level we produced more then enough elite skilled players that on a team of 23-25 players it was even.

But I do think it resulted in a higher amount of pure skilled players from top to bottom if you were talking about the top 100-200 players from both countries. And I think this was mostly true for a number of years.

However, as I said, Canada took care of even that slight gap long ago.

Canada has given up nothing to Russia in amount of skilled players ages ago.


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Originally Posted by Mr Writer View Post
Was there ever a time they did? I don't think so! Other than for a 3 year period from 1979-81 The Big Red Machine never really existed. It was more myth than anything else. Other than the 1981 Canada Cup the Soviets/Russians were never that great. Given their track record in Best v Best Tournaments if you apply the same winning percentage to the World Championship, and if it were indeed a best v best tournament, then you can cut those 26 gold medals down to about 10.

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08-08-2012, 12:10 PM
  #312
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Originally Posted by espo View Post
The days of Russia having a greater abundance of more skilled players then Canada have been over for a long, long time.
In my opinion, Russian forwards tend to be highly skilled in comparison to other nations because skill is what Russian hockey emphasizes and makes the effort to develop. Skill is a function of repetition, and to a lesser degree now than in the Soviet days, Russian hockey schools focus on repetition of basic hockey skills. Russian youth hockey is almost exclusively devoted to skills development in practice. If you pay the price in practice, and you have the talent, you will reap the reward of developing advanced skills.

Canadian hockey, since the 1950's, has emphasized forechecking, storming the net and shooting over fancy stickhandling and passing. I attribute that to the fact that the system in Canada, from major junior up to senior pro, requires playing 70 to 90 games a year. When you are playing 3 games a week, you can't spend 15 to 20 hours a week in hard, grueling practices, like Russian kids are required to do. There are obviously more than a few really great Canadian stickhandlers and passers, but it seems to me that those are individually developed skills, or maybe just talent, that exist in spite of the system rather than because of it. Seriously, if I had a nickel for every time a member of the Canadian Parliament launched an inquiry to find out why Canadian kids aren't as silled as their foreign competition (read Russians), I would have had a servant write this post. Its a fact - check it out!

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08-08-2012, 12:26 PM
  #313
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Originally Posted by espo View Post
I think there was a time they put more work into developing pure skill in all their players then we did and that it showed in a higher amount of players that were highly skilled.

Does this mean that it paid off against us in more victories then we had against them when both teams were using their best players? No. Because when it came to the very elite level we produced more then enough elite skilled players that on a team of 23-25 players it was even.

But I do think it resulted in a higher amount of pure skilled players from top to bottom if you were talking about the top 100-200 players from both countries. And I think this was mostly true for a number of years.

However, as I said, Canada took care of even that slight gap long ago.

Canada has given up nothing to Russia in amount of skilled players ages ago.
Your analysis is correct when you say that the gap in skill has been dramatically lessened since 1991. Not so much because of anything in particular that was done in Canada, but much more because Russian hockey collapsed when the Soviet system collapsed. Russia went through a period of poverty that has been described "three times worse" than the Great Depression of the Thirties in America. All but a few major hockey schools were closed because there was no money to maintain buildings or pay coaches. A few good players were produced in that era, but the national teams were crap. When Russia began to recover economically in the mid-2000's, hockey also began to come around. If the current trend continues, Russian hockey could be better than ever in the not-too-distant future.

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08-08-2012, 12:28 PM
  #314
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Originally Posted by Fulcrum View Post
4- Russians can hit back just as hard
i think this has been proven over and over and over too many times that this in fact is not true, however i do agree with the rest of your points that Canada has to keep their heads on straight and not run around or they will be behind the 8 ball immediately

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08-08-2012, 12:38 PM
  #315
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Originally Posted by Fulcrum View Post
I think Canada will come out a lot smarter than trying to steamroll or 'take-out' the Russians out of the game.

1- BIG ICE- waste of energy chasing around a fast team like Russia. Can get caught easily out of position for 2v1, 3v2s
2- They realize that it doesn't work as effectively anymore
3- No home crowd to pump
4- Russians can hit back just as hard
5- Penalties that can result from agressive play (caused problems for Canada in the past)

With the skilled forwards upfront, Canada will try to focus on getting the puck in the zone, to the net and get rebounds. With good goalies like Vasilevski in net, they'll need to screen him as well.
I like the Defense in front of Vasilevski. There is some experience (3 guys played in the WJC), and there is some talent. They are key to how well the Russians do. If they have major trouble clearing the puck out of the defensive zone, as they did during the WJC, we're in trouble. If they can get the puck out of the zone and up to the forwards, it will be a battle. I agree that overemphasis on the physical game could backfire. It makes for a good show in front of the home fans, but often at the expense of taking yourself out of the play when there is a lot of offensive talent around to make you pay for your absence.

