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International Tournaments Discuss international tournaments such as the World Juniors, Olympic hockey, and Ice Hockey World Championships, as they take place; or discuss past tournaments.

2012 Canada-Russia junior summit

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Old
05-14-2012, 06:16 PM
  #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yakushev72 View Post
Some of the guys you named did play in the WJC, if I recall correctly (Kane, Hall, Couturier, Johansson). Regardless of what year they didn't play, they weren't dominant in the years that they did. They didn't lead Canada to Gold. It seems that your statement may be based on the fact that these kids played respectably in the NHL immediately at a young age. But that doesn't mean that they are necessarily dominant talents. Historically, it has not been unusual for teenagers to have an immediate impact in the NHL. That is especially true now, because the talent pool is stretched thin with 30 teams to staff. I don't think its a given that if a kid plays well in the NHL, he would automatically dominate in the WJC.
Nice attempt to cover yourself after a poorly thought out statement. If you do not think those players would have dominated that tournament, there is no helping you. Those guys were clearly superior to the players who made team Canada, and in some cases any other player in the tournament as well. We might see something similar with both teams in this series though. Nugent-Hopkins is clearly out, and I wouldn't be shocked if someone like Yakupov does not participate as well.

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05-14-2012, 10:47 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by Yakushev72 View Post
Let's be honest, if the World Juniors are any indication, things have been tailing off a bit for Canada. I look for the Russians to acquit themselves very well.
If you want to be completely honest, Canada "tailing off" at the world juniors in the last three years is an illusion. The fact is more of Canada's best junior-aged players are making the NHL than ever before and it's affected its ability to win of late. Canada used to average three or four no-shows every year for this tournament. Three years ago in Buffalo it peaked at nine. How many teams would make the finals like Canada did that year with that level of decimation? This year it was six. I know some would like to believe Canada's development is slipping, but it's not.

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05-14-2012, 11:15 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by Macman View Post
If you want to be completely honest, Canada "tailing off" at the world juniors in the last three years is an illusion. The fact is more of Canada's best junior-aged players are making the NHL than ever before and it's affected its ability to win of late. Canada used to average three or four no-shows every year for this tournament. Three years ago in Buffalo it peaked at nine. How many teams would make the finals like Canada did that year with that level of decimation? This year it was six. I know some would like to believe Canada's development is slipping, but it's not.
I think, to an extent, Canadians are blinded by the overhyping done by TSN. Yes, Canada does produce more high quality players. But for 1 team (12 forwards) MORE is not THAT important. I don't think that THE quality it self is higher than that of the top Russian juniors. You name RNH, Couturier, Hall, Kane,Seguin,Skinner..- we could name Burmistrov, Kuznetsov, Tarasenko, Kucherov, Yakupov, Grigorenko, Gusev, Kosov and so on. Quality is match for match in recent years. The difference is your perception of Canadian players and the reality is quiet different. 99% of Canadian fans only follow NHL and CHL. Myself and other Russian posters usually follow NHL, CHL AND KHL, MHL. It does gives us a more objective view than your information from TSN, for example.

Defensively, no question, Canada is much better.

I would say that things have cooled off on the goalie side for Canada though. Before it seemed that they would have 1 solid high quality goalie every 3-4 years. Now the goalies are OK, but not as good as before.

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05-14-2012, 11:23 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by Macman View Post
If you want to be completely honest, Canada "tailing off" at the world juniors in the last three years is an illusion. The fact is more of Canada's best junior-aged players are making the NHL than ever before and it's affected its ability to win of late. Canada used to average three or four no-shows every year for this tournament. Three years ago in Buffalo it peaked at nine. How many teams would make the finals like Canada did that year with that level of decimation? This year it was six. I know some would like to believe Canada's development is slipping, but it's not.
By tailing off, I am only saying that Canada hasn't won a Gold in the last three years, after having won Gold several years in a row, including 2007. I don't necessarily think that Canada's development is dropping off - I don't know a reason to conclude that it has gotten better in the last few years, but it certainly hasn't gotten worse. What I am saying is that a lot of the teenagers who go to the NHL and do well (e.g, 20-25 goals) are not superstars. Yes, they are better than a number of players on their NHL team at age 18, but a lot of those NHL players are marginal, only in the big league for a short time, and so not surprisingly, someone like Matt Duchene or Taylor Hall is going to come in and pass them by.

These kids at the U20 national team level from Sweden, the United States, Russia and Finland are really good, and there is just no way that the Evander Kanes of the world are going to step on the ice and dominate them. They don't dominate in the NHL, and these kids are right at NHL caliber.

