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Ovechkin to Montreal

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Old
05-14-2012, 08:12 PM
  #51
CapitalsCupFantasy
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Montreal doesn't have the horses to pull this one off. ELITE talent would have to be coming back.

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05-14-2012, 08:13 PM
  #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Miller Time View Post
* preface by saying that unless Ovie makes waves, it's unlikely the Caps look to move him*


IF, it turns out that despite the "good soldier" routine, Ovechkin is not happy about the direction of the team under Hunter, and Mcphee/Leonsis decide they want to pursue the "Hunter direction", what kind of value does Ovechkin command in trade (keeping in mind that a 9M$+ cap hit is not feasible for every team, limiting potential suitors)?

would this be enough from Montreal?


To Wash
3rd overall
Gionta
Tinordi
Kristo
Bourque or Kaberle (added only IF the caps wanted either 1)




To Mtl
Ovechkin
S.Galiev


breaks down to:
top pick/prospect
veteran goal scoring winger suited to a defense-first approach
solid prospect D (with ties to the organization -Hunter/his father)
solid prospect fwd
struggling vet (not quite a dump, as both Bourque/Kaberle are still serviceable, albeit with less than stellar contracts... again, only IF Caps wanted one of them)

all for an elite sniper owed 88M$ over the next 9 seasons (and coming off of career worst season with 65pts), and a solid prospect.



Habs get elite sniper (and hopefully hire a coach who "let's ovie be ovie") and a solid prospect.
Caps get "quantity", but pretty solid return nonetheless (with a player like Ovie, almost impossible to get equal "quality" individual player in return, but these pieces represent more than fair value for a guy who is signed to a 9M$+ cap hit until he's 35), and a solid fwd prospect.

discuss.
A bit of an overpayment by the Habs but we might consider it.

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Old
05-14-2012, 08:15 PM
  #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NobodyBeatsTheWiz View Post
Montreal is literally one of the two or three worst possible trade targets for Ovechkin, if it were to ever come to that.

No young franchise player, no blue chip prospects, no top-level NHL vets.





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Old
05-14-2012, 08:41 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Haatley View Post
If gretzky can be traded from edmonton to la than anyone can be moved.

habs have no issue making that pac, pk, 2012 1st if they had the chance
Your joking...after watching the Caps "Captain" fall flat on his face when his team needed him the most.
NO THANKS!

I like our young core and our prospects .... Patience Habs fan.... You can't undo all the brain farts from the previous administration in one summer.

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Old
05-14-2012, 08:42 PM
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CapitalsCupFantasy View Post
Montreal doesn't have the horses to pull this one off. ELITE talent would have to be coming back.
Whens the last time you saw elite talent get traded for elite talent?

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Old
05-14-2012, 10:39 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by nyhabsfan View Post
Your joking...after watching the Caps "Captain" fall flat on his face when his team needed him the most.
NO THANKS!

I like our young core and our prospects .... Patience Habs fan.... You can't undo all the brain farts from the previous administration in one summer.
So scoring 9 points in 14 games against the two best defensive teams in the Eastern Conference, with limited ice time in a defense-first system, while being separated from Backstrom and being centered by a glorified 3rd liner in Brooks Laich, is falling flat on his face? How about having the third most hits of anyone in the playoffs?

Well, I guess he did set the bar pretty damn high by having the highest playoff PPG of any active player.

If I were to throw out a hypothetical trade...

Ovechkin, Johansson, Brouwer, Caps 1st

for

Pacioretty, Plekanec, Gorges, Habs 1st

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Old
05-15-2012, 12:06 AM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CapitalsCupFantasy View Post
Montreal doesn't have the horses to pull this one off. ELITE talent would have to be coming back.
some would argue that the any one of the players available at 3rd overall (one of yakupov/galchenyuk/murray/forsberg/dumba) have elite talent/potential, and it would be pretty hard to disagree.


certainly wouldn't be a shock if the Caps had no desire/intention to trade Ovechkin whatsoever.

but his comments today, about doing what the coach said and being a "plumber", you could tell there was some irritation in his tone. Not sure how close he and Semin are, but Semin made it clear that he didn't want to be back (not that the caps were interested either).

A franchise player like Ovechkin is likely to want to put his two-cents in for the new HC search, and if Mcphee makes it clear he's looking for someone who will resemble Hunter's defensive first philosophy (J.Martin comes to mind), does a 26 year old Ovechkin happily go along or does he make waves?

IF he makes waves (which is the premise of this discussion thread), what kind of return do you envision?

Are there really any "Elite Talents" out there who are
A- available
B- close enough to Ovie in skill level AND signed for several more years

if that's what McPhee were to hold out for, good luck finding that combo...

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Old
05-15-2012, 12:21 AM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Riptide View Post
...Now they've spent 8-10m on their D. That leaves ~10m to fill out their forwards. They couldn't afford Gorges 4m unless salary is going the other way.

