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Old
05-22-2012, 08:40 AM
  #51
coldsteelonice84
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Originally Posted by Bubba88 View Post
no, that would be too early.
Is this a joke? So when is it not too early, 4 straight years of losing in the 1st round after a championship? Would that be enough to make a change in who is running the show? Or should it be 5 years. What if they MISS the playoffs this coming season? Would that be too soon?

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05-22-2012, 11:16 AM
  #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HossTheBoss View Post
It all depends. If Bowman can keep the "core" relatively intact and bring in a guy like Ryan Suter and the team fails to go deep into the playoffs, then I would look at Q/Kitchen to go before Bowman. However, if higher-quality players aren't brought in this off-season/throughout the season and Chicago gets bounced early in the playoff again next season then yes, Bowman should be on the hot seat.
If this team adds Suter without shedding any major players, it's absolutely on coaching. If the club doesn't bring in at the very least an established top six forward option or a top four defender, Bowman absolutely should be on the hot seat if this team doesn't go deep.

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05-22-2012, 11:21 AM
  #53
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Originally Posted by DisgruntledHawkFan View Post
If this team adds Suter without shedding any major players, it's absolutely on coaching. If the club doesn't bring in at the very least an established top six forward option or a top four defender, Bowman absolutely should be on the hot seat if this team doesn't go deep.
Why so easy on Bowman? I don't get it. If he doesn't make any impact moves and the team misses the playoffs or loses in the 1st round for a third straight season, it would be regarded as one of the worst tenures by a GM in Chicago sports history. Why should he get YET ANOTHER season and chance after failing for years?? This is reminding me of Jerry Angelo all over again.

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05-22-2012, 12:02 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by coldsteelonice84 View Post
Why so easy on Bowman? I don't get it. If he doesn't make any impact moves and the team misses the playoffs or loses in the 1st round for a third straight season, it would be regarded as one of the worst tenures by a GM in Chicago sports history. Why should he get YET ANOTHER season and chance after failing for years?? This is reminding me of Jerry Angelo all over again.
Another season? This has essentially been his team for one year. This is Bowman's make or break summer to get some higher quality role players. A lot of the issues last year WERE coaching. 26th ranked PP in league with 5 olympians on the 1st unit? What??

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05-22-2012, 12:04 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by LetEmKnow View Post
Another season? This has essentially been his team for one year. This is Bowman's make or break summer to get some higher quality role players. A lot of the issues last year WERE coaching. 26th ranked PP in league with 5 olympians on the 1st unit? What??
I'm just saying a repeat of last years performance by Bowman is too much to bear.

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05-22-2012, 12:14 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by coldsteelonice84 View Post
I'm just saying a repeat of last years performance by Bowman is too much to bear.
What mistakes did he really make? The mistakes you could argue he made were very small and have no impact on the Hawks future plans. Q was a fan of Bruno/Mayers. Frolik/Crawford signings were very standard. Nobody saw them being insignificant pieces this year. I believe Frolik was completely mismanaged by Q. Q would play slugs like John Scott over Frolik. Frolik's playing in WC. Was one of the best forwards again in the playoffs. Q arguably wasn't untilizing the roster like he should have. And Kopecky got paid 2.175m more to put up less points than Stalberg. Campbell needed to go. Olesz was just the only way that deal was getting done.

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05-22-2012, 12:18 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by LetEmKnow View Post
What mistakes did he really make? The mistakes you could argue he made were very small and have no impact on the Hawks future plans. Q was a fan of Bruno/Mayers. Frolik/Crawford signings were very standard. Nobody saw them being insignificant pieces this year. I believe Frolik was completely mismanaged by Q. Q would play slugs like John Scott over Frolik. Frolik's playing in WC. Was one of the best forwards again in the playoffs. Q arguably wasn't untilizing the roster like he should have. And Kopecky got paid 2.175m more to put up less points than Stalberg. Campbell needed to go. Olesz was just the only way that deal was getting done.
I looked at this roster after the TD and saw a 1st round loser. That's what we got. It's what we still have. Bowman needs to fix that and it is going to take a hell of a lot work, a lot of moving and shaking. If he doesn't do it, the team will lose in the 1st round again if they make the playoffs, maybe the 2nd round if the bounces go their way.