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05-14-2012, 11:41 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by Fulcrum View Post
I think, to an extent, Canadians are blinded by the overhyping done by TSN. Yes, Canada does produce more high quality players. But for 1 team (12 forwards) MORE is not THAT important. I don't think that THE quality it self is higher than that of the top Russian juniors. You name RNH, Couturier, Hall, Kane,Seguin,Skinner..- we could name Burmistrov, Kuznetsov, Tarasenko, Kucherov, Yakupov, Grigorenko, Gusev, Kosov and so on. Quality is match for match in recent years. The difference is your perception of Canadian players and the reality is quiet different.

I would say that things have cooled off on the goalie side for Canada though. Before it seemed that they would have 1 solid high quality goalie every 3-4 years. Now the goalies are OK, but not as good as before.
I don't disagree with what you've said. The difference between Canada and Russia, though, at the junior level is the frustrating lack of availability of many of Canada's top players for the world juniors. Of the six you named, three never played a single game at the WJC and Hall and Kane only played as 17 year olds. I know you guys get sick of hearing Canadians compain about it, but it's frustrating and no one else has had to deal with it at anywhere near the level that we do because your top junior players, with the exception of a very few, stay home. You'll definitely miss Yakupov this year, though.

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05-15-2012, 02:43 AM
  #81
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it is so typical for Canadians... "hey we could ice three teams that would finish 1a, 1b, 1c" and then suddently "we missed player X that would have singlehandedly won us everything by scoring hat-tricks every game".

PS You don't accept a defeat in any form. Which is good and bad simultaneously.

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05-15-2012, 07:10 AM
  #82
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Originally Posted by DamonDRW View Post
it is so typical for Canadians... "hey we could ice three teams that would finish 1a, 1b, 1c" and then suddently "we missed player X that would have singlehandedly won us everything by scoring hat-tricks every game".

PS You don't accept a defeat in any form. Which is good and bad simultaneously.
Well, if you can find a post where I've ever said any of the above and I'd agree with you.

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05-15-2012, 08:26 AM
  #83
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First of all, it's not canada's B team, there are quite a few individuals who would be A team players, then there are quite a few individuals who would be B team players and some prospects, so it's a mixed bag, but saying it's a B team suggests these are the players you would put into your B team if your A team was around, which is simply not the case.

Second of all, all medal contenders at the WC are missing players, some declined, some are still in the playoffs, so like every world championships, it's the best what's available and willing vs the best what's available and willing, it's the same for everyone.

I don't think the rest of the hockey world really gives a rat's ass about what canada follows or not, we are having fun at the world championships each year because it's a quality international hockey(from the QF onwards but also some of the group matches).
No, its not the same for everyone.. Canada and USA are composed entirely of NHL players.. They will always have limited selection for this tournament, while countries like Russia have their pick with the exception of a few players..

I would bet maybe 5 Canadian skaters make the olympic team, give or take.


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Originally Posted by Yakushev72 View Post
You did a perfect job of laying out all the reasons why, even if Canada loses the WC, they still win based on "if only this, if only that!" If Canada should win gold, then you can say that even with a fifth-rate team, you are superior to the rest of the world. If you lose, its for all the reasons that you lay out above.
No, when we lose, nobody will care... They show WC highlights after baseball and tennis here... Literally, nobody cares.

If they win, we laugh because we know we shouldn't have.
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Originally Posted by Yakushev72 View Post
Some of the guys you named did play in the WJC, if I recall correctly (Kane, Hall, Couturier, Johansson). Regardless of what year they didn't play, they weren't dominant in the years that they did. They didn't lead Canada to Gold. It seems that your statement may be based on the fact that these kids played respectably in the NHL immediately at a young age. But that doesn't mean that they are necessarily dominant talents. Historically, it has not been unusual for teenagers to have an immediate impact in the NHL. That is especially true now, because the talent pool is stretched thin with 30 teams to staff. I don't think its a given that if a kid plays well in the NHL, he would automatically dominate in the WJC.
Yea, as 18 year olds. Its a 19 year olds tournament... Those players at 19 would have significantly improved the team... That list doesn't include Matt Duchene, Ryan O'Reilly or Jeff Skinner and I'm sure theres more. That wasn't the storyline though, nobody really spoke about that... We played with the players available.

Oh, and Evander Kane most certainly won gold. Up until the last 2 or 3 years, Canada won 5 straight.. It seems as though that minor detail has eluded you.

