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Jordan Staal IV

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Old
05-14-2012, 11:03 AM
  #26
Soundgarden
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Since I never got a response in the last thread, what about this one:

Legwand/Fisher/Spaling (defensive center that can take Staal's place on a third line and help with the PK)

Your choice of Josi/Ellis/Blum

Lindback

If you don't want a center in return, maybe Hornqvist instead of Legwand/Fisher/Spaling?

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05-14-2012, 11:17 AM
  #27
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Originally Posted by Soundgarden View Post
Since I never got a response in the last thread, what about this one:

Legwand/Fisher/Spaling (defensive center that can take Staal's place on a third line and help with the PK)

Your choice of Josi/Ellis/Blum

Lindback

If you don't want a center in return, maybe Hornqvist instead of Legwand/Fisher/Spaling?
I would think Pens would have way more interest in Hornqvist than one of those centers

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05-14-2012, 11:17 AM
  #28
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Originally Posted by Blueline Bomber View Post
I believe the general consensus for Penguin fans is something akin to:

- Young, proven winger (Simmonds in the Richards trade/Setoguchi in the Burns trade)
- Good prospect (Schenn in the Richards trade/Coyle in the Burns trade) or equivalent (high 1st round pick this year's draft)
- Late 1st or equivalent (LA's 2nd in the Richards trade/28th overall in the Burns trade)

And then depending on which Penguin fan you talk to, some may want a "premium" piece in addition to that (which apparently means your best prospect/roster player).
If i was Ray this is what i'd be looking for. The good prospect can be switched to B prospect or taking out if the 1st was in the top 7.

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05-14-2012, 11:19 AM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Soundgarden View Post
Since I never got a response in the last thread, what about this one:

Legwand/Fisher/Spaling (defensive center that can take Staal's place on a third line and help with the PK)

Your choice of Josi/Ellis/Blum

Lindback

If you don't want a center in return, maybe Hornqvist instead of Legwand/Fisher/Spaling?
I would prefer winger instead of center, but that's just me.

I think it's a pretty good offer. If you can add Suter's rights (if you know he won't re-sign with Preds) to that package, even better.

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05-14-2012, 11:27 AM
  #30
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Originally Posted by Blueline Bomber View Post
Your anger is misplaced. He asked a question, I gave him an answer based on the responses in the past 3 topics. The comparison to what the Penguins are looking for (in the opinion of the Penguin fans) have been, most commonly, the Richards trade and the Burns trade. If you'd like, I could go back and find those posts stating such (including your own)

Then I compared the pieces in each trade and came up with a general idea of what Shero might be looking for. If you believe that answer should be different, correct it instead of jumping immediately to irrational anger.
Actually man, your analysis is fairly spot on as to what we would expect as a return for Staal.

I think where the anger Pens fans are coming in with is that most people here are looking for equal value trades...and I just don't see that happening. You don't give up guys like Staal for fair values. On top of that, what most people are considering "fair value" are trades coming back for Pittsburgh that do not make them a better team...in which case what is the motivation to move him? Sutter + 8thOV is probably fair value...but that in no way shape or form makes a win now team better.

With that, we've been dealing a lot with this:

"We want Staal but don't want to give up anyone good so we can offer scraps"
"No, we want more"
"HOW DARE YOU!!!!"

Pretty standard for the trade forums though. What is most likely going to have to happen is a team will have to give up just a little bit more than what they want in order to land him. Guys like Staal don't come up on the trade block very often. I think which ever team gets him are going to cry foul that it was a severe overpayment. But ya know what...maybe the GM of your team likes Staal better than a you do...and is willing to do what it takes to get him.

It's not like Staal has his bags packed and has requested a trade...he's stated that he loves it in Pittsburgh and could very easily choose to resign with us. That's my preference. But if its just not going to work out, Shero is going to be looking for the kind of payment that replaces Staal now and in the future.

-We need a Top 6 (Top 3 really) winger
-We need a stud dman

If you can't offer that up then a package needs to be put together that makes the Penguins listen.

My choices:
-Staal for Ryan: IMHO it makes sense for both teams. I'd even throw in a prospect or a 2nd or whatever else evens out the value gap even though I don't think one exists.
-Resign Staal and run: Staal-Crosby-Dupuis

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Old
05-14-2012, 11:33 AM
  #31
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Originally Posted by PenguinTommy View Post
I would prefer winger instead of center, but that's just me.