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05-22-2012, 12:43 PM
  #58
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Trades with FLA and Bowman

People really need to lighten up about Bowman. He inherited a mess. The only team in the NHL that could've taken Campbell was FLA in all liklihood. Campbell is a good player and not a good value so getting rid of him and getting financial flexibility was huge. Skille is a bum. Frolik is a not a great value, but shows up in the playoffs. I would give Bowman the advantage in his dealings with Tallon, to date. Don't like this trade. I think both Beach and Pirri are still progressing and still have upside. I thought Ellerby was OK when I saw him. Santorelli, meh. Not a horrible trade proposal, but Hawks say no. I would, however, trade Hjallmarsson and Beach for Garrison.

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05-22-2012, 12:47 PM
  #59
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Garrison is a UFA.

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05-22-2012, 12:48 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by giza View Post
People really need to lighten up about Bowman. He inherited a mess. The only team in the NHL that could've taken Campbell was FLA in all liklihood. Campbell is a good player and not a good value so getting rid of him and getting financial flexibility was huge. Skille is a bum. Frolik is a not a great value, but shows up in the playoffs. I would give Bowman the advantage in his dealings with Tallon, to date. Don't like this trade. I think both Beach and Pirri are still progressing and still have upside. I thought Ellerby was OK when I saw him. Santorelli, meh. Not a horrible trade proposal, but Hawks say no. I would, however, trade Hjallmarsson and Beach for Garrison.
He's the first GM to inherit a Stanley Cup, and you call that Inheriting a mess?

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05-22-2012, 12:51 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Rexy View Post
He's the first GM to inherit a Stanley Cup, and you call that Inheriting a mess?
Yeah, with Bowman, it's more of a to much is given, much is expected situation, not the complete opposite situation some are saying.

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05-22-2012, 02:01 PM
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coldsteelonice84 View Post
Is this a joke? So when is it not too early, 4 straight years of losing in the 1st round after a championship? Would that be enough to make a change in who is running the show? Or should it be 5 years. What if they MISS the playoffs this coming season? Would that be too soon?
why should the Hawks miss the POs with the players we already have? We have a good team and are a 100+ points team. What is bad with this?

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05-22-2012, 02:32 PM
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rexy View Post
He's the first GM to inherit a Stanley Cup, and you call that Inheriting a mess?
One that had to shed 3 significant pieces and multiple other complimentary pieces because of the cap. Ladd, Buff, & Versteeg were critical parts of the depth that made that Hawks championship possible. While I am far from sold on Bowman (I have significant reservations of the last 2 deadlines...Oduya & Campoli were not anywhere close to the type of dman those teams needed and we did not add center depth which was also needed both times), I'm willing to see how the next 8 months unfold. Sign Suter, move Hjammer and prospect/picks/spare parts for a #2/#3 center and we might have the legit depth to make a run at another cup as opposed to being just good enough to make the playoffs (which is all the Hawks have been the last 2 years if you want to be honest).

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05-22-2012, 02:44 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by u2wojo View Post
One that had to shed 3 significant pieces and multiple other complimentary pieces because of the cap. Ladd, Buff, & Versteeg were critical parts of the depth that made that Hawks championship possible. While I am far from sold on Bowman (I have significant reservations of the last 2 deadlines...Oduya & Campoli were not anywhere close to the type of dman those teams needed and we did not add center depth which was also needed both times), I'm willing to see how the next 8 months unfold. Sign Suter, move Hjammer and prospect/picks/spare parts for a #2/#3 center and we might have the legit depth to make a run at another cup as opposed to being just good enough to make the playoffs (which is all the Hawks have been the last 2 years if you want to be honest).
yeah he had to shed talent, he also made no effort to replace that talent. He also significantly underrated the talent he got rid of. You telling me he couldn't have got more for Andrew Ladd? a Second Round Pick and a KHL Defensemen? That's It?

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05-22-2012, 02:53 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by Rexy View Post
yeah he had to shed talent, he also made no effort to replace that talent. He also significantly underrated the talent he got rid of. You telling me he couldn't have got more for Andrew Ladd? a Second Round Pick and a KHL Defensemen? That's It?
Because no one could do math or knew the Hawks were bent over with their pants down?

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05-22-2012, 02:58 PM
  #66
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Because no one could do math or knew the Hawks were bent over with their pants down?
Bowman got hired in 2001. He was here for the whole thing. This man was here throughout all of the mess being created. He has a degree in finance from Notre Dame and didn't see any of this coming???? Think about that.


