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2012 Canada-Russia junior summit

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07-03-2012, 02:43 PM
  #176
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I think the internet no matter what language is predominate on a particular forum is open to all to participate; and to rationalize it, by saying Russians can write anything they want on a Russian website because well, it's just between Russians and not meant for westerners is just wrong. Believe me, if SH 15 stepped over the line and was truly insulting to others, Russians, Canadians, Americans, I'd call him out on it. But he just wrote BS. nothing to ruffle any feathers. Come on, lets be fair. And I know it wasn't you, but the Canadian who took particular offense to it. I'll highlight to him some Russian quotes when I find them and well translate them properly so he'll get a taste of the lack of respect coming from the other side. It goes both ways..back and forth.

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07-03-2012, 02:43 PM
  #177
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Originally Posted by Fulcrum View Post
I think this year's leaders for Russia will be Yakupov, Grigorenko and maybe Kosov. Who would you say will be Canada's leaders?
I believe that Kosov will really emerge in this series and in Ufa.

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07-03-2012, 02:53 PM
  #178
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I think the internet no matter what language is predominate on a particular forum is open to all to participate; and to rationalize it, by saying Russians can write anything they want on a Russian website because well, it's just between Russians and not meant for westerners is just wrong. Believe me, if SH 15 stepped over the line and was truly insulting to others, Russians, Canadians, Americans, I'd call him out on it. But he just wrote BS. nothing to ruffle any feathers. Come on, lets be fair. And I know it wasn't you, but the Canadian who took particular offense to it. I'll highlight to him some Russian quotes when I find them and well translate them properly so he'll get a taste of the lack of respect coming from the other side. It goes both ways..back and forth.
It's just: to say that Canada will easily steamroll an opponent who beat them the last 2 years in WJC and 1 in SSS- it's disrespectful. I hear the same thing at work from most of my Canadian colleagues. Goes something like this "Oh ye, Canada will DEstroy Russia like they did in 2008 SS.."

It's like some superiority built-into some Canadian hockey minds, otherwise I don't know how to explain the cockiness.

I will agree, there are a lot of Russian fans who have a superiority complex, but they almost never watch hockey and are just glory *****- the only reason they even say anything is they are only attracted to a winning team. They are also the first ones to throw stones at their own players, coaches and systems when they lose. I've only seen a handful of these fans on HFboards though, you see most of them on mainstream Russian sites, when they jump between Putin discussions and sports.

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07-03-2012, 02:55 PM
  #179
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Originally Posted by Fulcrum View Post
I think this year's leaders for Russia will be Yakupov, Grigorenko and maybe Kosov. Who would you say will be Canada's leaders?
Well, that's interesting. I believe Hockey Canada didn't pick the team correctly. There are 5 players maybe I would not have anywhere near that team, but time will tell. I would have said the hell with the Ivan Hlinka tournament and would have taken a few 1995 born players.

Leaders will have to be the 1993 born players Huberdeau, Scheiffle, Rattie along with the 2 Big D-men in Hamilton and Murray.
1994 born player Hunter Shinkaruk is a real beauty and could be great or he could struggle in his first U20 tournament. I'm anxious to see what Shinkaruk will do. And I look for two 1994 D-men Reilly and Dumba to play well. I think Canada's strength is in the defensemen. but then again I thought that at the Xmas tournament in Edmonton/Calgary and our D had a rough game in the semi-final. so who knows...kids, it's difficult to predict. Another reason why I think the 2007 series was so one sided I believe is summer conditioning of players. I think the Canadians were better conditioned and in mid-season form in August whereas Nemchinov didn't really have the kids trained and in game shape so early. Just a thought...I don't know one way or another how Russian junior players go through their off-season training.

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07-03-2012, 02:58 PM
  #180
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Originally Posted by Yakushev72 View Post
I believe that Kosov will really emerge in this series and in Ufa.
He certainly has the size and the skill. I hope the coach recognizes the potential

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07-03-2012, 03:03 PM
  #181
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Well, that's interesting. I believe Hockey Canada didn't pick the team correctly. There are 5 players maybe I would not have anywhere near that team, but time will tell. I would have said the hell with the Ivan Hlinka tournament and would have taken a few 1995 born players.

