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Old
05-21-2012, 05:26 PM
  #126
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Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
a couple things- the better the player, the quicker they make the show.
Defense takes longer.
No surprises.
Agree to disagree on the first point. Zetterberg and Datsyuk both took their sweet time. That's evidence enough.

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This all sounds like conjecture.
This entire post and by extension this entire forum is conjecture. To pretend there's a reasonable burden of proof on a forum constructed mostly of daydreams and stat quotation is ridiculous.

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Not sure that's true.
Considering the only "controversial" claim I make here is that the group of Sheahan, Jurco, Sproul, and Ouellet are going to make it to the NHL before the group of Aubry, Tvrdon, and Mrazek, I am pretty sure this will be the case.

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05-21-2012, 05:53 PM
  #127
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Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
Really?
Until we have the next Datsyuik, Zetterberg or Lidstrom step up, I don't see it.
If they have them, how could they afford to keep them? They don't need them right now especially if Holland can land Suter this offseason or Weber when he becomes a RFA.

And even if DRWs don't draft another Datsyuik, Zetterberg or Lidstrom, they still have some nice looking prospects in the farm. Boston already proved that you don't need a roster full of stars to win a cup.

I will worry about this team when Mike Ilitch dies. That's my biggest fear. As long as he owns it, he'll employ the best hockey minds in the world to see they stay competitive.

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05-21-2012, 05:58 PM
  #128
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Originally Posted by HTT3 View Post
If they have them, how could they afford to keep them? They don't need them right now especially if Holland can land Suter this offseason or Weber when he becomes a RFA.

And even if DRWs don't draft another Datsyuik, Zetterberg or Lidstrom, they still have some nice looking prospects in the farm. Boston already proved that you don't need a roster full of stars to win a cup.

I will worry about this team when Mike Ilitch dies. That's my biggest fear. As long as he owns it, he'll employ the best hockey minds in the world to see they stay competitive.
Chris Ilitch will still take good care of the team. I'm more worried about when Holland/Nill/Andersson are gone.

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05-21-2012, 07:38 PM
  #129
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Originally Posted by Eerie Hurdler View Post
I didn't say steals. I said that's the type of player Detroit TRIES to draft.

Think of it this way: when you're at the draft table, you have a bunch of options in front of you, and you've got a fair amount of information. What you want to know is how good a player can be, how likely they are to make it, and so on. Most players don't have high scores in those two categories that I mentioned; in fact, they usually have roughly opposing scores. You'll have guys with only okay upside, but they're sure things, and you'll have guys with monstrous upside but they're really iffy.

What I said was Detroit LOVES those second types. They have had the luxury of gambling on a large percentage of their draft picks. Has it been working out? Depends on what you believe. but they damn sure love to do it.
This is a "look at us, we do it differently" idea. It really is not based on fact. If it were they would find success on occasion, but they do not, and have not since Zetterberg. They draft like every other team does. They had a dry spell for a while, but they seem to have done well recently.

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05-21-2012, 07:49 PM
  #130
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Originally Posted by MoreGore View Post
This is a "look at us, we do it differently" idea. It really is not based on fact. If it were they would find success on occasion, but they do not, and have not since Zetterberg. They draft like every other team does. They had a dry spell for a while, but they seem to have done well recently.
I think it's funny that this is what this thread has boiled down to.

Detroit does this!

Nuh uh, Detroit does not!

At some point I expect somebody's mom to put us all in our own corners for time out.

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05-21-2012, 09:55 PM
  #131
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Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
Nyquist coming in and playing the playoffs has been done with Ericsson, Helm and Abdelkader and Quincey.

