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World Junior Championship Discuss international tournaments such as the World Juniors, Olympic hockey, and Ice Hockey World Championships, as they take place; or discuss past tournaments.

2012 Canada-Russia junior summit

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Old
08-08-2012, 03:51 PM
  #351
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Hey, I've never argued that other countries can't compete. And that on any given day we can lose a freaking hockey game, it's sport. Long term, big picture, Canada will win more often than not. And believe me, I'm happy I wasn't alive in the first half of the century when the rest of the world could not compete, because that would be a complete bore to watch. but now that we have competition, that there isn't dominance of one country over all others, it makes it all the more interesting. Dominance is very much in the Russian Soviet mentality... I remember when Canada was running off 5 W Junior titles in a row, the media started with their B.S. ho hum is this tourney turning out to be a dud or what... just like they make a stink when we lose 3 in a row. Dude, IF in Buffalo we had our 7 best players who were in the NHL, Russia is not winning that game.. not a chance! You take Russia's top 2 lines and leave them in Moscow to watch, Russia will struggle to win a game. End of story, end of debate. My work is finished for the day and time to go play.
If ifs and buts were candy and nuts, we'd all have a merry Christmas

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08-08-2012, 03:54 PM
  #352
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Without ifs and buts, everything would be candy and nuts.
Cheers my Russian friends! do zavtra! I'm outta here.

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08-08-2012, 03:55 PM
  #353
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What-ifs are just that and not based on reality. If America's best athletes turned to hockey, they'd churn out 23-player teams capable of winning their share of championships just like Canada does and Russia does and Sweden does. As long as rosters aren't allowed to be any bigger than that, they wouldn't wipe the floor any more than anybody else does now. They'd just have bigger arguments about who should be on those teams, like Canadians do.
USA would dominate at higher levels than they do basketball.

Remember, sports like basketball & baseball are more popular/more played global sports than hockey.....yet USA can dominate these sports despite them being #2/3 in popularity at home.

If all of America's best athletes turned to hockey, they'd destroy a lesser global game like hockey at every level.


Last edited by Zine: 08-08-2012 at 04:01 PM.
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08-08-2012, 04:02 PM
  #354
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What-ifs are just that and not based on reality. If America's best athletes turned to hockey, they'd churn out 23-player teams capable of winning their share of championships just like Canada does and Russia does and Sweden does. As long as rosters aren't allowed to be any bigger than that, they wouldn't wipe the floor any more than anybody else does now. They'd just have bigger arguments about who should be on those teams, like Canadians do.
I'm not a geneticist, but I agree with Zine's point here, which I think is that the larger the talent pool, the more talented individuals there are to be found. For example, every high school in the US has a basketball team, and every college has a basketball team. The end result is 32 NBA teams that have more superior talents, per capita, than any other professional sports league in the NA. When you compete against superior talents day in and day out, you have to constantly raise your level of performance. The result is that when the US goes into the Olympics, they crush their opponents, who can't really compete. I think that is what Zine is saying about Canadian hockey, and it makes sense to me.

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08-08-2012, 05:43 PM
  #355
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Originally Posted by Fulcrum View Post
I think the difference about skill developement is at the very core.

In Russia, hockey players join hockey SCHOOLS to learn HOW to play Hockey. It works well when your school has a handful of talented players and youths who can even afford to play hockey. It's a simple fact that MORE time is spent practicing than in NA, and less time playing. Hence the product of higher skilled player % when it comes to raw skills. Game skills are worse, however.

In Canada, players join leagues. If they want, they can develop their skills further with camps, tutors, classes, and eventually their team practices if they get to higher levels and as they get older. This system works well for the masses.

Very rarely do you find a Russian hockey player who graduater from a reputable school without being able to stickhandle (for example) at a very good level. In Canada, you can continue to to play for your team at higher levels if you are beneficial to that team, but your stickhandling (again, for example) is not judged as much.

The other difference is that elite level tutoring is more accessible to Russian players once you are IN a reputable school and kids by age 8-10 can often be in very good hands.
Your point is well evident in the last Canada-Russia series. There were some talented and skilled Russian players (e.g., Voynov, etc.), but they couldn't stand up to intense competition. There were other problems, but that was the biggest one. By all accounts, the decision to create the MHL was as a direct result of the 2007 Series. The Canadians embarrassed Russian hockey. Hopefully, they won't do it again tomorrow.