I think it's a pretty good offer. If you can add Suter's rights (if you know he won't re-sign with Preds) to that package, even better.
But, that's better value than the fair offers from Carolina fans. That's better value than the Richards deal. No deal.

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05-14-2012, 11:37 AM
  #32
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Originally Posted by SEALBound View Post
My choices:
-Staal for Ryan: IMHO it makes sense for both teams. I'd even throw in a prospect or a 2nd or whatever else evens out the value gap even though I don't think one exists.
-Resign Staal and run: Staal-Crosby-Dupuis
I'm not sure how that makes for the Ducks, especially with Boudreau there now instead of Carlyle. Plus you'd indeed have to add.

If I were the Pens and felt as strongly about Staal as so many do, that is exactly what I'd do. He is such a prototypical power forward on the wing. And Pens fans, yes I know about Staal playing LW before and all that goes with it so save it.

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05-14-2012, 11:39 AM
  #33
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Originally Posted by SEALBound View Post
Actually man, your analysis is fairly spot on as to what we would expect as a return for Staal.

I think where the anger Pens fans are coming in with is that most people here are looking for equal value trades...and I just don't see that happening. You don't give up guys like Staal for fair values. On top of that, what most people are considering "fair value" are trades coming back for Pittsburgh that do not make them a better team...in which case what is the motivation to move him? Sutter + 8thOV is probably fair value...but that in no way shape or form makes a win now team better.

With that, we've been dealing a lot with this:

"We want Staal but don't want to give up anyone good so we can offer scraps"
"No, we want more"
"HOW DARE YOU!!!!"

Pretty standard for the trade forums though. What is most likely going to have to happen is a team will have to give up just a little bit more than what they want in order to land him. Guys like Staal don't come up on the trade block very often. I think which ever team gets him are going to cry foul that it was a severe overpayment. But ya know what...maybe the GM of your team likes Staal better than a you do...and is willing to do what it takes to get him.

It's not like Staal has his bags packed and has requested a trade...he's stated that he loves it in Pittsburgh and could very easily choose to resign with us. That's my preference. But if its just not going to work out, Shero is going to be looking for the kind of payment that replaces Staal now and in the future.

-We need a Top 6 (Top 3 really) winger
-We need a stud dman

If you can't offer that up then a package needs to be put together that makes the Penguins listen.

My choices:
-Staal for Ryan: IMHO it makes sense for both teams. I'd even throw in a prospect or a 2nd or whatever else evens out the value gap even though I don't think one exists.
-Resign Staal and run: Staal-Crosby-Dupuis
Funny, leaving aside your conclusion, I've been saying all along, for the reasons you indicate, that whether it's 'fair' or not, Shero is going to be looking for a Richards plus a premium type of return. If he gets it, then he may deal Staal. If he doesn't, then he likely holds his nose, gives Staal the 6M plus, and deals with the cap fallout later.

Apparently, Shero having the audacity to ask for a Richards return plus a premium is too much to bear for some here, as if someone here saying 'he won't get that from my team' means it will change the equation.

Shero will ask for that Richards plus a premium return. Probably 4-6 teams will come to the table with value around the Richards deal. The only question is whether someone steps up (I think someone-- likely Toronto-- will) and what Shero does if nobody steps up (see above . . . it's not move Staal for the best fair offer).

EDIT: For the umpteenth time, Ryan is NOT happening, and it's not even about the hockey value. That team is on a budget (Staal, on a new deal, will cost more than Ryan). AND, that team then would need to extend Perry, Getzlaf, AND Staal this summer.

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05-14-2012, 11:41 AM
  #34
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Originally Posted by StormCast View Post
I'm not sure how that makes for the Ducks, especially with Boudreau there now instead of Carlyle. Plus you'd indeed have to add.

If I were the Pens and felt as strongly about Staal as so many do, that is exactly what I'd do. He is such a prototypical power forward on the wing. And Pens fans, yes I know about Staal playing LW before and all that goes with it so save it.
Ray Shero feels that strongly about Staal. If he didn't, then he'd have accepted Rutherford's fair offer at the 2006 draft of Jack Johnson for the 2nd overall.