Leaders will have to be the 1993 born players Huberdeau, Scheiffle, Rattie along with the 2 Big D-men in Hamilton and Murray.
1994 born player Hunter Shinkaruk is a real beauty and could be great or he could struggle in his first U20 tournament. I'm anxious to see what Shinkaruk will do. And I look for two 1994 D-men Reilly and Dumba to play well. I think Canada's strength is in the defensemen. but then again I thought that at the Xmas tournament in Edmonton/Calgary and our D had a rough game in the semi-final. so who knows...kids, it's difficult to predict. Another reason why I think the 2007 series was so one sided I believe is summer conditioning of players. I think the Canadians were better conditioned and in mid-season form in August whereas Nemchinov didn't really have the kids trained and in game shape so early. Just a thought...I don't know one way or another how Russian junior players go through their off-season training.
Interesting. I agree, Canada's D will be Very good. Especially Reilly.

Russian jr teams usually start camp last week of June or July 1st. 2007 team was run by completely inexperienced Nemchinov- that answers ALL of the questions.

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07-03-2012, 03:05 PM
  #182
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Originally Posted by Mr Writer View Post
Well, that's interesting. I believe Hockey Canada didn't pick the team correctly. There are 5 players maybe I would not have anywhere near that team, but time will tell. I would have said the hell with the Ivan Hlinka tournament and would have taken a few 1995 born players.

Leaders will have to be the 1993 born players Huberdeau, Scheiffle, Rattie along with the 2 Big D-men in Hamilton and Murray.
1994 born player Hunter Shinkaruk is a real beauty and could be great or he could struggle in his first U20 tournament. I'm anxious to see what Shinkaruk will do. And I look for two 1994 D-men Reilly and Dumba to play well. I think Canada's strength is in the defensemen. but then again I thought that at the Xmas tournament in Edmonton/Calgary and our D had a rough game in the semi-final. so who knows...kids, it's difficult to predict. Another reason why I think the 2007 series was so one sided I believe is summer conditioning of players. I think the Canadians were better conditioned and in mid-season form in August whereas Nemchinov didn't really have the kids trained and in game shape so early. Just a thought...I don't know one way or another how Russian junior players go through their off-season training.
I'm also surpsised at how EARLY the Canadian team was picked. Doesn't really make sense to me.

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07-03-2012, 03:06 PM
  #183
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Originally Posted by Fulcrum View Post
Interesting. I agree, Canada's D will be Very good. Especially Reilly.

Russian jr teams usually start camp last week of June or July 1st. 2007 team was run by completely inexperienced Nemchinov- that answers ALL of the questions.
Well, I'll be monitoring the Russian sports websites waiting to read articles on the up-coming series..which is now only a month away. Wow! Can't wait.

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07-03-2012, 03:11 PM
  #184
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Originally Posted by Fulcrum View Post
I'm also surpsised at how EARLY the Canadian team was picked. Doesn't really make sense to me.
believe me, Hockey Canada's chief scout which picks all junior team U18 and U20 in collaboration with the coaching staff, is viewed by most Canadians as Nemchinov is viewed by Russians, as being completely not fit for the job.

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07-03-2012, 03:20 PM
  #185
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And another player I'm interested in seeing is 1993 born Kevin Roy. He played in the USHL last year and is going to US collage. He was a 13 year old phenom, but he's one of this highly skilled small players that gets over looked by Canadian junior clubs...or maybe he never wanted to play Canadian junior hockey... not sure of his history. He was famous when he was 13, but then fell off the map, but now Hockey Canada wants to take a look.

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07-03-2012, 07:09 PM
  #186
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Originally Posted by Mr Writer View Post
Well, that's interesting. I believe Hockey Canada didn't pick the team correctly. There are 5 players maybe I would not have anywhere near that team, but time will tell. I would have said the hell with the Ivan Hlinka tournament and would have taken a few 1995 born players.

Leaders will have to be the 1993 born players Huberdeau, Scheiffle, Rattie along with the 2 Big D-men in Hamilton and Murray.
1994 born player Hunter Shinkaruk is a real beauty and could be great or he could struggle in his first U20 tournament. I'm anxious to see what Shinkaruk will do. And I look for two 1994 D-men Reilly and Dumba to play well. I think Canada's strength is in the defensemen. but then again I thought that at the Xmas tournament in Edmonton/Calgary and our D had a rough game in the semi-final. so who knows...kids, it's difficult to predict. Another reason why I think the 2007 series was so one sided I believe is summer conditioning of players. I think the Canadians were better conditioned and in mid-season form in August whereas Nemchinov didn't really have the kids trained and in game shape so early. Just a thought...I don't know one way or another how Russian junior players go through their off-season training.
I was really impressed with Huberdeau, Schieffle, Hamilton and Murray in the WJC. Also, I saw Dumba in the WJC U18, and he really caught my eye. There is no question that Canada will be deep at every position, and highly motivated. The key for the Russians is to survive the storm early, because the Canadians typically try to jump on top early to take their opponent out of the game, to get them to stop believing.

