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Detroit Red Wings Prospects

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Old
05-14-2012, 09:24 PM
  #51
irishtemper
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crazy Kassian View Post
the song about their Rebellion
oh I know lol...I'm just thinking I like the play on words with the song that I think the title should be with Reynes, but that isn't really a nitpick I guess considering the song title is in fact Rains

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Old
05-15-2012, 12:38 AM
  #52
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Originally Posted by tyratoku View Post
My take on Detroit prospects is this:

Whenever a player is taken in a draft, they have two projections. One, an absolute highest-caliber ceiling that player could reach if all of the stars align and they are developed perfectly. Two, what the player is likely to become.

Take Jonas Brodin for example. Minnesota Wild took him at #10 last year. His absolute highest possible ceiling is basically a Lidstrom lite. Something like 90% of what Lidstrom is. His more likely projection is Kenny Jonsson, a 1B/#2 defender who plays very well consistently.

These projections basically work for every prospect taken, and with 29/30 teams in the league, prospects are ranked based on their likely projections, not their absolute highest ceiling possible.

With Detroit, however, prospects are expected to hit their absolute ceiling quite a bit of the time. Detroit has such a great philosophy on development that people simply expect prospects developed by them to reach that ceiling.

Its not that the prospects themselves are overrated, or the pools or teams are overrated, its just that people expect them to develop well.

Just my $0.02
Whats a Lidström lite? 3 norrises, 2 stanley cups?

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Old
05-15-2012, 02:28 AM
  #53
WarriorofTime
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They got some guys with good potential like every other team. It just gets annoying to hear Red Wings fans act like there's no chance of a decline when Lidstrom retires and Datsyuk/Zetteberg decline shortly (if you want to argue these last three years don't already signify a decline.) It's always "ten years ago we replaced some guys so it's going to happen again" when the truth is that takes ridiculous amounts of luck in addition to good drafting and developing for that to happen.

Brendan Smith's a good prospect, I don't think he's Lidstrom. Pardon me if I'm not sold on Gustav Nyquist seamlessly replacing Datsyuk in a couple years as well.

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05-15-2012, 02:39 AM
  #54
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Old
05-15-2012, 03:08 AM
  #55
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Originally Posted by WarriorofTime View Post
They got some guys with good potential like every other team. It just gets annoying to hear Red Wings fans act like there's no chance of a decline when Lidstrom retires and Datsyuk/Zetteberg decline shortly (if you want to argue these last three years don't already signify a decline.) It's always "ten years ago we replaced some guys so it's going to happen again" when the truth is that takes ridiculous amounts of luck in addition to good drafting and developing for that to happen.

Brendan Smith's a good prospect, I don't think he's Lidstrom. Pardon me if I'm not sold on Gustav Nyquist seamlessly replacing Datsyuk in a couple years as well.
So basically this thread and others like it are just pure jealousy?

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Old
05-15-2012, 03:38 AM
  #56
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Originally Posted by crazy Kassian View Post


Did I really have to add "as of right now" for people like you?

Notice I said "looks" not just "they are"
You can qualify it however you want, it's an empty and pointless statement to suggest a team looks or is a draft winner after one year, particularly since none of them are in the NHL. That's the point.

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05-15-2012, 04:31 AM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Hossa View Post
You can qualify it however you want, it's an empty and pointless statement to suggest a team looks or is a draft winner after one year, particularly since none of them are in the NHL. That's the point.
You must've been really busy in the 2011 re-draft thread

It's not an empty statement it's an opinion on the prospects, something you haven't given

Since I brought up Detroit's relevant 2011 draft, I can't say that based on those picks they are winners at this point? What do you think about the 2015 NHL thread?

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05-15-2012, 06:03 AM
  #58
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Originally Posted by WarriorofTime View Post
Brendan Smith's a good prospect, I don't think he's Lidstrom. Pardon me if I'm not sold on Gustav Nyquist seamlessly replacing Datsyuk in a couple years as well.
Does Nyquist play center? I honestly don't know.

I've never seen anyone claim Smith's going to be Lidstrom. At best I've seen some people say he might turn out to be another Kronwall.