Alzner 1.2
Carlson RFA (800k - probably resigns for ~3m)
Green RFA (5.25 - probably resigns for ~5-6m)
Wideman UFA (4)
Hamrlik 3.5
Schultz 2.75
Erskine 1.5
Poti 2.87
Besides Hunter quit... so Ovie/Hunter's issues are no longer a problem.
Yes, but with Ovi leaving there's another 10M to fill out the forwards roster. Plus the bolded players aren't likely Caps/counting towards the cap by the start of the seasons. And if Gorges and Tinordi came I would say that Hamrlik and Schultz/Erskine would be on their way out as well.

I really like the idea of these D-pairing growing together and finding chemistry for a long time

Gorges-Green
Alzner-Carlson
Tinordi-Orlov

"Offense wins games, defense wins championships"

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Old
05-15-2012, 12:54 AM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeh82 View Post
I think I was unclear, or that you misunderstood my post. Let me try again.

I didn't say that the packages were equal. I said that 3rd OA + Tinordi is marginally more valuable than 11th + Eakin. We can quibble over how big that difference is (I think a 2nd is about right), but I hope you can agree that isn't going to make a significant impact in acquiring a player like Ovechkin.

Tinordi is a good prospect, but he has limited offensive upside--a good second-pairing defensemen would seem a fair projection. Eakin projects to 3rd line role. The difference between them is significant, but not enough to make up the gap between 3rd and 11th overall in a draft that has a top tier of about six players. In other words, you are right that the straight value isn't fair. To balance the rest of the deal, it might make sense.

But the rest of your trade doesn't really help the Capitals.

Moving Ovechkin would create a sizable hole in the Capitals forward line-up on the wing, so I can't see them moving him for a package that is centered on a 2C and 3/4D. Gorges might be a good match with Green, but Carlson / Alzner will continue to grow as the top-pairing. Laich is adequate as a 2C, or Johansson might move back from wing. Moving Laich to wing does little to replace Ovechkin's offense, thought it might make the team better defensively.

I think it makes much more sense to drop Gorges and the 11th, and swap Pacioretty for Plekanec:

2012 1st (3rd OA)
Pacioretty
Tinordi

for

Ovechkin
Eakin

If that is off, then add something back on the Caps end--but not the 11th overall.
IMO Caps build this team the wrong way, or atleast didn't choose the right players when they drafted, because they're weak down the middle and on the back-end which should be the core. Just look at the recent Cup-winners.

If Ovie left I think the Caps should re-sign and promote Semin, he has the same kind of talent but hasn't been given the room and icetime to shine. Plus he grew a lot under Hunter. He would fill the hole left by Ovechkin to some extent and leave a little extra wiggle space towards the cap to fill the missing pieces.
Without anymore trades or UFA signings (which I still hope they would) I'd say the Caps are a more complete team this way.

Semin-Backstrom-Brouwer
Laich-Plekanec-Johansson
Chimera-Beagle-Ward
Hendricks-Perreault-Sjogren

Gorges-Green
Alzner-Carlson
Hamrlik-Orlov (and eventually Tinordi instead of Hammer)

The 3rd pick put togehter with Johansson might fetch a Bobby Ryan-type or someone of his likes for the top-6.

Then try and sign a 3C like Chris Kelly or Jarrett Stoll for around 2,75M

Do whatever you can to get rid of Ward's contract, not because he's a bad player but because he earns to much for what he brings.

Use the other first, Caps one, the 16th OA and Galiev and try to pry away Kyle Okposo or Nikolai Kulemin for the 2nd line.

Flip Schultz for a 4th line grinder, say Bryan Bickell from Chicago and you have

Semin-Backstrom-Ryan
Laich-Plekanec-Okposo
Chimera-Kelly-Brouwer
Hendricks-Beagle-Bickell

Gorges-Green
Alzner-Carlson
Hamrlik-Orlov
Erskine

Holtby-Neuvirth

And that my friend, is a contender with 4-6M in capspace to spare

You are welcome, GMGM

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Old
05-15-2012, 04:41 AM
  #60
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Originally Posted by Zoidberg Jesus View Post
So scoring 9 points in 14 games against the two best defensive teams in the Eastern Conference, with limited ice time in a defense-first system, while being separated from Backstrom and being centered by a glorified 3rd liner in Brooks Laich, is falling flat on his face? How about having the third most hits of anyone in the playoffs?

Well, I guess he did set the bar pretty damn high by having the highest playoff PPG of any active player.

If I were to throw out a hypothetical trade...

Ovechkin, Johansson, Brouwer, Caps 1st

for

Pacioretty, Plekanec, Gorges, Habs 1st




The highest playoff PPG of any active player...Malkin,Crosby both say hi. In this season,Kovalchuk,Brown ..... A bunch all say hi.
Nah pass.Habs will keep their 1st rd pick ty.


