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Old
05-18-2012, 08:01 AM
  #101
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Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
Grigorenko would have been a star.
What a shame.
I still have the NHL Yearbook 2003 with Sakic on the cover and in the Red Wings section I always get sad at the projected lines and how Grigs was supposed to just slide right into the lineup and play with his young countryman Datsyuk. So sad to think of the missed out entertainment from the Fish and Grigorenko (Vlad too).

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05-19-2012, 08:21 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by irishtemper View Post
I still have the NHL Yearbook 2003 with Sakic on the cover and in the Red Wings section I always get sad at the projected lines and how Grigs was supposed to just slide right into the lineup and play with his young countryman Datsyuk. So sad to think of the missed out entertainment from the Fish and Grigorenko (Vlad too).
I wasn't a part of this site when Grigs was first hyped, but how good was he expected to be? I remember reading in the Paper he played with Kovalchuk and Datsyuk one tourney and did great, are we talking 30g, 70 point good?

Also, many people forget to mention Jiri Fischer who was well on his way to being a Chris Pronger lite. I think he'd be a top 20 dman if he stayed healthy

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05-19-2012, 10:20 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by WarriorofTime View Post
They got some guys with good potential like every other team. It just gets annoying to hear Red Wings fans act like there's no chance of a decline when Lidstrom retires and Datsyuk/Zetteberg decline shortly (if you want to argue these last three years don't already signify a decline.) It's always "ten years ago we replaced some guys so it's going to happen again" when the truth is that takes ridiculous amounts of luck in addition to good drafting and developing for that to happen.

Brendan Smith's a good prospect, I don't think he's Lidstrom. Pardon me if I'm not sold on Gustav Nyquist seamlessly replacing Datsyuk in a couple years as well.
Using your analogy Pittsburgh Penguins are also on the decline.

Red Wings fans' have a prospect pool to be very excited about. Looking at the big picture, DRWs look like they are going to have a very bright future ahead of them.

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05-20-2012, 12:14 AM
  #104
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Originally Posted by CloneHakanPlease View Post
I wasn't a part of this site when Grigs was first hyped, but how good was he expected to be? I remember reading in the Paper he played with Kovalchuk and Datsyuk one tourney and did great, are we talking 30g, 70 point good?

Also, many people forget to mention Jiri Fischer who was well on his way to being a Chris Pronger lite. I think he'd be a top 20 dman if he stayed healthy
Some of us hoped he'd be a 30-goal, 40-goal guy... the perfect fit for a pass-first center like Datsyuk.
Even now, if you youtube him, you can see he lacks the footspeed/acceleration that he had/would need to play in the NHL, but he still has great hands.

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05-20-2012, 02:04 AM
  #105
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Originally Posted by HTT3 View Post
Using your analogy Pittsburgh Penguins are also on the decline.

Red Wings fans' have a prospect pool to be very excited about. Looking at the big picture, DRWs look like they are going to have a very bright future ahead of them.
Despite being a self-proclaimed dynasty, Pittsburgh is clearly worse the last three years than they were in 08 and 09. Results speak for themselves. I don't see why you can't say Pittsburgh has declined, not that they can't rebound.

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05-20-2012, 03:54 AM
  #106
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Jarnkrok was one of the best Swedes during the WC:s, clearly better than his highly touted linemate Silfverberg.

He actually looked better during the WC than he did in the SEL playoffs. I don't know if that's a good or bad thing.

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05-20-2012, 07:07 AM
  #107
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Some of this thread is just plain funny.

You can call it whatever you want, but when a team drafts Zetterberg, Datsyuk, Franzen, Filppula, Holmstrom, Lidstrom, and Fedorov (Granted, Lidstrom and Fedorov were shorter draft rounds) after the third round, you've earned the right to receive higher expectations...

Hell, while I can't stand him, Ericsson was picked in the final round as a center...

Reality is, Detroit is gonna have some busts, but if all their guys with high expectations were to make it as big as their high-end projections, they wouldn't have the roster space and cap room for them.