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Old
05-15-2012, 09:47 AM
  #59
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Originally Posted by gretskidoo View Post
Does Nyquist play center? I honestly don't know.

I've never seen anyone claim Smith's going to be Lidstrom. At best I've seen some people say he might turn out to be another Kronwall.
I believe he played C during his sophomore year at Maine...but he has been a winger the whole time in the pros.

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05-15-2012, 02:03 PM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gretskidoo View Post
Does Nyquist play center? I honestly don't know.

I've never seen anyone claim Smith's going to be Lidstrom. At best I've seen some people say he might turn out to be another Kronwall.

I think he'll be better than Kronwall defensively, and probably a bit better offensively. There's enough room between Kronwall and Lidstrom for him to slide in there though. He's an elite skater, great puckmover with a nose for the net and some sandpaper to him. And I mean in his own end, not just the flashy open ice hits Kronwally likes to dole out. He's generally much more physical.

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05-15-2012, 05:28 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Dosing View Post
So basically this thread and others like it are just pure jealousy?
That wasn't at all what I said but whatever floats your boat. Wings will win the next 20 Stanley Cups. Franchises never decline.

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05-15-2012, 07:34 PM
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WarriorofTime View Post
That wasn't at all what I said but whatever floats your boat. Wings will win the next 20 Stanley Cups. Franchises never decline.
jealous much?

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Old
05-16-2012, 07:34 AM
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
I think he'll be better than Kronwall defensively, and probably a bit better offensively. There's enough room between Kronwall and Lidstrom for him to slide in there though. He's an elite skater, great puckmover with a nose for the net and some sandpaper to him. And I mean in his own end, not just the flashy open ice hits Kronwally likes to dole out. He's generally much more physical.
I was going to post very much the same thing but choose not to. Smith really is Kronwall. There are very minor differences. Slightly faster, Better shot, More physical in a traditional sense (rather than Kronwalled). Otherwise they are pretty identical.

Both are game changing offensive forces with the ability to be high end defensively. High end may be slightly more but if you have to compare Smith to anyone in the league its Kronwall.

Couple years ago we all compared Smith to Neids but is game is more of a Kronwall mold with the physicality (and not a hall of famer, though who knows). Kronwall has also become much better defensively/shot blocking which was really the only difference a few years back.

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05-16-2012, 09:39 AM
  #64
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Thank you OP. Been saying this for a looong time as well.

Every Euro drafted by the Wings in a later round? STEAL STEAL STEAL! WOW HOW DID THE WINGS DO THAT AGAIN???? It's sickening. Jurco was called a steal right away. You know, Jurco was heavily scouted by everybody, pretty sure he was drafted right where he should be. Stop inflating players just because they're Wings pick. If Jarnkrok wasn't a Wing he wouldn't be talked about as much. He is a good player but he will not be as good in the NHL with his frame.

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05-16-2012, 09:39 AM
  #65
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Originally Posted by solo16 View Post
I was going to post very much the same thing but choose not to. Smith really is Kronwall. There are very minor differences. Slightly faster, Better shot, More physical in a traditional sense (rather than Kronwalled). Otherwise they are pretty identical.

Both are game changing offensive forces with the ability to be high end defensively. High end may be slightly more but if you have to compare Smith to anyone in the league its Kronwall.

Couple years ago we all compared Smith to Neids but is game is more of a Kronwall mold with the physicality (and not a hall of famer, though who knows). Kronwall has also become much better defensively/shot blocking which was really the only difference a few years back.
When has Kronwall ever been a game chaining offensive force? Come on.

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05-16-2012, 09:42 AM
  #66
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Originally Posted by Mr Bugg View Post
The Red Wings, by your equation, have two of three. They tend to get that luck to go with it.

And I would refute the idea it's every ten years:

1983- Yzerman
1989- Lidstrom/Fedorov/Konstantinov
1994- Tomas Holmstrom
1998- Fischer/Datsyuk
1999- Zetterberg
2004- Franzen (Edler)

So forgive anyone- and this goes for the OP- for thinking that the Red Wings are better at the scouting game than anyone else. No matter where they pick, be it 4th or be 204th, they find talent. No, it's not every year, but no one's ever claimed that.
That's exactly what people claim. There are better scouting staffs in the league who don't get as much credit. People gushing over plugs like Helm and Abdelkader in the playoffs a couple of years back. It's very annoying.

