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Hey Goodenow! Lots of parity we have eh?-Cup winners last 10 years

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Old
12-16-2004, 11:19 AM
  #26
GKJ
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The way I can tell wheather or not this thread is made to make a point, or is made for people to cry about how Goodenow is an assclown is by how many people step up and say what teams were in the Conference Finals the last 7 years:

2004: Tampa Bay, Philadelphia, Calgary, San Jose
2003: Anaheim, Minnesota, New Jersey, Ottawa
2002: Carolina, Toronto, Detroit, Colorado
for anyone not following that's 12 teams in 3 years
2001: New Jersey, Pittsburgh, Colorado, St. Louis
for anyone not following that's 14 teams in 4 years
2000: New Jersey, Philadelphia, Dallas, Colorado
1999: Buffalo, Toronto, Dallas, Detroit
1998: Washington, Buffalo, Detroit, Dallas
1997: Philadelphia, New York Rangers, Colorado, Detroit

17 teams going to the Conference Finals in 7 years. I call that parity. If your team is not on this list then you're either a fan of an expansion team, or you got a ****load of idiots running your team (except maybe Vancouver) because this list includes a lot of moronic managements.

Anyone who disagrees is simply wrong. These are facts.

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12-16-2004, 11:25 AM
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Flyers Fan
Bottom line is that this lockout has absolutely nothing to do with "competitive balance". It's about money and only about money.

Well when teams cant afford their good players the teams who can not draft well, cant develop players or cant make smart trades will have a whole stock of good players to choose from. That way they can let the other teams do their work for them.

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12-16-2004, 11:27 AM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Flyers Fan

Bottom line is that this lockout has absolutely nothing to do with "competitive balance". It's about money and only about money.
I respectfully disagree John. The reason is that the small markets, regardless of drafting, and developing can't keep together a core of good young players for long term without having some sort of corrective balance in the CBA.

The balance isn't having everyone in the semi-finals. The balance is having the equal opportunity to build a team that could go there.

Edmonton with the present CBA or even a variation of the NHLPA proposal will not now, nor ever get any better than they are today. Ryan Smyth would go...Brewer would go...Edmonton would eventually have to trade them for some futures, an up and comer with "potential". The moment that the futures reaches that potential, he will have to be traded for financial reasons for some futures...and on goes the cycle.

All the while every year, the Oilers will fight for that final playoff spot at the end of the year.

Let's forget the CBA. Last year I predicted the Oilers in 8th. Same the year before. Same the year before that.

This is what they are talking about.

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12-16-2004, 11:37 AM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slats432
I respectfully disagree John. The reason is that the small markets, regardless of drafting, and developing can't keep together a core of good young players for long term without having some sort of corrective balance in the CBA.

The balance isn't having everyone in the semi-finals. The balance is having the equal opportunity to build a team that could go there.

Edmonton with the present CBA or even a variation of the NHLPA proposal will not now, nor ever get any better than they are today. Ryan Smyth would go...Brewer would go...Edmonton would eventually have to trade them for some futures, an up and comer with "potential". The moment that the futures reaches that potential, he will have to be traded for financial reasons for some futures...and on goes the cycle.

All the while every year, the Oilers will fight for that final playoff spot at the end of the year.

Let's forget the CBA. Last year I predicted the Oilers in 8th. Same the year before. Same the year before that.

This is what they are talking about.
#1. I didn't say that a new cap wouldn't help the Oilers. My point was that "competitive balance" isn't the reason why we're having this lockout. The reason is for the owners to make money, if competitive balance is a byproduct, than so be it.

#2. Is it more difficult for the Oilers than some other teams to build a top team? Yes, it certainly is. However finances are far from the only reason the Oilers have struggled over the last decade or more. The Oilers were one of the worst drafting teams in the NHL for over a decade. If the Oilers had drafted like Quebec or Ottawa when they consistantly had picks from #4-#13 during the 1990's, they'd be fighting for more than just the 8th playoff spot.

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12-16-2004, 11:52 AM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Flyers Fan
If the Oilers had drafted like Quebec or Ottawa when they consistantly had picks from #4-#13 during the 1990's, they'd be fighting for more than just the 8th playoff spot.
So would still having Curtis Joseph, Doug Weight and Bill Guerin.

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12-16-2004, 12:07 PM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slats432
So would still having Curtis Joseph, Doug Weight and Bill Guerin.
Edmonton isn't the only team that loses players due to money.