If anybody is gonna be big it'll likely be Jurco and Jarnkrok, and both of them are currently looking like they will be pretty big name players.

Nyquist is already looking like he could pan out to be a 40-50 point player on a BAD projection.

Smith is huge offensively (7 points in 14 NHL games), but still needs some work defensively.

Pulkkinen is funny. He could be a big guy in the NHL, or he could never play any more than 50 games. It's all about how he translates to North American hockey.

Somebody called Almqvist a likely bust... I don't think a 7th round pick can ever be considered a bust...

Another person said Darren Helm hasn't made an impact. Umm, False. The guy doesn't score 30 goals a year but he's one of the best PK guys in the league.

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05-20-2012, 03:52 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by Nordic View Post
Jarnkrok was one of the best Swedes during the WC:s, clearly better than his highly touted linemate Silfverberg.

He actually looked better during the WC than he did in the SEL playoffs. I don't know if that's a good or bad thing.
Really? Because I thought he was one of the worst Swedes in the WCs. I only saw 3 games but he was practically invisible in all of them. He had a whopping 1 point in the 8 WC games. I think you are being a homer here. 14 players on the Swedish team had more points then him. Again, he only had 1 point while Zetterberg had 15, Eriksson 13, Franzen 9, ect. ect.

In fact, everything I've read was that he was a bit of a disappointment. So was Silfverberg but at least he contributed 2 goals while Jarnkrok didn't have any. Silfverberg also had 15 more points than Jarnkrok during the season for Brynas. I just can't believe you'd say Jarnkrok was one of the best Swedish players when that is just so wrong. Marcus Kruger was a lot better IMO.

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05-20-2012, 04:19 PM
  #109
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Jarnkrok was not one of the best swedish players in the WC, he was better than expected and played with more energy than he usually does though. He was not really an offensive threat at all however, the Silfverberg-Jarnkrok duo is better offensively than they showed in the WC.

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05-20-2012, 05:19 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by charlamov71 View Post
however, the Silfverberg-Jarnkrok duo is better offensively than they showed in the WC.
is it really such a shocker that two would-be rookies (one who won't even be in the NHL this next year) didn't tear it up against the best players they've ever played against?

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05-21-2012, 11:52 AM
  #111
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I do think they are overrated for drafting based off their amazing drafts of the late 90's and early 2000's.

From the first couple pages, every team looks brilliant 1-2 years after the draft. It's 4-5 years where you really see how it looks.

Look at the Wings drafts from 2005-2009: Helm, Abdelkader, and Emmerton. Three grinders pretty much. That's it. Sure there are still a few solid prospects in the pipeline from those years, but typically star players don't take 5 years to make an impact at the NHL level.

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05-21-2012, 11:55 AM
  #112
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Originally Posted by Eerie Hurdler View Post
is it really such a shocker that two would-be rookies (one who won't even be in the NHL this next year) didn't tear it up against the best players they've ever played against?
It always is at HFBoards...

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05-21-2012, 12:15 PM
  #113
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I do think they are overrated for drafting based off their amazing drafts of the late 90's and early 2000's.

From the first couple pages, every team looks brilliant 1-2 years after the draft. It's 4-5 years where you really see how it looks.

Look at the Wings drafts from 2005-2009: Helm, Abdelkader, and Emmerton. Three grinders pretty much. That's it. Sure there are still a few solid prospects in the pipeline from those years, but typically star players don't take 5 years to make an impact at the NHL level.
Do you think the Wings draft typical players? I think half of the point of their draft strategy is that they cannot draft the same types of players other teams do. They have to draft the sort of players who DO take years.

You look at Zetterberg, Datsyuk, Kronwall, etc. and they all took years. If HF had that sort of spotlight back then and the Wings had that kind of mystique, people would be asking "if these guys are so good, where are they?"