Since Franzen they have nothing. Nothing. That's a fact. That was 8 years ago. That's a long time to go without a good player.

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05-16-2012, 10:01 AM
  #67
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That's exactly what people claim. There are better scouting staffs in the league who don't get as much credit. People gushing over plugs like Helm and Abdelkader in the playoffs a couple of years back. It's very annoying.

Since Franzen they have nothing. Nothing. That's a fact. That was 8 years ago. That's a long time to go without a good player.
how often things like this come up is one of the reasons that makes me think they are actually underrated

the only reason for this is how slowly the Wings develop their prospects

they still have Smith from 2007,Nyquist from 2008 etc

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bieber View Post
If Jarnkrok wasn't a Wing he wouldn't be talked about as much.
uh what?

he doesn't even have a thread on this forum at all....

if he wasn't a Wing if anything he would be talked about more

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05-16-2012, 10:12 AM
  #68
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Originally Posted by ricky0034 View Post
how often things like this come up is one of the reasons that makes me think they are actually underrated

the only reason for this is how slowly the Wings develop their prospects

they still have Smith from 2007,Nyquist from 2008 etc



uh what?

he doesn't even have a thread on this forum at all....

if he wasn't a Wing if anything he would be talked about more
They develop their prospects slowly because they aren't great prospects. They need the time. If they drafted Sidney Crosby he wouldn't be brought up slowly.

After the Pulkinnen crap hockey fans have had to endure, its nice seeing him have a bad season this year.

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05-16-2012, 10:13 AM
  #69
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When has Kronwall ever been a game chaining offensive force? Come on.
2012: 29th in defenseman points PPG: 439
2011: 31st in defenseman points PPG: .481
2010: 79th playing only half a season do to injury PPG:.4583
2009: 11th in defenseman points PPG .6375
2008: 30th in defenseman points (injured season) PPG: .538 PPG

Only 5 dman in the league were over .63 this year on ppg. Lets not clown around, I am not saying Kronwall is a Norris Candidate but to ignore the fact he is a extremely high end offensive dman is just silly. Those numbers are also having less Quality PP time because he has Lidstrom and previously Rafalski above him on the depth chart.

If you were wondering his .6375 year was the year the wings had Hossa. Our second power play unit was actually decent Zetterburg, Franzen, Cleary.

Watch him play and you will agree. He is the flashiest offensive defensman on the wings by far, and has been for quite a few years. Lids and Rafalski are and were more traditional supporting dman. They make everyone look good and setup sweet sweet passing plays (save Lidstrom when he enters superman mode). Kronwall is more of a I can do it all my self similar to PK Subban. He dekes, steals the attention and makes a big play (or fails).

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05-16-2012, 10:42 AM
  #70
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Originally Posted by Bieber View Post
They develop their prospects slowly because they aren't great prospects. They need the time. If they drafted Sidney Crosby he wouldn't be brought up slowly.

After the Pulkinnen crap hockey fans have had to endure, its nice seeing him have a bad season this year.
Yet you fail to realize that Pulkkinen was heralded as a top 5/10 pick for 2 years before his draft year, anytime you get a player like that in the 4th round you'll be excited. The thread you are talking about is pretty much finish posters either providing updates for fans or them arguing with each other.

Of course if the wings draft a Crosby they wouldn't be keeping him in the minors but if you haven't noticed the wings haven't picked higher then 19th and that was in 2005. The thing is by the 20's you're left with either low reward/low risk picks (3rd/4th line grinders) or you take the high reward/high risk guys (Project picks). So the wings hit a couple of home runs from say 99-04, nothing from 05-09, and have finally appeared to turn a corner drafting many guys that have the potential to be top 6 guys.

Most wings fans will till you that we know we don't have the best drafting record recently but sometimes though high risk picks just don't turn out but if you can point me to the team that has made the playoffs and picked as high as us that still is successful please do. The only other team that has done it was the Devils from 96-97 to 09-10, and you could include the Sharks for argument sake.