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08-08-2012, 06:14 PM
  #356
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Originally Posted by Zine View Post
USA would dominate at higher levels than they do basketball.

Remember, sports like basketball & baseball are more popular/more played global sports than hockey.....yet USA can dominate these sports despite them being #2/3 in popularity at home.

If all of America's best athletes turned to hockey, they'd destroy a lesser global game like hockey at every level.
It's a nice theory but it's just not that simplistic.

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08-08-2012, 06:23 PM
  #357
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Originally Posted by Yakushev72 View Post
Your point is well evident in the last Canada-Russia series. There were some talented and skilled Russian players (e.g., Voynov, etc.), but they couldn't stand up to intense competition. There were other problems, but that was the biggest one. By all accounts, the decision to create the MHL was as a direct result of the 2007 Series. The Canadians embarrassed Russian hockey. Hopefully, they won't do it again tomorrow.
I'd be shocked if there's a repeat. I'm not as confident about Canada's forward group this time and the Russian team should be a lot better than in '07.

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08-08-2012, 08:06 PM
  #358
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Totally the result of coaching?

Really?

You make it all sound so simple, as if Jesus Christ himself was behind our bench directing the troops and coming up with the perfect game plan. We could have brought some Bantam players and still won because our coaching was simply sublime.


That's quite funny, being as your contention is that Russia has the most skilled players in the world without question. If this is true then obviously we must have had some pretty talented players actually playing on the ice that day if we were totally able to blow out those demi gods of skill.


Coaching was but one aspect where Russia was outclassed that day.

They were also out skated, out passed,out stick handled,out shot, and were inferior in hockey sense with play at a fast level.

In short, they were out skilled that day.

I saw it with my own eyes, perhaps you turned the game off after the first few minutes, I can't say I blame you if you did so.


Canada takes a backseat in skill to absolutely no one in the game of hockey and that's a fact not conjecture.


You know, I don't really buy your attitude at all, I have seen enough of your posts to know you are quite a knowledgeable fan of hockey. That's why I find it difficult to swallow that you simply cannot believe Russia can actually be outclassed skill wise on any given day. And not just by Canada may I add.

It's weird, take 1981 Canada cup for example....................I have no problem admitting we were simply overpowered by skill that particular day.

Why does it seem like it's a mortal sin to just admit facts that Canada was able to out skill Russia that day in Vancouver?

Because we all know that is what happened.


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Originally Posted by Zine View Post
Russia's 2010 olympic failure was a result of poor coaching....it's an element severely lacking in Russian hockey right now, and one where we could learn from Canada.

However, Yakushev72 is correct. Per player capita, Russia produces better skaters, puckhandlers, etc. than Canada does. It stems from the skills emphasized in practice from a young age. Same reason why Russia generally lacks Canada's physical skills.

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08-08-2012, 08:12 PM
  #359
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Conversely, when you have a country with such a huge population as Russia where Hockey is at the least the number 2 sport you're bound to produce the odd Malkin and Ovechkins too.

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Originally Posted by Zine View Post
Despite results, I really don't think the typical Canadian (or American for that matter) possesses an abundance of finesse skills; especially considering such an important element of NA hockey is the 3rd/4th line grinder/role player. You rarely see that type of player in Russia, nor is that skill set emphasized.
However, when a country produce a gazillion players, of course it will eventually produce the Gretzky, Lemieux or Crosby.

Likewise, (despite such a disadvantage in player numbers, game popularity, resources, etc.) I think the reason Sweden, Finland, Russia can compete with Canada is because of superior youth development systems.

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08-09-2012, 12:37 AM
  #360
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If ifs and buts were candy and nuts, we'd all have a merry Christmas
Long live the memory of Dandy Don.

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08-09-2012, 12:59 AM
  #361
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Totally the result of coaching?

Really?

You make it all sound so simple, as if Jesus Christ himself was behind our bench directing the troops and coming up with the perfect game plan. We could have brought some Bantam players and still won because our coaching was simply sublime.