The reason they've only got grinders to show for it at this point is because that's what happens when the Wings draft "vanilla." If they really felt like it, they could have a team of 2nd/3rd line tweeners from these recent drafts already. But as we all already know, the Wings have a wacky set of characteristics they want their players to have, and they draft a lot of projects. Let's not forget either that the Wings have almost no roster space for young players. That's why they love to roll the dice. They can deal with the busts and slot the phenoms right on in. They seem to operate a large part of their draft that way.

That said, this most recent crop of draft picks are going to have a more immediate effect. Sheahan, Jurco, Sproul, Ouellet, etc are on a faster track to NHL ice than most guys the Wings take. Others like Jarnkrok, Nyquist, Smith, Aubry, Tvrdon, and of course Mrazek are going to have taken some time before hitting NHL ice.

Does this mean Group A (Sheahan, et al) is better than Group B (Jarnkrok, et al) because they're going to make the the NHL sooner? I think we all know how silly that conclusion is.

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05-21-2012, 12:35 PM
  #114
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Originally Posted by Jarick View Post
I do think they are overrated for drafting based off their amazing drafts of the late 90's and early 2000's.

From the first couple pages, every team looks brilliant 1-2 years after the draft. It's 4-5 years where you really see how it looks.

Look at the Wings drafts from 2005-2009: Helm, Abdelkader, and Emmerton. Three grinders pretty much. That's it. Sure there are still a few solid prospects in the pipeline from those years, but typically star players don't take 5 years to make an impact at the NHL level.
From 2005 to 2009, the 2006 players just lost their waiver eligibility from their draft, which is when the wings bring up most players. So no, it is much to early to judge those picks especially ones as late as 2009.

The wings take projects based on where they pick and have 2 stud type prospects coming from those years. Nyquist and Smith. Nyquist in his first year of pro hockey tore up the AHL on a bad team, and than made the wings come the end of the season. Something pretty unheard of by wings style of development. Smith is also a top defensive prospect in the entire league.

The wings make their players take time, work their way up the ranks before finally allowing them to really take hold of offensive roles. Filppula and Franzen were the same way, before that Datsyuk and Zetterberg were and now they have a pipe line that could provide some more potential game breakers.

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05-21-2012, 01:29 PM
  #115
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Originally Posted by Eerie Hurdler View Post
Do you think the Wings draft typical players? I think half of the point of their draft strategy is that they cannot draft the same types of players other teams do. They have to draft the sort of players who DO take years.

You look at Zetterberg, Datsyuk, Kronwall, etc. and they all took years. If HF had that sort of spotlight back then and the Wings had that kind of mystique, people would be asking "if these guys are so good, where are they?"

The reason they've only got grinders to show for it at this point is because that's what happens when the Wings draft "vanilla." If they really felt like it, they could have a team of 2nd/3rd line tweeners from these recent drafts already. But as we all already know, the Wings have a wacky set of characteristics they want their players to have, and they draft a lot of projects. Let's not forget either that the Wings have almost no roster space for young players. That's why they love to roll the dice. They can deal with the busts and slot the phenoms right on in. They seem to operate a large part of their draft that way.

That said, this most recent crop of draft picks are going to have a more immediate effect. Sheahan, Jurco, Sproul, Ouellet, etc are on a faster track to NHL ice than most guys the Wings take. Others like Jarnkrok, Nyquist, Smith, Aubry, Tvrdon, and of course Mrazek are going to have taken some time before hitting NHL ice.

Does this mean Group A (Sheahan, et al) is better than Group B (Jarnkrok, et al) because they're going to make the the NHL sooner? I think we all know how silly that conclusion is.
This is a perfect example of why Red Wing picks get over rated. You have some belief that Detroit likes to draft late round steals, as if they only can do it. Well guess what, they haven't done it in a decade. The reality is that they did a good job in the 90's, but that was a looooong time ago.

Facts are facts, they have not been able to get late round hall of famers in 15 years.