The Devils let Mogilny and Holik walk due to money.

Ottawa had to let Yashin and Bonk go due to money.

San Jose couldn't afford to keep Nolan and Selanne.

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12-16-2004, 12:44 PM
  #32
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I do agree on the drafting aspect. Yeah they run their team well enough for what they got now but if they even had better drafting then they would be in a much higher position. I think they have drafted well now in the new era after Fraser left. Here are some of their picks and where they are now.

91-Tyler Wright(12th-NHL-Colombus), Martin Rucinsky(20th-NHL-Free Agent),David Oliver(144th-NHL-Dallas)

92-Joe Hulbig(13th-AHL-Albany River Rats), Maltby(65th-NHL-DET)

93-Arnott(7th-NHL-DAL), Nick Stajduhar(16th-Think he's done),Satan(111th-NHL-BUF)

94-Jason Bonsignore(4th-Don't know what he is doing),Ryan Smyth(6th-NHL-EDM),Mike Watt(32nd-Russia-St. Petersburg SKA)

95-Steve Kelly(6th-DEl-Mannheim Eagles), Laraque(31st-NHL-EDM). Ahh I remember watching this one. Everyone booed the hell out of the Oilers staff for passing up on Shane Doan(who went 7th right after that waste of skin Kelly)

96-Boyd Devereaux(6th-NHL-PHO), Matthieu Descoteaux(19th-UHL-Kansas City Outlaws), Chris Hajt(32nd-AHL-Portland Pirates), Poti(59th-NHL-NYR), Pisani(195th-NHL-EDM)

97-Michel Riesen(14th-LNSw-Davos), Chimera(121st-NHL-PHO), Peter Sarno(141st-AHL-Manitoba)

98-Michael Henrich(13th-Played on Roadrunners last year don't know about this year?), Alex Henry(67th-NHL-MIN), Shawn Horcoff(99th-NHL-EDM)

99-Jani Rita(13th-NHL-EDM), Alexei Semenov(36th-NHL-EDM),Tony Salmelainen(42st-AHL-Edmonton),Mike Comrie(91st-NHL-PHO)

00-Alexei Mikhnov(17th-Russia-Novosibirsk Siber), Brad Winchester(35th-AHL-Edmonton), Joe Cullen(211th-AH:-Edmonton), Matthew Lombardi(215th-NHL-CGY)

01-Ales Hemsky(13th-NHL-EDM), Doug Lynch(43rd-AHL-Edmonton), Jussi Markkanen(133rd-NHL-EDM), Dan Baum(215th-AHL-Edmonton)

2002-Jesse Niinimaki(15th-AHL-Edmonton), Jeff Deslauriers(31st-AHL-Edmonton),Jarret Stoll(36th-NHL-EDM),Matt Greene(44th-NCAA-Uni.North Dakota)

2003-Marc-Antoine Pouliot(22nd-QMJHL-Rimouski),Colin McDonald(51st-NCAA-Providence College), Jean-Francois Jacques(68th-QMJHL-Baie-Comeau Drakkar),Mathieu Roy(215th-AHL-Edmonton)

2004-Devan Dubnyk(14th-WHL-Kamloops Blazers),Rob Schremp(25th-OHL-London Knights)

Drafting seems to be on the ups since about '99 or so


Last edited by Hockey_Nut99: 12-16-2004 at 01:21 PM.
 
Old
12-16-2004, 12:51 PM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Flyers Fan
Edmonton isn't the only team that loses players due to money.

The Devils let Mogilny and Holik walk due to money.

Ottawa had to let Yashin and Bonk go due to money.

San Jose couldn't afford to keep Nolan and Selanne.
Glad to see you are starting to see my side..

The issue is rampant in small markets. Sure the whole thing goes back to the dollar because it is the root of all evil.

But honestly tell me that if you had your life to bet that Edmonton has the same chance with the current CBA to win a cup as Philly?

I may be on the owners side, and although I may not be a proponent of a hard cap, the industry is sick and needs to be fixed. It would also sure be nice to have a guy in the top 10 in NHL scoring again.

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12-16-2004, 01:01 PM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slats432
But honestly tell me that if you had your life to bet that Edmonton has the same chance with the current CBA to win a cup as Philly?