But you can also continue to live in your world of hatred towards the wings and think that we overrate our prospects while we only have 2 threads about 2 of our prospects one of those being started before he was even a member of our origination (Pulkkinen) and the other being Jurco. The fact that you think Jarnkrok wouldn't be talked about if he was on another team is quite funny considering there are some Scouts/Swedish fans that see him as having a higher potential then Silverberg who everyone loves.


Last edited by DatsyukToZetterberg: 05-16-2012 at 11:27 AM.
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Old
05-16-2012, 11:23 AM
  #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bieber View Post
They develop their prospects slowly because they aren't great prospects. They need the time. If they drafted Sidney Crosby he wouldn't be brought up slowly.

After the Pulkinnen crap hockey fans have had to endure, its nice seeing him have a bad season this year.


want a tissue for your issue?

We get it, guy. You don't like the wings. At least if you hate them, supply the facts.

First of all, B. Smith was supposed to be a borderline dman at best around his draft time. The guy was in THN's top 60 but it was late. Detroit took a gamble with him and it worked. I would call that a solid find.

Since the lock-out they have been decent at finding talent. I will admit they arent really elite at drafting since the lockout but it's been pretty damn solid.

2005: 3/4 active NHLers
2006: 2/3 active NHLers
2007: Joakim and Brenden will be NHLers
2008: Nyquist
2009: Tatar, maybe Almquist/Callahan will make it

That's not that bad. Sorry if we don't have a plethora of picks and first rounders to just piss away on risks like most teams do. The price you pay to win cups.. oh gee

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05-16-2012, 11:31 AM
  #72
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Originally Posted by Bieber View Post
They develop their prospects slowly because they aren't great prospects. They need the time. If they drafted Sidney Crosby he wouldn't be brought up slowly.

After the Pulkinnen crap hockey fans have had to endure, its nice seeing him have a bad season this year.
um....duh?

with how late they draft usually the only way they can get elite players is if they have problems at the time of the draft(the most common probably being size) and these problems do take time to fix

but that's no reason to completely write off the ones that are progressing nicely just because they aren't in the NHL yet as you and many others seem all too willing to do

there's going to be some very shocked people around here when some of these players start hitting the NHL

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Old
05-16-2012, 12:07 PM
  #73
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Originally Posted by zetterberg40 View Post


want a tissue for your issue?

We get it, guy. You don't like the wings. At least if you hate them, supply the facts.

First of all, B. Smith was supposed to be a borderline dman at best around his draft time. The guy was in THN's top 60 but it was late. Detroit took a gamble with him and it worked. I would call that a solid find.

Since the lock-out they have been decent at finding talent. I will admit they arent really elite at drafting since the lockout but it's been pretty damn solid.

2005: 3/4 active NHLers
2006: 2/3 active NHLers
2007: Joakim and Brenden will be NHLers
2008: Nyquist
2009: Tatar, maybe Almquist/Callahan will make it

That's not that bad. Sorry if we don't have a plethora of picks and first rounders to just piss away on risks like most teams do. The price you pay to win cups.. oh gee
This is basically what the OP is talking about. All the Wings fans are proving it.

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05-16-2012, 12:08 PM
  #74
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Originally Posted by DatsyukToZetterberg View Post

But you can also continue to live in your world of hatred towards the wings and think that we overrate our prospects while we only have 2 threads about 2 of our prospects one of those being started before he was even a member of our origination (Pulkkinen) and the other being Jurco. The fact that you think Jarnkrok wouldn't be talked about if he was on another team is quite funny considering there are some Scouts/Swedish fans that see him as having a higher potential then Silverberg who everyone loves.
That's only because he's a Wings prospect.

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05-16-2012, 12:08 PM
  #75
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Originally Posted by DatsyukToZetterberg View Post
Of course if the wings draft a Crosby they wouldn't be keeping him in the minors but if you haven't noticed the wings haven't picked higher then 19th and that was in 2005. The thing is by the 20's you're left with either low reward/low risk picks (3rd/4th line grinders) or you take the high reward/high risk guys (Project picks). So the wings hit a couple of home runs from say 99-04, nothing from 05-09, and have finally appeared to turn a corner drafting many guys that have the potential to be top 6 guys.
You say this based on nothing but hope, really. None of these guys have made the NHL.

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