That's quite funny, being as your contention is that Russia has the most skilled players in the world without question. If this is true then obviously we must have had some pretty talented players actually playing on the ice that day if we were totally able to blow out those demi gods of skill.


Coaching was but one aspect where Russia was outclassed that day. However, Zine is right when he said that coaching was probably the biggest factor. Not for Canada, but for Russia. The Russian goalie (can't remember his name at the moment) gave up three soft goals of the four scored in the first (Brenden Morrow's goal was unbelievably soft) period. He should have been pulled. Instead, Bykov left him in until he gave up his sixth early in the second period before pulling him for Bryzgalov. Russia rallied a bit, but by that time, it was too late. So I agree with Zine that bad Russian coaching was a critical element in the scale of their loss.

They were also out skated, out passed,out stick handled,out shot, and were inferior in hockey sense with play at a fast level.

In short, they were out skilled that day.

I saw it with my own eyes, perhaps you turned the game off after the first few minutes, I can't say I blame you if you did so.


Canada takes a backseat in skill to absolutely no one in the game of hockey and that's a fact not conjecture.


You know, I don't really buy your attitude at all, I have seen enough of your posts to know you are quite a knowledgeable fan of hockey. That's why I find it difficult to swallow that you simply cannot believe Russia can actually be outclassed skill wise on any given day. And not just by Canada may I add.

It's weird, take 1981 Canada cup for example....................I have no problem admitting we were simply overpowered by skill that particular day.

Why does it seem like it's a mortal sin to just admit facts that Canada was able to out skill Russia that day in Vancouver?

Because we all know that is what happened.
It was really the only outstanding game that Canada played in the 2010 Olympics, as they won every other game (except for the loss to the US in the round robin) by a whisker, but yes, they did trounce the Russians in that game. Full credit to Canada for a great win. Still, I agree with Zine that coaching was a major component of the margin of the loss, if nothing else. Of the 4 goals given up by the Russian goalie (can't think of his name) in the first period, 3 were exceptionally soft, particularly Brenden Morrow's goal. Bykov should have pulled him at the end of the first, but instead stuck with him until early in the second, when he gave up his 6th goal. Russia rallied after that, but by that time it was too late. So yes, coaching was a big reason for the margin of victory.


Last edited by Yakushev72: 08-09-2012 at 01:05 AM. Reason: finish my sentence
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08-09-2012, 04:24 AM
  #362
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Game Day Folks! Nothing better than a little summer hockey between 2 bitter rivals. Looking forward to an up-tempo, hi-emotion, up and down entertaining game. I don't think it will be 2007 all over again... I think the Russians are much better prepared this time and determined to give us a black eye. For the few good friends I have in Yaroslavl who'll be at the game tonight, happy that we honor the memory of those we lost last year. Lokomotiv - Nasha Komanda Navsegda.

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08-09-2012, 05:31 AM
  #363
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Canadian lines: Huberdeau-Scheifele-Rattie; Lessio-Strome-Shinkaruk; Danault-Jenner-Hudon; Leipsic-Sutter-Wilson

13th forward Monahan.

Harrington-Murray; Ouellet-Hamilton; Rielly-Dumba; Reinhart.

Subban gets the start

On the big ice in Yaroslavl I would have gone with a slightly different team. But my in game strategy/tactics does not often jive with that of HC.

J Huberdeau M Scheiffle T Rattie
H Shinkaruk R Strome S Monahan
P Di Giuseppe P Danault C Hudon
L Lessio B Jenner L Sutter

13TH Kevin Roy

R Murray G Reinhart
D Hamilton M Reilly
C Ceci X Ouellette
S Harrington or maybe even Dumba for 1 game.

GOALIES
M Subban

I'd be more interested in seeing what the smaller skilled forwards like Di Giuseppe and Kevin Roy can do on big ice. We all know what Sutter, Wilson and Jenner are all about. But anyway, we shall see. My prediction: Canada wins 4-3. but it's going to be a close close game.

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08-09-2012, 06:40 AM
  #364
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I hope the atmosphere will be good. There doesn't appear to be much interest in this series from either side.