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05-21-2012, 02:28 PM
  #116
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Originally Posted by MoreGore View Post
This is a perfect example of why Red Wing picks get over rated. You have some belief that Detroit likes to draft late round steals, as if they only can do it. Well guess what, they haven't done it in a decade. The reality is that they did a good job in the 90's, but that was a looooong time ago.

Facts are facts, they have not been able to get late round hall of famers in 15 years.
Similar logic was trotted out in the late 90's that it was a product of luck in the early 90's and exploiting Europe. I wouldn't call Franzen and Filppula superstars (Selanne does with Fil at every opportunity) but those are pretty good late round picks. They haven't had as great a run since the turn of the century but they went pretty bare for a short period in the 90's trading away picks and whatnot and just when everyone got ready to proclaim it done, Kronwall, Datsyuk and Z showed up. So call it luck reach for whatever reasoning you want, but just know most will laugh when half of these kids hit, Jarnkrok, Jurco, Nyquist, Sheahan they don't all have to pan out, the Wings have a lot of bullets though. After a while you have to snicker at these claims of luck or the sky is falling, it might one day in fact that is certain, but to claim you know when is a little ridiculous. People have been trying to be the first to proclaim this run dead, fortunately nobody has been right to date.

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05-21-2012, 02:31 PM
  #117
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From 2005 to 2009, the 2006 players just lost their waiver eligibility from their draft, which is when the wings bring up most players. So no, it is much to early to judge those picks especially ones as late as 2009.

The wings take projects based on where they pick and have 2 stud type prospects coming from those years. Nyquist and Smith. Nyquist in his first year of pro hockey tore up the AHL on a bad team, and than made the wings come the end of the season. Something pretty unheard of by wings style of development. Smith is also a top defensive prospect in the entire league.

The wings make their players take time, work their way up the ranks before finally allowing them to really take hold of offensive roles. Filppula and Franzen were the same way, before that Datsyuk and Zetterberg were and now they have a pipe line that could provide some more potential game breakers.
Wings are a good drafting team and I would say even today nobody scouts Euros better. But it's a lot more likely their current group of prospects turn into Kronwall, Filppula, Hudler, and Franzen than Lidstrom, Datsyuk, and Zetterberg.

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05-21-2012, 04:01 PM
  #118
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Using your analogy Pittsburgh Penguins are also on the decline.

Red Wings fans' have a prospect pool to be very excited about. Looking at the big picture, DRWs look like they are going to have a very bright future ahead of them.
Really?
Until we have the next Datsyuik, Zetterberg or Lidstrom step up, I don't see it.

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05-21-2012, 04:03 PM
  #119
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Some of this thread is just plain funny.

You can call it whatever you want, but when a team drafts Zetterberg, Datsyuk, Franzen, Filppula, Holmstrom, Lidstrom, and Fedorov (Granted, Lidstrom and Fedorov were shorter draft rounds) after the third round, you've earned the right to receive higher expectations...

Hell, while I can't stand him, Ericsson was picked in the final round as a center....

1. The Fedorov/Lidstrom picks were from another GM/Scouting department. So that's irrelevant/
2. Flip wasn't later than the third round.

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05-21-2012, 04:16 PM
  #120
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Originally Posted by Eerie Hurdler View Post
Do you think the Wings draft typical players? I think half of the point of their draft strategy is that they cannot draft the same types of players other teams do. They have to draft the sort of players who DO take years.

You look at Zetterberg, Datsyuk, Kronwall, etc. and they all took years. If HF had that sort of spotlight back then and the Wings had that kind of mystique, people would be asking "if these guys are so good, where are they?"
Player - Draft Year - Debut
Datsyuk 1998 --- 2001
Fischer 1998 -- 1999
Zetterberg 1999 - 2002
Kronwall 2000 -- 2005 (debuted in 03) lockout delayed
Kopecky 2000 --- 2005
Hudler 2002 --- 2006
Filppula 2002 -- 2006
Howard 2003 --- 2009
Franzen 2004 --- 2005
Helm 2005 -- 2009 (2008 playoffs)
Abdelkader 2005 ---2009 (2009 playoffs)
Kindl 2005 --- 2010

a couple things- the better the player, the quicker they make the show.
Defense takes longer.
No surprises.