Zetterberg began his career in Detroit on a line with Datsyuk and Hull.\
Datsyuk was playing with Hull 20 games into the season.
Yeah, and when Detroit was in a dry spell Nyquist got a call up after about only 10 games of pro experience to his name to try and jump start the offense. Did that happen with any of those other guys? Quincey was called up after about 4 injuries hit. Helm and Abdelkader were called up to be unleashed and hit everything from the fourth line, Nyquist was called up to score, even played a large chunk of time with Datsyuk on the top line

And its funny, you try to be the wings fan who goes against everything anyone has to say about them being decent in any respect. Just like your last sentence, you make it sound like Datsyuk with Hull was the top line, meanwhile they were playing third line with Boyd Deveraux for the exact reason I said... there were vets in the line up ahead of Datsyuk so he wasnt given big PP minutes or played in the top 6 immediately

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05-21-2012, 10:02 PM
  #132
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Originally Posted by Eerie Hurdler View Post
Agree to disagree on the first point. Zetterberg and Datsyuk both took their sweet time. That's evidence enough.

They made it in three years. Faster than every other player I listed.

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05-21-2012, 10:05 PM
  #133
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Originally Posted by newfy View Post
Yeah, and when Detroit was in a dry spell Nyquist got a call up after about only 10 games of pro experience to his name to try and jump start the offense. Did that happen with any of those other guys? Quincey was called up after about 4 injuries hit. Helm and Abdelkader were called up to be unleashed and hit everything from the fourth line, Nyquist was called up to score, even played a large chunk of time with Datsyuk on the top line

And its funny, you try to be the wings fan who goes against everything anyone has to say about them being decent in any respect. Just like your last sentence, you make it sound like Datsyuk with Hull was the top line, meanwhile they were playing third line with Boyd Deveraux for the exact reason I said... there were vets in the line up ahead of Datsyuk so he wasnt given big PP minutes or played in the top 6 immediately
Get over it. I am just trying to keep the conversation on track.
What I said is exactly true. Datsyuk made his way on to a line with Hull by the 20th game (give or take a few games). Call it the third line, but it was often the Wings' best line.
In the second half of the season, he was among the leading Red Wing point getters and he was getting time on the PP> No small feat on a team that included Fedorov, Yzerman, Larionov, Hull, Robitaille, Shanahan, etc.

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05-21-2012, 10:08 PM
  #134
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Originally Posted by HTT3 View Post
If they have them, how could they afford to keep them? They don't need them right now especially if Holland can land Suter this offseason or Weber when he becomes a RFA.
They need them NOW, the same way this team needed Datsyuk to step in in 2001-2 and Zetterberg to step in 2002-03.
Datsyuk and Zetterberg getting up there in age.

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And even if DRWs don't draft another Datsyuik, Zetterberg or Lidstrom, they still have some nice looking prospects in the farm. Boston already proved that you don't need a roster full of stars to win a cup.
Fine. So what makes you say our future looks bright?

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I will worry about this team when Mike Ilitch dies. That's my biggest fear. As long as he owns it, he'll employ the best hockey minds in the world to see they stay competitive.
He may try. but there are no guarantees.
Great players are the hallmark of the Red Wings. World. Class. Talent.

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05-21-2012, 10:48 PM
  #135
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Question for Red Wings fans:

Is Jimmy Howard considered your goalie of the future or do you think Mrazek the guy the Wings are waiting for? It seems obvious that the Wings already have their long term goalie in Howard but at the same time I'm hearing a lot lately that the Wings need a goalie, that Howard can't get the job done etc.

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05-21-2012, 11:28 PM
  #136
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Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
They need them NOW, the same way this team needed Datsyuk to step in in 2001-2 and Zetterberg to step in 2002-03.
Datsyuk and Zetterberg getting up there in age.
To me, the little Nyquist played almost looked as good as Z and Dats did their rookie year (except Nyquist only got to play a handful of games while Dats and Z got a full season in). Dats and Z were a pleasant surprise to everyone after a couple years in the NHL. You didn't know in 2003 they would be the players they become.



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Fine. So what makes you say our future looks bright?
Think I wrote it in the post you quoted; "have some nice looking prospects in the farm". Not to mention the fact that Red Wings have an owner committed to employing the best hockey minds in the world.