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05-22-2012, 03:24 PM
  #67
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Originally Posted by Rexy View Post
yeah he had to shed talent, he also made no effort to replace that talent. He also significantly underrated the talent he got rid of. You telling me he couldn't have got more for Andrew Ladd? a Second Round Pick and a KHL Defensemen? That's It?
And what effort was he supposed to make to replace them? We had 4.1M cap penalty during 10-11 season and this past year it appears that Rocky had him limit spending (As we had almost 10M in salary buried in AHL/Europe)

Also Ladd was a 3rd line LW on Hawks ,, His value at time of trade was 2nd + prospect

Ladd was not god ,, He had 49 and 38 pt seasons in his 2 full years with Hawks players like that dont exactly draw great value in trades unless a GM is desperate (Caps GM at last years draft)

With Hawks cap issues who knows what type of offers they got for Ladd but 2nd+prospect was fair value

Quote:
Originally Posted by coldsteelonice84 View Post
Bowman got hired in 2001. He was here for the whole thing. This man was here throughout all of the mess being created. He has a degree in finance from Notre Dame and didn't see any of this coming???? Think about that.
You realize that at end of day Tallon was his boss ,, Tallon signed those contracts and in the case of Campbell it was Tallon who gave him flat amount with no reduction in salary to get him

Tallon loved Soupy heading into that FA and was giddy as a school girl when Rocky/Mcd gave him go ahead of increased payroll

This coming season will be true measure of Bowman as GM

No more cap mess , No more filler (Pisani , Brunette , etc)

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05-22-2012, 03:31 PM
  #68
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I wasn't talking about Campbell. I was talking about the offer sheet fiasco. I feel Stan should have done a better job making sure the logistics were taken care of. And he should have warned them about Huet, a signing I will never understand. Campbell I can accept. It was a horrid structure but he was a top player and did make the team much better. But Huet, I mean, Khabby was Tallon's guy, most blame McD, but Bowman is McD's guy and Bowman should have layed out the financials for him and put a stop to it. But whatever, it's the past.


You're right though, Bowman needs to hit some big time home runs this offseason.

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05-22-2012, 03:43 PM
  #69
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Originally Posted by coldsteelonice84 View Post
I wasn't talking about Campbell. I was talking about the offer sheet fiasco. I feel Stan should have done a better job making sure the logistics were taken care of. And he should have warned them about Huet, a signing I will never understand. Campbell I can accept. It was a horrid structure but he was a top player and did make the team much better. But Huet, I mean, Khabby was Tallon's guy, most blame McD, but Bowman is McD's guy and Bowman should have layed out the financials for him and put a stop to it. But whatever, it's the past.


You're right though, Bowman needs to hit some big time home runs this offseason.
What could Bowman do exactly?

Hammer's agent/him wanted to get an offer sheet and Niemi filed for arbitartion (His right)

Niemi wanted more money then Hawks were willing to shell out and 2 factors made him impossible to bring back in end

- Hammer offer sheet made original offer meaningless
- Niemi wanted Halak money after Halak signed his deal with Blues in early July ,, And to afford his arbitration award the Hawks would have had to deal more of the team

They offered Niemi same deal that Craw got last summer and Niemi refused ,, Really nothing Hawks could do as both players/agents wanted more then they were worth

Hammer got his wish with offers sheet (And if Hawks walk away then our D for following year is alot worse)

Niemi's agent got Hawks to walk away ,, It was major gamble and in end it paid off (As midway thru his year with Sharks he got 3.6M per extenstion)

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05-22-2012, 03:47 PM
  #70
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What could Bowman do exactly?

Hammer's agent/him wanted to get an offer sheet and Niemi filed for arbitartion (His right)

Niemi wanted more money then Hawks were willing to shell out and 2 factors made him impossible to bring back in end

- Hammer offer sheet made original offer meaningless
- Niemi wanted Halak money after Halak signed his deal with Blues in early July ,, And to afford his arbitration award the Hawks would have had to deal more of the team

They offered Niemi same deal that Craw got last summer and Niemi refused ,, Really nothing Hawks could do as both players/agents wanted more then they were worth

Hammer got his wish with offers sheet (And if Hawks walk away then our D for following year is alot worse)

Niemi's agent got Hawks to walk away ,, It was major gamble and in end it paid off (As midway thru his year with Sharks he got 3.6M per extenstion)
One thing I wanted Bowman to do at the time was to package all of the guys up for one good young player. Maybe all of the guys that went to Atlanta for their 1st rounder. I would have rather gotten much less value back than we did but had it consolidated into one very solid, highly valuable asset.

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05-23-2012, 12:44 AM
  #71
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yeah he had to shed talent, he also made no effort to replace that talent. He also significantly underrated the talent he got rid of. You telling me he couldn't have got more for Andrew Ladd? a Second Round Pick and a KHL Defensemen? That's It?
He got value for Ladd. A 3rd Line Winger on a stacked team that had no choice than trade this player still got a mid 2nd Round Pick and a former 1st Rounder that wanted to play in NA but wasn't good enough.