Quote:
The reason they've only got grinders to show for it at this point is because that's what happens when the Wings draft "vanilla." If they really felt like it, they could have a team of 2nd/3rd line tweeners from these recent drafts already. But as we all already know, the Wings have a wacky set of characteristics they want their players to have, and they draft a lot of projects. Let's not forget either that the Wings have almost no roster space for young players. That's why they love to roll the dice. They can deal with the busts and slot the phenoms right on in. They seem to operate a large part of their draft that way.
This all sounds like conjecture.

Quote:
That said, this most recent crop of draft picks are going to have a more immediate effect. Sheahan, Jurco, Sproul, Ouellet, etc are on a faster track to NHL ice than most guys the Wings take. Others like Jarnkrok, Nyquist, Smith, Aubry, Tvrdon, and of course Mrazek are going to have taken some time before hitting NHL ice.
Not sure that's true.

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05-21-2012, 04:18 PM
  #121
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1. The Fedorov/Lidstrom picks were from another GM/Scouting department. So that's irrelevant
Not completely irrelevant.

Ken Holland wasn't the GM when they were drafted but he was the director of amateur scouting when both were scouted and selected.

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05-21-2012, 04:20 PM
  #122
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From 2005 to 2009, the 2006 players just lost their waiver eligibility from their draft, which is when the wings bring up most players. So no, it is much to early to judge those picks especially ones as late as 2009.

The wings take projects based on where they pick and have 2 stud type prospects coming from those years. Nyquist and Smith. Nyquist in his first year of pro hockey tore up the AHL on a bad team, and than made the wings come the end of the season. Something pretty unheard of by wings style of development. Smith is also a top defensive prospect in the entire league.
Nyquist coming in and playing the playoffs has been done with Ericsson, Helm and Abdelkader and Quincey.

Quote:
The wings make their players take time, work their way up the ranks before finally allowing them to really take hold of offensive roles. Filppula and Franzen were the same way, before that Datsyuk and Zetterberg were and now they have a pipe line that could provide some more potential game breakers.
Zetterberg began his career in Detroit on a line with Datsyuk and Hull.\
Datsyuk was playing with Hull 20 games into the season.

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05-21-2012, 04:21 PM
  #123
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Not completely irrelevant.

Ken Holland wasn't the GM when they were drafted but he was the director of amateur scouting when both were scouted and selected.
Different Euro scout.
Fedorov was a Jim Lites/JimmyD thing.
Had nothing to do with Wings scouting. Everyone knew about Fedorov. But not all teams wasted picks on Russian that would need to defect.

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05-21-2012, 04:24 PM
  #124
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05-21-2012, 05:20 PM
  #125
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Originally Posted by MoreGore View Post
This is a perfect example of why Red Wing picks get over rated. You have some belief that Detroit likes to draft late round steals, as if they only can do it. Well guess what, they haven't done it in a decade. The reality is that they did a good job in the 90's, but that was a looooong time ago.

Facts are facts, they have not been able to get late round hall of famers in 15 years.
I didn't say steals. I said that's the type of player Detroit TRIES to draft.

Think of it this way: when you're at the draft table, you have a bunch of options in front of you, and you've got a fair amount of information. What you want to know is how good a player can be, how likely they are to make it, and so on. Most players don't have high scores in those two categories that I mentioned; in fact, they usually have roughly opposing scores. You'll have guys with only okay upside, but they're sure things, and you'll have guys with monstrous upside but they're really iffy.

What I said was Detroit LOVES those second types. They have had the luxury of gambling on a large percentage of their draft picks. Has it been working out? Depends on what you believe. but they damn sure love to do it.

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