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05-14-2012, 11:41 AM
  #35
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They're called fair values though, because that's usually where two GMs (after giving and taking a little) wind up.

Shero will attempt to get the opposing GM to overpay, the opposing GM will attempt to underpay, and the two will meet somewhere in the middle (if the deal is done). It's not like Shero's going to attempt to get the opposing GM to overpay and the opposing GM will simply say "Duh...Well, OK then. You want my PIN number as well?".

So Shero may end up, initially, asking for that premium player in addition to a Richard type deal. But unless the opposing GM is completely brain-dead, he'll be able to talk Shero down to a more reasonable offer.

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05-14-2012, 11:42 AM
  #36
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Originally Posted by SEALBound View Post
Actually man, your analysis is fairly spot on as to what we would expect as a return for Staal.

I think where the anger Pens fans are coming in with is that most people here are looking for equal value trades...and I just don't see that happening. You don't give up guys like Staal for fair values. On top of that, what most people are considering "fair value" are trades coming back for Pittsburgh that do not make them a better team...in which case what is the motivation to move him? Sutter + 8thOV is probably fair value...but that in no way shape or form makes a win now team better.

With that, we've been dealing a lot with this:

"We want Staal but don't want to give up anyone good so we can offer scraps"
"No, we want more"
"HOW DARE YOU!!!!"

Pretty standard for the trade forums though. What is most likely going to have to happen is a team will have to give up just a little bit more than what they want in order to land him. Guys like Staal don't come up on the trade block very often. I think which ever team gets him are going to cry foul that it was a severe overpayment. But ya know what...maybe the GM of your team likes Staal better than a you do...and is willing to do what it takes to get him.

It's not like Staal has his bags packed and has requested a trade...he's stated that he loves it in Pittsburgh and could very easily choose to resign with us. That's my preference. But if its just not going to work out, Shero is going to be looking for the kind of payment that replaces Staal now and in the future.

-We need a Top 6 (Top 3 really) winger
-We need a stud dman

If you can't offer that up then a package needs to be put together that makes the Penguins listen.

My choices:
-Staal for Ryan: IMHO it makes sense for both teams. I'd even throw in a prospect or a 2nd or whatever else evens out the value gap even though I don't think one exists.
-Resign Staal and run: Staal-Crosby-Dupuis
What i dont like about that is that's not jordan staal IMO, hes a great defensive center whose only getting better if your going make him a winger, than trade him for a winger and possibly more assets

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05-14-2012, 11:47 AM
  #37
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Jordan Staal for Kadri+Schenn+Macarthur

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05-14-2012, 11:49 AM
  #38
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Originally Posted by Blueline Bomber View Post
They're called fair values though, because that's usually where two GMs (after giving and taking a little) wind up.

Shero will attempt to get the opposing GM to overpay, the opposing GM will attempt to underpay, and the two will meet somewhere in the middle (if the deal is done). It's not like Shero's going to attempt to get the opposing GM to overpay and the opposing GM will simply say "Duh...Well, OK then. You want my PIN number as well?".

So Shero may end up, initially, asking for that premium player in addition to a Richard type deal. But unless the opposing GM is completely brain-dead, he'll be able to talk Shero down to a more reasonable offer.
Actually, this tells me how little you understand about hockey trades. Hockey trades aren't about fairness. They're about dealing and acquiring assets. Team A looks to deal assets that it deems are expendable in exchange for an asset from Team B that are in short supply. Conversely, team B looks to exchange assets that it sees as expendable and the other team views as essential.

'Fairness' is a myth. Was Gologoski for Neal and Niskanen 'fair'? It depends on who you ask. BUT, the reason it happened is because Dallas was desperate for a top four PMD. They had a scoring winger they could move and Niskanen was superfluous if a PMD was acquired. On the other hand, Gologoski was a #5 in Pittsburgh. As such, Niskanen could 'fill' that role, and Pittsburgh would get that scoring winger for which they absolutely were desperate.

That's how a hockey trade happens. Expendable assets are dealt for expendable assets. And, that's why I think Brian Burke, in the end, will win the Staal sweepstakes, why he'll pay what people here will call a Richards plus premium return . . . namely, because he'll have a more exhaustive list of assets that the Penguins will value that Burke will deem expendable in a deal for Staal.