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07-04-2012, 12:08 AM
  #187
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Originally Posted by SH15 View Post
2007 8-Game Series

4 - 2 Canada
3 - 0 Canada
6 - 2 Canada
4 - 2 Canada
8 - 1 Canada
4 - 1 Canada
4 - 4 Draw
6 - 1 Canada

And the Russians agreed to do this again?
Ay, I'm usually quick to praise Canada but Russia has handed it to us at the last two WJC's. That 07 team was unreal, while the Russian team was not great. This time should be closer.

I do still think Canada has a slight edge. It won't be the same thrashing we gave them last time, and I wouldn't be surprised if the Russians got the better of us.

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07-04-2012, 03:50 AM
  #188
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Originally Posted by Yakushev72 View Post
I was really impressed with Huberdeau, Schieffle, Hamilton and Murray in the WJC. Also, I saw Dumba in the WJC U18, and he really caught my eye. There is no question that Canada will be deep at every position, and highly motivated. The key for the Russians is to survive the storm early, because the Canadians typically try to jump on top early to take their opponent out of the game, to get them to stop believing.
Well, that's where we differ. I wasn't overly impressed with any of them at the U20. Huberdeau I'll cut some slack as he was out with a broken angle for most of the fall leading up to the tournament and wasn't in game shape. I'm not convinced Schieffle is a real player yet. He was a surprise high pick in the 2011 draft and had an exceptional first professional training camp, that's pretty much all he's done. I'd rate 16 year old Nathan Mackinnon as a better centerman than him today, even though I'd prefer to see Nathan Mackinnon to play on the wing. Mackinnon is one of the 16 year olds (soon turning 17) I'd have on the team. Schieffle should be on the team, but he's in no way shape or form Canada's # 1 1993 born centermen. Which would be Ryan Nugent Hopkins. Shieffle still has a lot to prove in my estimation. Hamilton and Murray I like, but I thought their play was average at the U20 and Murray had some real crappy puck luck in the semi-final loss where not one bounce went his way. But that's hockey, crazy s*** happens sometimes.

At first when I saw the roster Hockey Canada announced I was livid...complete idiots I thought. I've since warmed up to the roster a little more. But I certainly would be taking to Yaroslavl a different roster I it were me making the decisions.

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07-04-2012, 03:58 AM
  #189
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Originally Posted by Yakushev72 View Post
I was really impressed with Huberdeau, Schieffle, Hamilton and Murray in the WJC. Also, I saw Dumba in the WJC U18, and he really caught my eye. There is no question that Canada will be deep at every position, and highly motivated. The key for the Russians is to survive the storm early, because the Canadians typically try to jump on top early to take their opponent out of the game, to get them to stop believing.
And as I wrote to you a few weeks back, junior hockey tends to go in cycles, it seems the 93-94 birth years for Canada we are rich in D-men but thin in offense, but 1995-96-97 Canada is overloaded with offensive talent and only 2 or 3 d-men in that group have emerged as of yet.

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07-04-2012, 11:34 AM
  #190
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Well, that's where we differ. I wasn't overly impressed with any of them at the U20. Huberdeau I'll cut some slack as he was out with a broken angle for most of the fall leading up to the tournament and wasn't in game shape. I'm not convinced Schieffle is a real player yet. He was a surprise high pick in the 2011 draft and had an exceptional first professional training camp, that's pretty much all he's done. I'd rate 16 year old Nathan Mackinnon as a better centerman than him today, even though I'd prefer to see Nathan Mackinnon to play on the wing. Mackinnon is one of the 16 year olds (soon turning 17) I'd have on the team. Schieffle should be on the team, but he's in no way shape or form Canada's # 1 1993 born centermen. Which would be Ryan Nugent Hopkins. Shieffle still has a lot to prove in my estimation. Hamilton and Murray I like, but I thought their play was average at the U20 and Murray had some real crappy puck luck in the semi-final loss where not one bounce went his way. But that's hockey, crazy s*** happens sometimes.