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He may try. but there are no guarantees.
Great players are the hallmark of the Red Wings. World. Class. Talent.
Wings success start with the management. Red Wings "World. Class. Talent" was great when their was no cap. Now less skilled teams are winning the cup. Wings don't need the skill of the 2002 team to win a cup, they just need the right pieces, (chemistry) and health. The rest will work itself out.

Hey listen, you don't have to agree with me, I'm just saying don't jump off the bridge just yet. Lets see how some of the talent in farm turn out before getting all suicidal.

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Originally Posted by Spezzator View Post
Question for Red Wings fans:

Is Jimmy Howard considered your goalie of the future or do you think Mrazek the guy the Wings are waiting for? It seems obvious that the Wings already have their long term goalie in Howard but at the same time I'm hearing a lot lately that the Wings need a goalie, that Howard can't get the job done etc.
Howard is considered the goalie of the future, he just signed a 2-year deal. If he keeps playing well, he will get re-signed to another deal. Mrazek is a pleasant surprise but he's got a long way to go. If he outplays Howard when he gets here, he'll become the new starter. I think ideally Holland and Co. would love a 1A/1B goalie situation if both equally as good. But to answer your question, Howard is the man.


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05-21-2012, 11:55 PM
  #137
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spezzator View Post
Question for Red Wings fans:

Is Jimmy Howard considered your goalie of the future or do you think Mrazek the guy the Wings are waiting for? It seems obvious that the Wings already have their long term goalie in Howard but at the same time I'm hearing a lot lately that the Wings need a goalie, that Howard can't get the job done etc.
If they were both willing to share time in net the Wings should be able to have both. Howard will be near his mid 30s by the time Mrazek's entry level contract were to expire. (Assuming it takes him 3-4 years to make it pro)

Also, Nyquist's main concern during the summer is to gain weight. He has all the skills to be a good offensive player, he just get's pushed off the puck too much.

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05-22-2012, 12:37 AM
  #138
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Originally Posted by HTT3 View Post
To me, the little Nyquist played almost looked as good as Z and Dats did their rookie year (except Nyquist only got to play a handful of games while Dats and Z got a full season in). Dats and Z were a pleasant surprise to everyone after a couple years in the NHL. You didn't know in 2003 they would be the players they become.
I think we all knew quickly that both guys were special
What we didn't know was, are they going to be World. Class. Talent. + Playoff Performers.

I don't see Nyquist having anywhere near the kind of talent possessed by Datsyuk. Maybe a bit like Zetterberg, but I don't sense the same drive Z has/had.

Nyquist feels more in line with Flip -- Maybe not quite as dynamic a skater and as good defensively, but he has more puck skills, I think.

Maybe he turns into World. Class. Talent.
Not sure. Don't have that vibe now, though.


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Think I wrote it in the post you quoted; "have some nice looking prospects in the farm". Not to mention the fact that Red Wings have an owner committed to employing the best hockey minds in the world.
Fair enough.

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Wings success start with the management. Red Wings "World. Class. Talent" was great when their was no cap. Now less skilled teams are winning the cup. Wings don't need the skill of the 2002 team to win a cup, they just need the right pieces, (chemistry) and health. The rest will work itself out.
Datsyuk. Zetterberg. Lidstrom = World. Class. Talent.
If the Wings are going to start winning with less than World Class Talent, they need some hard ass grinders.

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Hey listen, you don't have to agree with me, I'm just saying don't jump off the bridge just yet. Lets see how some of the talent in farm turn out before getting all suicidal.
Oh, I ain't saying these guys won't develop. I was pretty high on Jurco until the London game the other day. And I really like all the defensive talent we picked up in the last draft. Lots of good forwards, too ... Tverdon and Jarnkrok and Sheahan, etc...
But any one like Feds? Yzerman? Lidstrom? Shanahan? Datsyuk? Zetterberg?
That's what I don't see right now.