And, frankly, that's why Carolina won't get Staal, assuming Jim Rutherford is as 'pragmatic' as many Canes fans suggest, because it sounds like, at most, maybe, Sutter and the 8th are expendable.

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Originally Posted by TML91 View Post
Jordan Staal for Kadri+Schenn+Macarthur
Did you mean Kulemin, Schenn, and the 5th overall?

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05-14-2012, 11:49 AM
  #39
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Ray Shero feels that strongly about Staal. If he didn't, then he'd have accepted Rutherford's fair offer at the 2006 draft of Jack Johnson for the 2nd overall.
So if Shero feels all that strongly about Staal, then why not end all the speculation and questions about the the 3 center approach and state Jordan Staal is moving to wing?

As stated, that's what I'd do and it solves a couple of problems with one fell swoop.

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05-14-2012, 11:55 AM
  #40
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Originally Posted by KIRK View Post
Actually, this tells me how little you understand about hockey trades. Hockey trades aren't about fairness. They're about dealing and acquiring assets. Team A looks to deal assets that it deems are expendable in exchange for an asset from Team B that are in short supply. Conversely, team B looks to exchange assets that it sees as expendable and the other team views as essential.

'Fairness' is a myth. Was Gologoski for Neal and Niskanen 'fair'? It depends on who you ask. BUT, the reason it happened is because Dallas was desperate for a top four PMD. They had a scoring winger they could move and Niskanen was superfluous if a PMD was acquired. On the other hand, Gologoski was a #5 in Pittsburgh. As such, Niskanen could 'fill' that role, and Pittsburgh would get that scoring winger for which they absolutely were desperate.

That's how a hockey trade happens. Expendable assets are dealt for expendable assets. And, that's why I think Brian Burke, in the end, will win the Staal sweepstakes, why he'll pay what people here will call a Richards plus premium return . . . namely, because he'll have a more exhaustive list of assets that the Penguins will value that Burke will deem expendable in a deal for Staal.

And, frankly, that's why Carolina won't get Staal, assuming Jim Rutherford is as 'pragmatic' as many Canes fans suggest, because it sounds like, at most, maybe, Sutter and the 8th are expendable.
But you also realize that the initial deal isn't the deal that ends up being made, right? I can guarantee you that, to use your example, Goligoski for Neal+Niskanen was not the initial deal proposed. A GM who comes into a trading discussion with the mindset of "Give me this and nothing less" makes no deals. It's why Howsen was unable to move Nash at the deadline.

There's more give and take in deals than you seem to believe.

To use the Toronto example:
Shero and Burke meet up, Shero says "Listen, I know you're interested in Staal, so I'll trade him to you for your 1st + Kadri + Schenn + Kulemin".
Burke says "That's a little rich, and I've already come out and said the 1st is almost untouchable, so how about Kadri + Kulemin + 2nd for Staal"
Shero brings up all the points that keep being brought up here (playoff experience, age, etc) and makes a different offer, better than Burke's initial offer, but slightly less than his initial offer.
Burke brings up all the points that would go against Staal and makes a different offer, slightly less than Shero's latest offer, but more than his initial offer.

And they go back and forth until a deal is reached that satisfies both sides, since both received a better deal than the initial offer that was made (1st + Kulemin + Schenn) or the two sides agree they can't reach a deal and they move on.


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05-14-2012, 12:05 PM
  #41
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we won't trade the 5th overall pick and if look at kadri in the playoffs he is averging a ppg and would be in the top 10 if not top 5 if he played as many games as some of the other players. Kadri is showing he could be ready for the show and I see Macarthur to replace sullivan and then you have schenn as your shutdown guy.

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05-14-2012, 12:28 PM
  #42
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we won't trade the 5th overall pick and if look at kadri in the playoffs he is averging a ppg and would be in the top 10 if not top 5 if he played as many games as some of the other players. Kadri is showing he could be ready for the show and I see Macarthur to replace sullivan and then you have schenn as your shutdown guy.
Man, you might as well back out ... Staal is NOT moving for a guy who not a regular on your team, Clarke MacArthur, and Luke Schenn. Do you know how easily that would be bested by another team?