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08-08-2012, 12:39 PM
  #316
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Let the **** storm begin!!!!!



Quote:
Originally Posted by Yakushev72 View Post
In my opinion, Russian forwards tend to be highly skilled in comparison to other nations because skill is what Russian hockey emphasizes and makes the effort to develop. Skill is a function of repetition, and to a lesser degree now than in the Soviet days, Russian hockey schools focus on repetition of basic hockey skills. Russian youth hockey is almost exclusively devoted to skills development in practice. If you pay the price in practice, and you have the talent, you will reap the reward of developing advanced skills.

Canadian hockey, since the 1950's, has emphasized forechecking, storming the net and shooting over fancy stickhandling and passing. I attribute that to the fact that the system in Canada, from major junior up to senior pro, requires playing 70 to 90 games a year. When you are playing 3 games a week, you can't spend 15 to 20 hours a week in hard, grueling practices, like Russian kids are required to do. There are obviously more than a few really great Canadian stickhandlers and passers, but it seems to me that those are individually developed skills, or maybe just talent, that exist in spite of the system rather than because of it. Seriously, if I had a nickel for every time a member of the Canadian Parliament launched an inquiry to find out why Canadian kids aren't as silled as their foreign competition (read Russians), I would have had a servant write this post. Its a fact - check it out!

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08-08-2012, 12:43 PM
  #317
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Originally Posted by Yakushev72 View Post
Your analysis is correct when you say that the gap in skill has been dramatically lessened since 1991. Not so much because of anything in particular that was done in Canada, but much more because Russian hockey collapsed when the Soviet system collapsed. Russia went through a period of poverty that has been described "three times worse" than the Great Depression of the Thirties in America. All but a few major hockey schools were closed because there was no money to maintain buildings or pay coaches. A few good players were produced in that era, but the national teams were crap. When Russia began to recover economically in the mid-2000's, hockey also began to come around. If the current trend continues, Russian hockey could be better than ever in the not-too-distant future.
That I won't argue with, as I was a student in St. Petersburg for two years from 94-96. Not an easy period for sure.

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08-08-2012, 12:43 PM
  #318
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Originally Posted by Yakushev72 View Post
In my opinion, Russian forwards tend to be highly skilled in comparison to other nations because skill is what Russian hockey emphasizes and makes the effort to develop. Skill is a function of repetition, and to a lesser degree now than in the Soviet days, Russian hockey schools focus on repetition of basic hockey skills. Russian youth hockey is almost exclusively devoted to skills development in practice. If you pay the price in practice, and you have the talent, you will reap the reward of developing advanced skills.

Canadian hockey, since the 1950's, has emphasized forechecking, storming the net and shooting over fancy stickhandling and passing. I attribute that to the fact that the system in Canada, from major junior up to senior pro, requires playing 70 to 90 games a year. When you are playing 3 games a week, you can't spend 15 to 20 hours a week in hard, grueling practices, like Russian kids are required to do. There are obviously more than a few really great Canadian stickhandlers and passers, but it seems to me that those are individually developed skills, or maybe just talent, that exist in spite of the system rather than because of it. Seriously, if I had a nickel for every time a member of the Canadian Parliament launched an inquiry to find out why Canadian kids aren't as silled as their foreign competition (read Russians), I would have had a servant write this post. Its a fact - check it out!
Maybe we have different definitions of inquiry because I'm not aware of there ever being a parliamentary inquiry into hockey skills. As for skill development, when was the last time you watched a minor hockey practice here?

This is what I meant by my earlier comment on stereotypes.

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08-08-2012, 12:47 PM
  #319
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100% agreed.

Russian fans have got a bit of a macho thing going on lately in that they think they can " give as good as they get" and don't give away anything in that department anymore but from watching the games it's clear they are still not as physical as the Canadians (or Americans for that matter and I would also put the Finns in this department) and make no mistake...................you can still throw them off plenty playing a tough physical style. It's still not something they much care for at all. They want to be skating, shooting and passing and they still don't like to be harassed when doing so and can be broken down when you give that to them.


Like Yakushev said, the "skill" game is their game.

The physical game still isn't, although they have gotten better at it the last while it's still not something they are masters in or enjoy.