I may be on the owners side, and although I may not be a proponent of a hard cap, the industry is sick and needs to be fixed. It would also sure be nice to have a guy in the top 10 in NHL scoring again.
I never said that Edmonton has the "same" chance, but I see far too many people here that say, money = guaruntees success & no money = no chance.

IMO an NBA style cap would be the best compromise. The NFL cap forces far too much roster turnover, and IMO it also would lead to the UFA age being drastically lowered, somehting I'm also against.

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12-16-2004, 01:21 PM
  #35
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I do agree on the drafting aspect. Yeah they run their team well enough for what they got now but if they even had better drafting then they would be in a much higher position. I think they have drafted well now in the new era after Fraser left. Here are some of their picks and where they are now.

91-Tyler Wright(12th-NHL-Colombus), Martin Rucinsky(20th-NHL-Free Agent),David Oliver(144th-NHL-Dallas)

92-Joe Hulbig(13th-AHL-Albany River Rats), Maltby(65th-NHL-DET)

93-Arnott(7th-NHL-DAL), Nick Stajduhar(16th-Think he's done),Satan(111th-NHL-BUF)

94-Jason Bonsignore(4th-Don't know what he is doing),Ryan Smyth(6th-NHL-EDM),Mike Watt(32nd-Russia-St. Petersburg SKA)

95-Steve Kelly(6th-DEl-Mannheim Eagles), Laraque(31st-NHL-EDM). Ahh I remember watching this one. Everyone booed the hell out of the Oilers staff for passing up on Shane Doan(who went 7th right after that waste of skin Kelly)

96-Boyd Devereaux(6th-NHL-PHO), Matthieu Descoteaux(19th-UHL-Kansas City Outlaws), Chris Hajt(32nd-AHL-Portland Pirates), Poti(59th-NHL-NYR), Pisani(195th-NHL-EDM)

97-Michel Riesen(14th-LNSw-Davos), Chimera(121st-NHL-PHO), Peter Sarno(141st-AHL-Manitoba)

98-Michael Henrich(13th-Played on Roadrunners last year don't know about this year?), Alex Henry(67th-NHL-MIN), Shawn Horcoff(99th-NHL-EDM)

99-Jani Rita(13th-NHL-EDM), Alexei Semenov(36th-NHL-EDM),Tony Salmelainen(42st-AHL-Edmonton),Mike Comrie(91st-NHL-PHO)

00-Alexei Mikhnov(17th-Russia-Novosibirsk Siber), Brad Winchester(35th-AHL-Edmonton), Joe Cullen(211th-AH:-Edmonton), Matthew Lombardi(215th-NHL-CGY)

01-Ales Hemsky(13th-NHL-EDM), Doug Lynch(43rd-AHL-Edmonton), Jussi Markkanen(133rd-NHL-EDM), Dan Baum(215th-AHL-Edmonton)

2002-Jesse Niinimaki(15th-AHL-Edmonton), Jeff Deslauriers(31st-AHL-Edmonton),Jarret Stoll(36th-NHL-EDM),Matt Greene(44th-NCAA-Uni.North Dakota)

2003-Marc-Antoine Pouliot(22nd-QMJHL-Rimouski),Colin McDonald(51st-NCAA-Providence College), Jean-Francois Jacques(68th-QMJHL-Baie-Comeau Drakkar),Mathieu Roy(215th-AHL-Edmonton)

2004-Devan Dubnyk(14th-WHL-Kamloops Blazers),Rob Schremp(25th-OHL-London Knights)

Drafting seems to be on the ups since about '99 or so...

It's interesting to see how they built that 80's dynasty:

1979-Kevin Lowe(21), Mark Messier(48), Glen Anderson(69)
1980-Paul Coffey(6), Jari Kurri(69), Andy Moog(132)
1981-Grant Fuhr(8), Steve Smith(111)
1983-Jeff Beukeboom(19), Esa Tikkinen(80)
1985-Buchburger(188)
And everyone knows how they got Gretzky


Last edited by Hockey_Nut99: 12-16-2004 at 01:30 PM.
 
Old
12-16-2004, 01:28 PM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slats432
Glad to see you are starting to see my side..

The issue is rampant in small markets. Sure the whole thing goes back to the dollar because it is the root of all evil.

But honestly tell me that if you had your life to bet that Edmonton has the same chance with the current CBA to win a cup as Philly?