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Howard is considered the goalie of the future, he just signed a 2-year deal. If he keeps playing well, he will get re-signed to another deal. Mrazek is a pleasant surprise but he's got a long way to go. If he outplays Howard when he gets here, he'll become the new starter. I think ideally Holland and Co. would love a 1A/1B goalie situation if both equally as good. But to answer your question, Howard is the man.
Howie has a huge year coming up. Gonna be interesting to see how he handles it.

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05-22-2012, 01:08 AM
  #139
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Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
I think we all knew quickly that both guys were special
What we didn't know was, are they going to be World. Class. Talent. + Playoff Performers.

I don't see Nyquist having anywhere near the kind of talent possessed by Datsyuk. Maybe a bit like Zetterberg, but I don't sense the same drive Z has/had.

Nyquist feels more in line with Flip -- Maybe not quite as dynamic a skater and as good defensively, but he has more puck skills, I think.
Nyquist seemed to possess more of Datsyuks' savvy-ness to me. I remember a few games where Gus' brilliance created optimal scoring chances where he whiffed on the puck for a wide open net chance. He should of had a few more goals than he did during his short stint in the NHL. If my math is right, he was on pace for 30 points if he played a full season. In comparison, Datsyuk scored 35 points his first full season.


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Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
Datsyuk. Zetterberg. Lidstrom = World. Class. Talent.
If the Wings are going to start winning with less than World Class Talent, they need some hard ass grinders.
Holland has been drafting more size than usual. He's also picking boom or bust. Most will be busts, it only takes 1 or 2 booms every 5-10 yrs. They seem to be doing that. Can it continue? I don't see why not.


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Oh, I ain't saying these guys won't develop. I was pretty high on Jurco until the London game the other day. And I really like all the defensive talent we picked up in the last draft. Lots of good forwards, too ... Tverdon and Jarnkrok and Sheahan, etc...
I didn't watch that game but I read Jurco wasn't shying away from physical play. To me that is a good sign. He's got the talent. I'm not worried about him being inconsistent in one televised game. I would be more worried if he has a inconsistent season.

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But any one like Feds? Yzerman? Lidstrom? Shanahan? Datsyuk? Zetterberg?
That's what I don't see right now.
Shanahan wasn't drafted by the Detroit Red Wings, he was traded for. Not sure why he is on your list. Maybe Holland lands Parise and he'll be your "Shanahan". Yzerman was a 4th overall pick. Not sure you'll see any guys as skilled as he was when he was drafted until they 'break out'. There is a reason why Yzerman was a 4th overall pick. And Datsyuk and Zetterberg came out of nowhere. Nobody knew they were going to be superstars in the NHL.

I guess my point is just because you don't "see it" doesn't mean it "can't" be there. Anything can happen. Maybe Holland has the best offseason we've seen since 2002, maybe Sheahan develops into Toews caliber, maybe Nyquist because a Z and D hybrid when he gains weight... who knows.

I look at it like this, lots of bad things has happened to Detroit the past few years between losing Fischer to a heart condition, Grigs to a car accident, Assistant coaches leaving for NHL coaching jobs, and all the recent injuries before playoffs begin... They are due for a break for good things to happen.

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Howie has a huge year coming up. Gonna be interesting to see how he handles it.
Hopefully Holland signs a capable backup this time around to relieve some workload off Jimmy.

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05-22-2012, 03:48 AM
  #140
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They made it in three years. Faster than every other player I listed.
Dats didn't make the NHL until he was 23. Cmon now.

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05-22-2012, 11:22 AM
  #141
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Dats didn't make the NHL until he was 23. Cmon now.
He was on the team 3 years after being drafted.

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05-22-2012, 02:29 PM
  #142
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He was on the team 3 years after being drafted.
Right, and he was passed over multiple times. What point are you trying to make? Should we start drafting overagers because they have a greater chance of becoming pro players faster? After all, faster=better!

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05-23-2012, 12:01 AM
  #143
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Right, and he was passed over multiple times. What point are you trying to make? Should we start drafting overagers because they have a greater chance of becoming pro players faster? After all, faster=better!
So?
What point are you trying to make?

I'm simply stating facts. I listed the players and how quickly they established themselves on the roster.

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