Quote:
Originally Posted by afrobomber11 View Post
i think this has been proven over and over and over too many times that this in fact is not true, however i do agree with the rest of your points that Canada has to keep their heads on straight and not run around or they will be behind the 8 ball immediately

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08-08-2012, 12:54 PM
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Yeah, I got a kick out of the "regular parliamentary inquiries" thing too

Minor Hockey aside, he would be even better served just going to youtube and checking out the 2010 olympic game between the two countries, if he needed any proof that Canada is just fine in the skills department he should have no problem in finding it there.


The Russians took an absolute textbook lesson in skill right between the two eyes.


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Originally Posted by Macman View Post
Maybe we have different definitions of inquiry because I'm not aware of there ever being a parliamentary inquiry into hockey skills. As for skill development, when was the last time you watched a minor hockey practice here?

This is what I meant by my earlier comment on stereotypes.

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08-08-2012, 01:00 PM
  #321
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Maybe we have different definitions of inquiry because I'm not aware of there ever being a parliamentary inquiry into hockey skills. As for skill development, when was the last time you watched a minor hockey practice here?

This is what I meant by my earlier comment on stereotypes.
It is actually true. There was an inquiry after the '72 series, and I believe also after the Challenge Cup in 1979 and possibly one other occasion when Canadian teams suffered a loss of some sort. I tried to Google it to see if I could find reference to it, but inquiries are listed chronologically, from 2012 back (there were a few hockey-related inquiries listed), so I might not have the energy to research it back that far. But I do remember irate Parliamenteers demanding an inquiry to find out what has happened to Canadian hockey. I do believe some organizations were established to promote development of hockey skills among Canadian youth as a result of it.

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08-08-2012, 01:07 PM
  #322
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Originally Posted by Yakushev72 View Post
It is actually true. There was an inquiry after the '72 series, and I believe also after the Challenge Cup in 1979 and possibly one other occasion when Canadian teams suffered a loss of some sort. I tried to Google it to see if I could find reference to it, but inquiries are listed chronologically, from 2012 back (there were a few hockey-related inquiries listed), so I might not have the energy to research it back that far. But I do remember irate Parliamenteers demanding an inquiry to find out what has happened to Canadian hockey. I do believe some organizations were established to promote development of hockey skills among Canadian youth as a result of it.
A politician demanding an inquiry and an inquiry actually being held are two entirely different things. I'm not saying you're wrong, but I have no recollection of any ever being held, and I can't imagine Parliament would ever allow it. There have been Hockey Canada summits like the one after Nagano, but other than that. I'll dig around a bit.


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08-08-2012, 01:12 PM
  #323
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Originally Posted by Yakushev72 View Post
It is actually true. There was an inquiry after the '72 series, and I believe also after the Challenge Cup in 1979 and possibly one other occasion when Canadian teams suffered a loss of some sort. I tried to Google it to see if I could find reference to it, but inquiries are listed chronologically, from 2012 back (there were a few hockey-related inquiries listed), so I might not have the energy to research it back that far. But I do remember irate Parliamenteers demanding an inquiry to find out what has happened to Canadian hockey. I do believe some organizations were established to promote development of hockey skills among Canadian youth as a result of it.
There was never such a thing. A few Parliamentarians may have stood up and voiced their opinion looking for attention and media time. There was a Summit organized by Hockey Canada in 98 after the Nagano Olympics with recommendation and changes in the structure of Hockey Canada and to it's 10 provincial branches. But a Parliamentary inquiry into hockey would be laughed at in Canada as a huge waste of tax payer money and wouldn't fly. There was a sub committee meeting in the Ministry of Sport and Culture violence in amateur sport where the issue of violence in minor hockey was addressed.

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08-08-2012, 01:13 PM
  #324
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Originally Posted by espo View Post
Yeah, I got a kick out of the "regular parliamentary inquiries" thing too

Minor Hockey aside, he would be even better served just going to youtube and checking out the 2010 olympic game between the two countries, if he needed any proof that Canada is just fine in the skills department he should have no problem in finding it there.


The Russians took an absolute textbook lesson in skill right between the two eyes.

Russia's 2010 olympic failure was a result of poor coaching....it's an element severely lacking in Russian hockey right now, and one where we could learn from Canada.

However, Yakushev72 is correct. Per player capita, Russia produces better skaters, puckhandlers, etc. than Canada does. It stems from the skills emphasized in practice from a young age. Same reason why Russia generally lacks Canada's physical skills.

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08-08-2012, 01:17 PM
  #325
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Same reason why Russia generally lacks Canada's physical skills.
Thank you Zine. I think this is first time I've ever seen a Russian fan acknowledge that hitting is actually a skill.

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