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05-14-2012, 12:29 PM
  #43
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we won't trade the 5th overall pick and if look at kadri in the playoffs he is averging a ppg and would be in the top 10 if not top 5 if he played as many games as some of the other players. Kadri is showing he could be ready for the show and I see Macarthur to replace sullivan and then you have schenn as your shutdown guy.
Not a big fan of Kadri would rather have Kulemin Schenn and another piece thats not MacArthur. Ideally id like Schenn Kulemin Colburne, for Staal Kennedy and another piece

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05-14-2012, 12:33 PM
  #44
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we won't trade the 5th overall pick and if look at kadri in the playoffs he is averging a ppg and would be in the top 10 if not top 5 if he played as many games as some of the other players. Kadri is showing he could be ready for the show and I see Macarthur to replace sullivan and then you have schenn as your shutdown guy.
Kadri in Playoffs? You mean in Juniors 2 years ago? Cool !

Top 10? You mean in teams stats? Even bigger cool !

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05-14-2012, 12:36 PM
  #45
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Kadri in Playoffs? You mean in Juniors 2 years ago? Cool !

Top 10? You mean in teams stats? Even bigger cool !
I think he means right now in the ahl. Not that I agree with his overall point, but you do have to have some idea what u are talking about before you respond.

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05-14-2012, 12:44 PM
  #46
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I think he means right now in the ahl. Not that I agree with his overall point, but you do have to have some idea what u are talking about before you respond.
I see the point about Kadri, but you also have to realize that it's the AHL.

In no way am I doubting Kadri's potential, skill etc. But just because he's doing this in the AHL, doesn't mean he will be as effective in the NHL.

Guys like Tangradi and Colin McDonald were ppg players for WBS in the playoffs, and we know how they played in the NHL.

Kadri has upside and potential, I just wouldn't want him in a deal involving Staal.

And to be honest, I don't know what Ray Shero will be looking for IF he even intends on trading Jordan Staal, so I don't know what kind of deal could be made.

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05-14-2012, 01:01 PM
  #47
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05-14-2012, 02:27 PM
  #48
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I don't know much about Tangradi and how he plays, I know kadri makes mistakes in his own end and trys to do to much but when the kid is on his game the kid is a beaut and now I think he is starting to show that in the playoffs with the marlies. And the reason Kadri doesn't stick is bc we so many bad contracts where we have to play them Macarthur is a 50point guy who can also play a two way game. When you add kadri and Macarthur you get the same amount if not more points than Staal at a cheaper price and then you add in Schenn who will be a top Defensive D-man in the league most leaf fans have given up on him but the kid is only 23 this kid has a lot of time to break and I know he can with the Penguins


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05-14-2012, 02:37 PM
  #49
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I don't know much about Tangradi and how he plays, I know kadri makes mistakes in his own end and trys to do to much but when the kid is on his game the kid is a beaut and now I think he is starting to show that in the playoffs with the marlies. And the reason Kadri doesn't stick is bc we so many bad contracts where we have to play them Macarthur is a 50point guy who can also play a two way game. When you add kadri and Macarthur you get the same amount if not more points than Staal at a cheaper price and then you add in Schenn who will be a top Defensive D-man in the league most leaf fans have given up on him but the kid is only 23 this kid has a lot of time to break and I know he can with the Penguins
Why don't you take out Kadri and MacArthur and add Kulemin and Bozak?

We could use Kulemin as a LW with Malkin and Bozak could be a solid 3rd line center replacement for Staal.

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05-14-2012, 02:45 PM
  #50
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I see the point about Kadri, but you also have to realize that it's the AHL.

In no way am I doubting Kadri's potential, skill etc. But just because he's doing this in the AHL, doesn't mean he will be as effective in the NHL.

Guys like Tangradi and Colin McDonald were ppg players for WBS in the playoffs, and we know how they played in the NHL.

Kadri has upside and potential, I just wouldn't want him in a deal involving Staal.

And to be honest, I don't know what Ray Shero will be looking for IF he even intends on trading Jordan Staal, so I don't know what kind of deal could be made.
I agree with you to a point Colin Mcdonald is a nobody and Tangradi could be showing that he might be ready as a 3rd liner and the only thing I keep hearing is you guys want a Shut down D-man and kadri and Macarthur would replace the scoring of Staal at a chaeper price. That would be a offer I would start with then go from there.

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