That return was fair for both sides at that time.



and which team would have given us a top young player for all the players we had to shed. All GMs hoped for a bargain with Buff, Versteeg or Ladd. Bowman did a good job getting good value back for them. Just go back to that time and check the threads on the main board. Most were surprised what return we got because everybody knew that we had no other choice

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05-23-2012, 02:40 AM
  #72
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Originally Posted by Bubba88 View Post
He got value for Ladd. A 3rd Line Winger on a stacked team that had no choice than trade this player still got a mid 2nd Round Pick and a former 1st Rounder that wanted to play in NA but wasn't good enough.


That return was fair for both sides at that time.



and which team would have given us a top young player for all the players we had to shed. All GMs hoped for a bargain with Buff, Versteeg or Ladd. Bowman did a good job getting good value back for them. Just go back to that time and check the threads on the main board. Most were surprised what return we got because everybody knew that we had no other choice
No need to spin anything, Vish was garbage and is the same as getting nothing.

What he got for Ladd was Adam Clendening. A solid prospect.

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05-23-2012, 05:38 AM
  #73
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We got Hill, Johns or Simpson with that ATL pick...

and Vish was a young PMD that failed in DAL and ATL and couldn't make the Roster. He did the same in Chicago. Tried it and failed. He wasn't nothing 2 years ago

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05-23-2012, 06:12 AM
  #74
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yeah he had to shed talent, he also made no effort to replace that talent. He also significantly underrated the talent he got rid of. You telling me he couldn't have got more for Andrew Ladd? a Second Round Pick and a KHL Defensemen? That's It?
This has got to be a joke. You're not serious, are you? Please tell me your not.

Lets revisit histroy, shall we?

In 2010, after the Hawks won the Cup, Kane and Toews both got significant player bonuses that, because of the Hawks cap situation at the end of the season, were tagged onto the 2010-11 salary cap. At the begining of 2010-11, Duncan Keith, Patrick Kane and Jonathan Toews' new contracts all kicked in at the same time, with each player getting significant raises. Add that to, as mentioned earlier, the 4M bonuses Kane and Toews got and Chicago had no cap space to work with - despite demoting Huet and his 5.25M pricetag to Europe... thus making it impossible to add any significant players to replace the depth Chicago had to move.

In the Summer of 2010, when all the trades were being made, Andrew Ladd was seen as a very good third liner and not much more. He was coming off a 38 point season and had only scored 6 goals & 10 points in 36 playoff games over 2 seasons with Chicago prior to being moved. What could you realistically expect for a good third liner? Bowman got what many believed was an NHL-ready Dman and former 1st round pick, aswell as a 2nd round pick that turned out to be Adam Clendening. That was fair value for Andrew Ladd at the time. I don't think anyone expected Ladd, who had never scored 20 goals in his NHL career to that point, would go on to have 28 and 29 goal seasons in his first two seasons in Atlanta/Winnipeg.

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05-23-2012, 11:46 AM
  #75
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This has got to be a joke. You're not serious, are you? Please tell me your not.

Lets revisit histroy, shall we?

In 2010, after the Hawks won the Cup, Kane and Toews both got significant player bonuses that, because of the Hawks cap situation at the end of the season, were tagged onto the 2010-11 salary cap. At the begining of 2010-11, Duncan Keith, Patrick Kane and Jonathan Toews' new contracts all kicked in at the same time, with each player getting significant raises. Add that to, as mentioned earlier, the 4M bonuses Kane and Toews got and Chicago had no cap space to work with - despite demoting Huet and his 5.25M pricetag to Europe... thus making it impossible to add any significant players to replace the depth Chicago had to move.

In the Summer of 2010, when all the trades were being made, Andrew Ladd was seen as a very good third liner and not much more. He was coming off a 38 point season and had only scored 6 goals & 10 points in 36 playoff games over 2 seasons with Chicago prior to being moved. What could you realistically expect for a good third liner? Bowman got what many believed was an NHL-ready Dman and former 1st round pick, aswell as a 2nd round pick that turned out to be Adam Clendening. That was fair value for Andrew Ladd at the time. I don't think anyone expected Ladd, who had never scored 20 goals in his NHL career to that point, would go on to have 28 and 29 goal seasons in his first two seasons in Atlanta/Winnipeg.
so in other words, the fans knew how valuable Ladd was, but the General Manger (whos job that sort of thing is) did not?

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