Alex Burmistrov and Dmitri Kulikov are the only 2 players in recent memory I can think of that made the NHL while still eligible for the WJC... Maybe theres more, but for the most part, Russia has their best available. The same can't be said for Canada yet we still dominate the all time podium.

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05-15-2012, 08:34 AM
  #84
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Originally Posted by Fulcrum View Post
I think, to an extent, Canadians are blinded by the overhyping done by TSN. Yes, Canada does produce more high quality players. But for 1 team (12 forwards) MORE is not THAT important. I don't think that THE quality it self is higher than that of the top Russian juniors. You name RNH, Couturier, Hall, Kane,Seguin,Skinner..- we could name Burmistrov, Kuznetsov, Tarasenko, Kucherov, Yakupov, Grigorenko, Gusev, Kosov and so on. Quality is match for match in recent years. The difference is your perception of Canadian players and the reality is quiet different. 99% of Canadian fans only follow NHL and CHL. Myself and other Russian posters usually follow NHL, CHL AND KHL, MHL. It does gives us a more objective view than your information from TSN, for example.

Defensively, no question, Canada is much better.

I would say that things have cooled off on the goalie side for Canada though. Before it seemed that they would have 1 solid high quality goalie every 3-4 years. Now the goalies are OK, but not as good as before.
The Canadian players named have already made an impact at the NHL level, most at 18.. Burmistrov is a comparible.... But those other no names mean nothing. Kuznetsov and Tarasenko are promising prospects, but they're now 2 and 3 years removed from their draft and yet to set foot on NHL ice. Your comparison isn't really comparible... I'm sorry, but theres way to many Russian 'superstars' who come to the NHL and run home with their tail between their legs.. If those Russian players named were 18 and 19 and making impacts in the best league in the world, then you have an arguement...


Oh, and believe it or not, we're capable of forming opinions in Canada... We aren't just puppets who spew TSN propaganda. If you look at some of these posters who you claim aren't objective, a lot of them are located in towns that are home to a major junior team. If they live in Sarnia and watch Yak on a regular basis, do you still know more then them too? I mean, apparently we aren't able to be objective...


Last edited by sparxx87: 05-15-2012 at 08:39 AM.
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Old
05-15-2012, 09:02 AM
  #85
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Originally Posted by sparxx87 View Post
No, its not the same for everyone.. Canada and USA are composed entirely of NHL players.. They will always have limited selection for this tournament, while countries like Russia have their pick with the exception of a few players..

I would bet maybe 5 Canadian skaters make the olympic team, give or take.



No, when we lose, nobody will care... They show WC highlights after baseball and tennis here... Literally, nobody cares.

If they win, we laugh because we know we shouldn't have.


Yea, as 18 year olds. Its a 19 year olds tournament... Those players at 19 would have significantly improved the team... That list doesn't include Matt Duchene, Ryan O'Reilly or Jeff Skinner and I'm sure theres more. That wasn't the storyline though, nobody really spoke about that... We played with the players available.

Oh, and Evander Kane most certainly won gold. Up until the last 2 or 3 years, Canada won 5 straight.. It seems as though that minor detail has eluded you.

Alex Burmistrov and Dmitri Kulikov are the only 2 players in recent memory I can think of that made the NHL while still eligible for the WJC... Maybe theres more, but for the most part, Russia has their best available. The same can't be said for Canada yet we still dominate the all time podium.
Duchene and Skinner are examples of what I was talking about, guys who score around 25-30 goals as young players. They aren't Sidney Crosby-type talents, and they may never score more than 30 goals in their career. They may be better than other WJC Canadians, but you can't move from that premise to Canada wins the Gold. Also, when you are talking about hypotheticals, you could as easily hypothesize that they will sustain career-ending injuries in the round robin. Operating on what might have been gives you a limitless range of options.

Also, the NHL representation is irrelevant because NHL GM's have stopped drafting Russians in number because of the lure of the KHL.

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05-15-2012, 09:05 AM
  #86
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Originally Posted by sparxx87 View Post
The Canadian players named have already made an impact at the NHL level, most at 18.. Burmistrov is a comparible.... But those other no names mean nothing. Kuznetsov and Tarasenko are promising prospects, but they're now 2 and 3 years removed from their draft and yet to set foot on NHL ice. Your comparison isn't really comparible... I'm sorry, but theres way to many Russian 'superstars' who come to the NHL and run home with their tail between their legs.. If those Russian players named were 18 and 19 and making impacts in the best league in the world, then you have an arguement...