I may be on the owners side, and although I may not be a proponent of a hard cap, the industry is sick and needs to be fixed. It would also sure be nice to have a guy in the top 10 in NHL scoring again.
Three of the top payroll teams(Rangers , Leafs + Flyers) have won a combined 3 cups since 1967(none under the current CBA). Their chances may be better in your opinion , but the results may not support that.

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12-16-2004, 01:39 PM
  #37
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Oh my god I was in idiot to think the NHL has parity and that any team can win without a high payroll(besides Tampa)....[/QUOTE]

TB had the very good fortune of having cheap forwards. Modin off scrap heap, Fedotenko was a castoff, St. Louis was deemed too small & injury prone, and Lecavalier & Richards are too young to leverage higher salaries. WHile those were good moves (drafts, trades, etc.), the stars had to align for them to win the cup. Under the old CBA, they would never be able to keep that core together as the fan support in TB is too low.

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12-16-2004, 03:46 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by Slewfoot
Three of the top payroll teams(Rangers , Leafs + Flyers) have won a combined 3 cups since 1967(none under the current CBA). Their chances may be better in your opinion , but the results may not support that.
In the last 10 years how many times have the Leafs and Flyers missed the playoffs.(The Rangers, everyone agrees are a misnomer...pick any other large market team to add in their with the above two.)

Now, you have a better chance to win the cup if you make the playoffs every year. Which small market teams can't attest to.

I don't have the time or inclination to figure out the disparity between making the playoffs and top payroll teams.....but I would have to say that I have a pretty good idea of how that is going to look.

Anyone have an idea of the percentage of time that a team in the top third in the NHL payroll makes the playoffs in the last 10 years?

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12-16-2004, 03:48 PM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slewfoot
Three of the top payroll teams(Rangers , Leafs + Flyers) have won a combined 3 cups since 1967(none under the current CBA). Their chances may be better in your opinion , but the results may not support that.
Were the Leafs Rangers and Flyers the top paying teams for all those years?

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12-16-2004, 04:26 PM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Epsilon
Cup winners in the 15 years before that:

New York Rangers
Montreal Canadiens
Pittsburgh Penguins
Pittsburgh Penguins
Edmonton Oilers
Calgary Flames
Edmonton Oilers
Edmonton Oilers
Montreal Canadiens
Edmonton Oilers
Edmonton Oilers
New York Islanders
New York Islanders
New York Islanders
New York Islanders

Yup lots of parity there...
Thread should have ended right here.

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12-16-2004, 04:32 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by mudcrutch79
Show me a team that won the Cup by drafting poorly. I mean, for God's sake, clearly Tampa didn't just go out and purchase the Cup. They drafted well, didn't spend foolishly, and won the thing. I love how the money=Cups crew refuse to deal with Tampa.
But now that they have won, they would never be able to keep that team together under the current system because everyone on the team will want lots of more money...it's always about the money$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$!!!

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12-16-2004, 04:42 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by Newsguyone
Thread should have ended right here.
If the Oilers made a team now like they did in the 80's, how long do you think they would have been together? Not 10 years like that one(well close to 10). With the PA's proposal, salaries just go through the roof if you have success. I don't care that you make money in the playoffs etc. How did New Jersey go from being a team who had a modest payroll and was also hard to get money out of, to a team who has a payroll close to 60 million now? That's what I call salaries spiraling out of control. Those teams didn't have to go out and buy a "Shanahan" or "Hasek" or "Brett Hull" to complete their team for the playoffs.

Now with the cap situation all the salaries will go down. A player cannot ask for over 5 million everytime. There are too much things to look at. Cap room, how much cap room other teams have to make a trade with. It will keep salaries in check resulting in spread out talent. Hey a team can go get a bunch of star players but their checking line might be worse than an AHL line. It doesn't mean a ton of players will keep moving around like they do now. The difference is that smaller market teams will be able to keep certain franchise players they would have otherwise had to move in the last era.

 
Old
12-16-2004, 04:43 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by slats432
In the last 10 years how many times have the Leafs and Flyers missed the playoffs.(The Rangers, everyone agrees are a misnomer...pick any other large market team to add in their with the above two.)
How about Chicago ?
Also , I thought your question was does Edmonton have a better chance to win the cup then Philly. I didn't realize you meant a better chance to make the playoffs...