At first when I saw the roster Hockey Canada announced I was livid...complete idiots I thought. I've since warmed up to the roster a little more. But I certainly would be taking to Yaroslavl a different roster I it were me making the decisions.
I noticed that Nugent-Hopkins wasn't on the initial roster issued by Hockey Canada, but is it a sure thing that he won't play? Based on the dates, it shouldn't interfere with Oilers camp in any way.

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07-04-2012, 11:41 AM
  #191
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Ay, I'm usually quick to praise Canada but Russia has handed it to us at the last two WJC's. That 07 team was unreal, while the Russian team was not great. This time should be closer.

I do still think Canada has a slight edge. It won't be the same thrashing we gave them last time, and I wouldn't be surprised if the Russians got the better of us.
I believe that coaching is critical, and Brent Sutter is arguably the best coach that the Canadian junior program ever had. I can't think of anyone better than him over the years. In addition to talent, Canada had a huge advantage in coaching in 2007, IMO. Since both of the coaches this year are new to being head coach at the junior natonal team level, its hard to assess which side has the advantage here. The only thing I could say is that of the two, Varnakov was definitely the better player, although I'm not sure how that counts for anything.

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07-04-2012, 11:58 AM
  #192
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I noticed that Nugent-Hopkins wasn't on the initial roster issued by Hockey Canada, but is it a sure thing that he won't play? Based on the dates, it shouldn't interfere with Oilers camp in any way.
Hockey Canada doesn't see the logic in it, as the Oilers won't release him for the World Championships in Ufa this Christmas, then HC believes it makes no sense including him in the summer tournament. That's their rationale. Let somebody else play who may play at Christmas time. I'm not so worried about, if that's all we are missing is one player, I wish Canada had the luxury of every Christmas missing only 1 player. Again though, if I were making the decisions, then RNH would be on the list and would be playing.

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07-05-2012, 12:28 PM
  #193
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Hockey Canada doesn't see the logic in it, as the Oilers won't release him for the World Championships in Ufa this Christmas, then HC believes it makes no sense including him in the summer tournament. That's their rationale. Let somebody else play who may play at Christmas time. I'm not so worried about, if that's all we are missing is one player, I wish Canada had the luxury of every Christmas missing only 1 player. Again though, if I were making the decisions, then RNH would be on the list and would be playing.
It would have been fun to see him play. Sometimes, the presence of a superstar (it may be too early to grant him that title at his age) can result in overshadowing other players and relieving them of the responsibility for being accountable for winning. But I'm sure most Canadian fans would be willing to take that risk to have him in the lineup.

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07-05-2012, 02:10 PM
  #194
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It would have been fun to see him play. Sometimes, the presence of a superstar (it may be too early to grant him that title at his age) can result in overshadowing other players and relieving them of the responsibility for being accountable for winning. But I'm sure most Canadian fans would be willing to take that risk to have him in the lineup.
aha, i.e. Giroux out from underneath Mike Richards shadow in Philly. Can't wait to see the Stamkos-Crosby-Giroux line tear it up in Sochi. That's if Crosby and Giroux can kiss and make up and play for 3 weeks without it coming to punches in the sochi dormitory
BTW What part of Russia are you from?

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07-06-2012, 10:41 AM
  #195
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aha, i.e. Giroux out from underneath Mike Richards shadow in Philly. Can't wait to see the Stamkos-Crosby-Giroux line tear it up in Sochi. That's if Crosby and Giroux can kiss and make up and play for 3 weeks without it coming to punches in the sochi dormitory
BTW What part of Russia are you from?
Which one would be the role player on that line? I guess it would have to be Crosby. Unfortunately for the game of hockey, we all know that Crosby is just one hard hit away from retirement. I am sincere when I say that I hope that he can make it to Sochi fully intact.

Why do you assume that I live in Russia? My origins were in the New York Oblast, west of Moscow. When I was a young boy, we moved to the San Francisco Oblast, also far west of Moscow. A few years later, we moved to the St. Paul Oblast, where I mostly grew up. I currently reside in the Texas Krai, near Dallas.

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07-06-2012, 10:53 AM
  #196
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Which one would be the role player on that line? I guess it would have to be Crosby. Unfortunately for the game of hockey, we all know that Crosby is just one hard hit away from retirement. I am sincere when I say that I hope that he can make it to Sochi fully intact.

Why do you assume that I live in Russia? My origins were in the New York Oblast, west of Moscow. When I was a young boy, we moved to the San Francisco Oblast, also far west of Moscow. A few years later, we moved to the St. Paul Oblast, where I mostly grew up. I currently reside in the Texas Krai, near Dallas.
The question doesn't assume you live in Russia currently. It was my assumption that you are from Russia.