Oh, and believe it or not, we're capable of forming opinions in Canada... We aren't just puppets who spew TSN propaganda. If you look at some of these posters who you claim aren't objective, a lot of them are located in towns that are home to a major junior team. If they live in Sarnia and watch Yak on a regular basis, do you still know more then them too? I mean, apparently we aren't able to be objective...
Again, you're overblowing the hype of the NHL. There are a lot of very average players in the NHL - it's not as if they are all Crosbys and Malkins.

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05-15-2012, 09:30 AM
  #87
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Originally Posted by sparxx87 View Post
The Canadian players named have already made an impact at the NHL level, most at 18.. Burmistrov is a comparible.... But those other no names mean nothing. Kuznetsov and Tarasenko are promising prospects, but they're now 2 and 3 years removed from their draft and yet to set foot on NHL ice. Your comparison isn't really comparible... I'm sorry, but theres way to many Russian 'superstars' who come to the NHL and run home with their tail between their legs.. If those Russian players named were 18 and 19 and making impacts in the best league in the world, then you have an arguement...


Oh, and believe it or not, we're capable of forming opinions in Canada... We aren't just puppets who spew TSN propaganda. If you look at some of these posters who you claim aren't objective, a lot of them are located in towns that are home to a major junior team. If they live in Sarnia and watch Yak on a regular basis, do you still know more then them too? I mean, apparently we aren't able to be objective...
Lol. what's the point of arguing about this? you wouldn't change your opinion either way. NHL is god, every other league in the world is ****. If they don't play in NHL or they chose to play at home- they must be ****.

I'm not saying you can't form opinions, but for Canadians to form opinions on Russian players, whom they've only watched in WJC is NOT objective (except maybe Yakupov, Grigo). And that is exactly what you did above! From what you said about our top prospects, I can tell just how little you know of them. Please tell me about Kalinin, Panarin, Dvurechenskiy, Kosov, Prokhorkin, Marchenko, Gusev, Kucherov, Arzamastsev- I can keep going.... Do you even know any of them?! Did you know that they are considered very talented by the Russian experts and even NHL scouts? Did you know that most of them made a mark in the 2nd best league in the world this year? How was their season? Who stood out the most? Who is going to be invited to the NT?

And then Canadians act surprised when their team is loosing 6-1 in WJC to Russians. "How could our deep amazing Canadian team lose to these Russian 'superstars'?" "If only we had..."


Last edited by Fulcrum: 05-15-2012 at 09:38 AM.
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05-15-2012, 10:55 AM
  #88
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then factor that Moscow is roughly 1/3 population of the entire country of Canada. Just putting it in perspective.
It's not really about population, but how much of that population involved into hockey. Otherwise we could bring China and a lot of other highly populated countries. Moscow has roughly 40 indoor rinks, Canada ~2500. In total Russia has ~340 indoor rinks spread through 9 time zones.
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Just putting it in perspective.

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05-15-2012, 11:31 AM
  #89
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[QUOTE=SH15;49688579]Against Russia it most certainly does. If Canada comes out in Game 1 and plays physically like they should, they can have the Russian players checked out of the entire series before the first game is even over. I'm sorry if this sounds insulting to your players, but this is my view supported by watching Canada/Russia junior games for my entire life.

Obviously Russians or those cheering for Russia would not agree with me. Nor should I expect you to. I tried to be respectful in stating my respect for Russian hockey and that the views were just how I see the series playing out. Obviously I did not do a good enough job since you look forward to me "eating my words". We shall see. I'll tell you this, when there is any Junior hockey event with no NHL to remove players from Canada's roster, the results are undeniable.

You cheer for Russia. I'll cheer for Canada. I have a feeling it's going to be a rough 4 games for you in every sense of the word.[/QUOT

Love it!!! Go CANADA long live Don Cherry

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05-15-2012, 11:53 AM
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They shaved it down to only 4 games, not a bad idea, they should do it every year.

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05-15-2012, 12:28 PM
  #91
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They shaved it down to only 4 games, not a bad idea, they should do it every year.
every other year to hype it up more

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05-15-2012, 02:30 PM
  #92
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Originally Posted by Fulcrum View Post
I think, to an extent, Canadians are blinded by the overhyping done by TSN. Yes, Canada does produce more high quality players. But for 1 team (12 forwards) MORE is not THAT important. I don't think that THE quality it self is higher than that of the top Russian juniors. You name RNH, Couturier, Hall, Kane,Seguin,Skinner..- we could name Burmistrov, Kuznetsov, Tarasenko, Kucherov, Yakupov, Grigorenko, Gusev, Kosov and so on. Quality is match for match in recent years. The difference is your perception of Canadian players and the reality is quiet different. 99% of Canadian fans only follow NHL and CHL. Myself and other Russian posters usually follow NHL, CHL AND KHL, MHL. It does gives us a more objective view than your information from TSN, for example.
Why would you name those Russian players? He listed players missed the tournament in years that they were eligible. The guys you listed have all played for Russia every possible year (thus far), with the exception of Burmistrov. That is the point, and you completely missed it.