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12-16-2004, 04:46 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by GregStack
Were the Leafs Rangers and Flyers the top paying teams for all those years?
I don't know. It seems to be the consensus that these 3 are at least in the top 5-7.

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12-16-2004, 04:51 PM
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hockey_Nut99
If the Oilers made a team now like they did in the 80's, how long do you think they would have been together? Not 10 years like that one(well close to 10). With the PA's proposal, salaries just go through the roof if you have success. I don't care that you make money in the playoffs etc. How did New Jersey go from being a team who had a modest payroll and was also hard to get money out of, to a team who has a payroll close to 60 million now? That's what I call salaries spiraling out of control. Those teams didn't have to go out and buy a "Shanahan" or "Hasek" or "Brett Hull" to complete their team for the playoffs.
Hmmmm what team should have a higher payroll ???

1985 Edmonton Oilers featuring: Gretzky, Messier, Kurri, Anderson, Coffey, Fuhr, Moog, Lowe, etc. etc.

or 1985 Vancouver Canucks featuring: Sundstrom, Smyl, Gradin, Tanti, Skriko, Lidster, Petit, and Brodeur.

The more good players you have the higher your payroll should be.

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12-16-2004, 04:53 PM
  #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hockey_Nut99
With the PA's proposal, salaries just go through the roof if you have success. I don't care that you make money in the playoffs etc. How did New Jersey go from being a team who had a modest payroll and was also hard to get money out of, to a team who has a payroll close to 60 million now?
The Devils payroll gradual grew higher and higher.

Why is that ??? Their best players (Brodeur, Niedermayer, Madden, etc.)started to get older and gradually their contracts went up.

If owners used the NHLPA proposal correctly, salaries would no go through the roof until their players reached 31 years of age. Promlems happen when the owners don't use the tools given to them.

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12-16-2004, 04:55 PM
  #47
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Originally Posted by DuklaNation
Under the old CBA, they would never be able to keep that core together as the fan support in TB is too low.
This coming from a person living in Tampa. Oh wait you dont live in Tampa so you have no idea about the fan support in Tampa so I dont know how you can judge the fan support down here.

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12-16-2004, 04:57 PM
  #48
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Originally Posted by Slewfoot
How about Chicago ?
Also , I thought your question was does Edmonton have a better chance to win the cup then Philly. I didn't realize you meant a better chance to make the playoffs...
The two are related...and Chicago doesn't act like a large market team so I don't think you can count them.

The question is about parity. Philadelphia and Edmonton are two good examples. Philadelphia will be top 10 when we resume hockey and the Oilers will fight for a playoff spot. Why is that? Does the fact that the Flyers have a large payroll affect whether or not they are going to make the playoffs? Does that in effect increase their chances to win the Cup?

Higher payroll increases chances of making the playoffs and winning the cup. Hence the need for the controls to level the playing ground for all teams.

I don't necessarily believe that a hard cap is the perfect answer...but there sure is a better answer than the last NHLPA offer.

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12-16-2004, 05:04 PM
  #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slats432
The question is about parity. Philadelphia and Edmonton are two good examples. Philadelphia will be top 10 when we resume hockey and the Oilers will fight for a playoff spot. Why is that? Does the fact that the Flyers have a large payroll affect whether or not they are going to make the playoffs? Does that in effect increase their chances to win the Cup?
Having a higher payroll certainly helps, but a few other factors come into play. It isn't just $$$$.

#1. Flyers have been a better drafting team than the Oilers.

#2. Flyers privately built a new arena approx. 10 years ago. The Flyers spent money to make and be able to spend even more money on payroll.

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12-16-2004, 05:11 PM
  #50
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Originally Posted by John Flyers Fan
Having a higher payroll certainly helps, but a few other factors come into play. It isn't just $$$$.

#1. Flyers have been a better drafting team than the Oilers.

#2. Flyers privately built a new arena approx. 10 years ago. The Flyers spent money to make even more money.
John, in a small market there isn't enough cash to privately fund an arena like the first class one you guys have. Tax money was used to upgrade the old facility which is in pretty good shape.

How many Flyers draft picks were on the team last year?

And if you go here you would see that the Flyers aren't all that much better than the Oilers at the table....

But you could add Recchi, and Zhamnov and Roenick and Johnsson and Handzus and Leclair....

There have been some good moves, but many of them have to do with being able to add some buck to the payroll.

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