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08-09-2012, 06:59 AM
  #365
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I hope the atmosphere will be good. There doesn't appear to be much interest in this series from either side.
To hell with the Olympics, let's watch hockey!

I'm shocked there's been nothing about the series in the Canadian papers. Most people I know don't know what the series is about or that it's even taking place. The Olympics is overshadowing everything.

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08-09-2012, 07:05 AM
  #366
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Originally Posted by Mr Writer View Post
Canadian lines: Huberdeau-Scheifele-Rattie; Lessio-Strome-Shinkaruk; Danault-Jenner-Hudon; Leipsic-Sutter-Wilson

13th forward Monahan.

Harrington-Murray; Ouellet-Hamilton; Rielly-Dumba; Reinhart.

Subban gets the start

On the big ice in Yaroslavl I would have gone with a slightly different team. But my in game strategy/tactics does not often jive with that of HC.

J Huberdeau M Scheiffle T Rattie
H Shinkaruk R Strome S Monahan
P Di Giuseppe P Danault C Hudon
L Lessio B Jenner L Sutter

13TH Kevin Roy

R Murray G Reinhart
D Hamilton M Reilly
C Ceci X Ouellette
S Harrington or maybe even Dumba for 1 game.

GOALIES
M Subban

I'd be more interested in seeing what the smaller skilled forwards like Di Giuseppe and Kevin Roy can do on big ice. We all know what Sutter, Wilson and Jenner are all about. But anyway, we shall see. My prediction: Canada wins 4-3. but it's going to be a close close game.
Interesting lineup. Who do you see going up against Grigorenko-Yakupov? The Sutter line? They're obviously going to see right away how Wilson plays on big ice. Should be fun.

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08-09-2012, 07:08 AM
  #367
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To hell with the Olympics, let's watch hockey!

I'm shocked there's been nothing about the series in the Canadian papers. Most people I know don't know what the series is about or that it's even taking place. The Olympics is overshadowing everything.
Ya, I've been monitoring the Russian sports websites, not getting much attention at all, but today there was an interesting article with Grigorenko on sportbox.ru TSN here is really the only one covering it for obvious reasons, they are in bed with HC. It will just be 4 games, we'll argue until its over, and whoever comes out on the short end of the equation will quickly forget all about it. On to the Ufa WJHC.

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08-09-2012, 07:11 AM
  #368
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Interesting lineup. Who do you see going up against Grigorenko-Yakupov? The Sutter line? They're obviously going to see right away how Wilson plays on big ice. Should be fun.
From what I hear it's the Jenner line up against Grigs Yak and co.

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08-09-2012, 07:40 AM
  #369
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Rossiya 2 will broadcast russian games of serie

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08-09-2012, 07:44 AM
  #370
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Rossiya 2 will broadcast russian games of serie
and sportbox.ru is streaming on-line. Although, not sure if they are streaming only in Russia and will be blocked in North America.

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08-09-2012, 07:45 AM
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and sportbox.ru is streaming on-line. Although, not sure if they are streaming only in Russia and will be blocked in North America.
dont know, KHL games are geo-blocked. There is link for Rossiya 2 http://kaban.tv/rossiya-2-online

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08-09-2012, 07:50 AM
  #372
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dont know, KHL games are geo-blocked. There is link for Rossiya 2 http://kaban.tv/rossiya-2-online
I read on sport-express.ru that maybe on the FHR website they'll stream the games, but I see no notification of that on the FHR website. But, hey, my TV is fully stocked with about 20 sports channels, including TSN 2... so I'm fully covered.

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08-09-2012, 07:52 AM
  #373
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and sportbox.ru is streaming on-line. Although, not sure if they are streaming only in Russia and will be blocked in North America.
sportbox is always blocked for NA

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08-09-2012, 07:53 AM
  #374
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Looking forward to seeing the Canadian defence. Murray-Harrington will obviously be the shutdown pair. Dumba-Rielly wlll be interesing; big hitter with big skater. I just noticed Murphy isn't playing. That's really interesting. He can't be too thrilled.

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08-09-2012, 07:54 AM
  #375
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dont know, KHL games are geo-blocked. There is link for Rossiya 2 http://kaban.tv/rossiya-2-online
sport-2 not Rossiya-2

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