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Originally Posted by Fulcrum View Post
I would say that things have cooled off on the goalie side for Canada though. Before it seemed that they would have 1 solid high quality goalie every 3-4 years. Now the goalies are OK, but not as good as before.
Sad and true.

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05-15-2012, 03:04 PM
  #93
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Why would you name those Russian players? He listed players missed the tournament in years that they were eligible. The guys you listed have all played for Russia every possible year (thus far), with the exception of Burmistrov. That is the point, and you completely missed it.



Sad and true.
And you missed my point. I'm talking the quality of the top players. And not those who missed it or didn't...

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05-15-2012, 03:07 PM
  #94
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because they were too busy dominating the NHL against real men.

Yeah, so was Kulikov but dont pretend like he would have made a difference or is even comparable to Ryan Nugent - Hopkins.
..I'd say Kulikov is comparable to Hopkins..

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05-15-2012, 03:10 PM
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And don't forget the last two WJCs...
Two interesting and exciting games. One featuring a monumental collapse/comeback and the other featuring a monumental near collapse/near comeback.

I hope this tournament is as exciting. :p

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05-15-2012, 03:13 PM
  #96
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LOL at the Russian contingent holding strong that the Canadian kids in the NHL wouldn't have decisively swayed the outcome at the World Juniors. The games have been razor close. Imagine all those players playing for Canada that were in the NHL instead. Having trouble picturing it? Think 2005 WJHC in North Dakota or the 2007 Summit Series.

But I never use the excuse of players not being available. The two teams go to battle as they're built. Russia has beaten Canada the past two years at the World Juniors and deserves full credit for the victories. But pretending that the Canadian kids that were in the NHL wouldn't have made that big of a difference is both blind and foolish.

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05-15-2012, 03:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Fulcrum View Post
And you missed my point. I'm talking the quality of the top players. And not those who missed it or didn't...
I really hope that you are not serious. The post that you quoted, and then responded to, was about the missing players. You then responded with the best Russian players, while that poster was only talking about the best missing Canadian players, which was still easily a stronger set of players than those you listed too.

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05-15-2012, 03:55 PM
  #98
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LOL at the Russian contingent holding strong that the Canadian kids in the NHL wouldn't have decisively swayed the outcome at the World Juniors. The games have been razor close. Imagine all those players playing for Canada that were in the NHL instead. Having trouble picturing it? Think 2005 WJHC in North Dakota or the 2007 Summit Series.

But I never use the excuse of players not being available. The two teams go to battle as they're built. Russia has beaten Canada the past two years at the World Juniors and deserves full credit for the victories. But pretending that the Canadian kids that were in the NHL wouldn't have made that big of a difference is both blind and foolish.
I'm anxious to see whether Canada can back up what you guys are saying that they will do. All your very best will be there, so there will no avenues of excuse open to you. I will be waiting to see whether they disappoint by having close games or even losing a game or two. By your posts, even one win for Russia means that we are nipping at your heels on the road to surpassing you. I will be interested to see what is said if Canada chokes and loses a game.

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05-15-2012, 04:17 PM
  #99
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LOL at the Russian contingent holding strong that the Canadian kids in the NHL wouldn't have decisively swayed the outcome at the World Juniors. The games have been razor close. Imagine all those players playing for Canada that were in the NHL instead. Having trouble picturing it? Think 2005 WJHC in North Dakota or the 2007 Summit Series.
The two best eligible Canadian players (at the time) did not play in the 2007 SS.

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05-15-2012, 04:51 PM
  #100
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Posts: 3,174
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DamonDRW View Post
it is so typical for Canadians... "hey we could ice three teams that would finish 1a, 1b, 1c" and then suddently "we missed player X that would have singlehandedly won us everything by scoring hat-tricks every game".

PS You don't accept a defeat in any form. Which is good and bad simultaneously.
You're confusing junior players, where there is a small window ages 18-20, and professional where there are ages 18-40+. Obviously Canada cant field 3 amazing junior teams, but it's not a stretch to think that a b and c Canadian team could hold their own .

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