One hit away? Everybody is one hit away from retirement. This concussion thing is way over blown. The young generation today is so coddled. Regardless if Crosby makes it to Sochi or not, Canada will be in good shape. If Towes misses, I'll be a lot more worried.

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07-06-2012, 12:49 PM
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The question doesn't assume you live in Russia currently. It was my assumption that you are from Russia.

One hit away? Everybody is one hit away from retirement. This concussion thing is way over blown. The young generation today is so coddled. Regardless if Crosby makes it to Sochi or not, Canada will be in good shape. If Towes misses, I'll be a lot more worried.
Not sure that the concussion thing is overblown. The more we learn about concussions, the more it appears that they have been underestimated and undervalued by sports team management. Do you remember last summer when three NHL fighters committed suicide within weeks of each other. I have to believe it is from the constant concussion of having your head beat in.

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07-06-2012, 01:24 PM
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Not sure that the concussion thing is overblown. The more we learn about concussions, the more it appears that they have been underestimated and undervalued by sports team management. Do you remember last summer when three NHL fighters committed suicide within weeks of each other. I have to believe it is from the constant concussion of having your head beat in.

It's kind of silly to make that connection. Just because they are hockey players they are not impervious to the same mental health issues as everybody else society in general. The statics can't support that claim yet as their are other professional groups where the rates of suicide are a lot higher and they are not generally prone to on the job concussion risks. If 30% of society suffers from some sort of metal health issue, then it only makes sense that 30% of hockey players will also have those issues. 1 + 1 doesn't always = 2. We have to come up with a lot more research. Of course it doesn't help getting your head pounded for 20 years, but it isn't the sole contributing factor here.

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07-07-2012, 12:26 PM
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It's kind of silly to make that connection. Just because they are hockey players they are not impervious to the same mental health issues as everybody else society in general. The statics can't support that claim yet as their are other professional groups where the rates of suicide are a lot higher and they are not generally prone to on the job concussion risks. If 30% of society suffers from some sort of metal health issue, then it only makes sense that 30% of hockey players will also have those issues. 1 + 1 doesn't always = 2. We have to come up with a lot more research. Of course it doesn't help getting your head pounded for 20 years, but it isn't the sole contributing factor here.
When 3 designated fighters commit suicide within weeks of each other, all of whom had suffered severe headaches and adverse symptoms from concussion, it didn't seem at all silly to make a connection. Maybe you haven't had time to keep up on the physiology of concussion, but the medical consensus is that concussions are both cumulative and progressive. The effects of each subsequent concussion are progressively worse, and at the same time, it takes progressively less impact to bring on another. Thus, you had the situation with Eric Lindros, with all 6'6", 240 pounds crumpled up and unconscious on the ice after an open-ice hip check by Scott Stevens. You make it sound like its just a little scrape, no big deal, but modern sports medicine would vigorously refute your opinion on the subject.

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07-07-2012, 12:57 PM
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What about all the other multitude of players who have been fighters and /or have been drilled with the same type of hits ?

How many of them have committed suicide?

Hockey has been played for a long time and many, many have been hit hard and have engaged in fights for decades but the suicide rate doesn't seen any higher then in regular society as he mentioned.


I love boxing and I'm trying to think of any of the fighters i've known over many years and how many of them committed suicide.................can't think of one(though it's very possible a few have that I just can't bring up in memory) And those guys take a hell of a lot more shots to the head then Hockey players do.

I'm inclined to agree with Mr.Writer here until they come up with definitive proof.

You use modern medical sports science as your claim yet modern medical sports science has no definitive proof on any of this yet.

I wouldn't be shocked it could turn out it plays a part yet it's likely even if it does it doesn't play all the part.

medical science just doesn't know yet, and they may never.


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When 3 designated fighters commit suicide within weeks of each other, all of whom had suffered severe headaches and adverse symptoms from concussion, it didn't seem at all silly to make a connection. Maybe you haven't had time to keep up on the physiology of concussion, but the medical consensus is that concussions are both cumulative and progressive. The effects of each subsequent concussion are progressively worse, and at the same time, it takes progressively less impact to bring on another. Thus, you had the situation with Eric Lindros, with all 6'6", 240 pounds crumpled up and unconscious on the ice after an open-ice hip check by Scott Stevens. You make it sound like its just a little scrape, no big deal, but modern sports medicine would vigorously refute your opinion on the subject.


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