Last edited by mytor4*: 05-15-2012 at 04:53 AM.
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Old
05-15-2012, 05:20 AM
  #61
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Originally Posted by topdog View Post
The highest playoff PPG of any active player...Malkin,Crosby both say hi. In this season,Kovalchuk,Brown ..... A bunch all say hi.
Nah pass.Habs will keep their 1st rd pick ty.
Ovie was the highest coming into this year. Would've stayed the highest, too, if he'd been shooting on Bryz instead of Thomas and Lundqvist.

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05-15-2012, 08:37 AM
  #62
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Originally Posted by Zoidberg Jesus View Post
So scoring 9 points in 14 games against the two best defensive teams in the Eastern Conference, with limited ice time in a defense-first system, while being separated from Backstrom and being centered by a glorified 3rd liner in Brooks Laich, is falling flat on his face? How about having the third most hits of anyone in the playoffs?

Well, I guess he did set the bar pretty damn high by having the highest playoff PPG of any active player.

If I were to throw out a hypothetical trade...

Ovechkin, Johansson, Brouwer, Caps 1st

for

Pacioretty, Plekanec, Gorges, Habs 1st 2012
As a Habs fan, I would accept this.

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Old
05-15-2012, 09:12 AM
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Haatley View Post
If gretzky can be traded from edmonton to la than anyone can be moved.

habs have no issue making that pac, pk, 2012 1st if they had the chance
Can we cease with this stupid line of reasoning for nonsense proposals? It lacks the proper context that facilitated that trade to begin with and is wholly irrelevant. Gretzky was traded because Edmonton, at the time, was in financial arrears and Pocklington, their own, wanted money as other business ventures of his were falling through. Considering trades like Gretzky's are now illegal in just about every league and no team will turn over the obscene cost to acquire a superstar, even one who has struggled. No, not anyone can be moved. The exceptions to that rule are always moronic trades that often do more damage than assistance to the team, or look horrendous in hindsight.

Onto the trade itself, not only does Montreal not wish to move the pieces necessary. Ovie is not presently worth his contract. Frankly, it is borderline awful unless he can find his second gear. He scored the same number of points, on a better team, as Pacioretty and is making over six million more.

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05-15-2012, 09:19 AM
  #64
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Originally Posted by Bourne Endeavor View Post
Can we cease with this stupid line of reasoning for nonsense proposals? It lacks the proper context that facilitated that trade to begin with and is wholly irrelevant. Gretzky was traded because Edmonton, at the time, was in financial arrears and Pocklington, their own, wanted money as other business ventures of his were falling through. Considering trades like Gretzky's are now illegal in just about every league and no team will turn over the obscene cost to acquire a superstar, even one who has struggled. No, not anyone can be moved. The exceptions to that rule are always moronic trades that often do more damage than assistance to the team, or look horrendous in hindsight.

Onto the trade itself, not only does Montreal not wish to move the pieces necessary. Ovie is not presently worth his contract. Frankly, it is borderline awful unless he can find his second gear. He scored the same number of points, on a better team, as Pacioretty and is making over six million more.
I disagree with you totally. When people use the 'If Gretzky can be traded" line. They normally do not preface it by saying or even caring why he was traded. It makes ZERO difference for what reason he was traded. The fact that the best player ever was traded at or near his peak is all that needs to be said. No one at all is untradeable under the right circumstances, even with the cap and contracts as they are.

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Old
05-15-2012, 09:24 AM
  #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Miller Time View Post

would this be enough from Montreal?


To Wash
3rd overall
Gionta
Tinordi
Kristo
Bourque or Kaberle (added only IF the caps wanted either 1)




To Mtl
Ovechkin
S.Galiev
Two players with negative value, one average prospect, a below-average one and the 3rd overall in a weak draft. No, it is not enough.

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05-15-2012, 09:38 AM
  #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zoidberg Jesus View Post
If I were to throw out a hypothetical trade...

Ovechkin, Johansson, Brouwer, Caps 1st
for
Pacioretty, Plekanec, Gorges, Habs 1st
you're INSANE.

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Old
05-15-2012, 09:46 AM
  #67
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IF OV was actually made available everyone would be calling. This means that a package similar to Patch, PK, and a 1st would be what it actually takes. Personally, I think Patch, tinordi, and the 3rd pick sounds a little more reasonable, but for Ovechkin I think you could see even more going to the caps.

I understand why Montreal fans would not want to do this trade, as OV has a lot of pressure on him and going to a depleted Habs organization (due to sending these young players the other way) probably would be difficult, especially in the short-term. However, I think people forget how dominant this guy really is. He is still very young, and I think wearing the C at this point in his career was just too much. That being said he is a generational talent and IMO he will get back on the MVP track.

While a team may feel they are giving up a lot, people are forgetting these are proposals in a buy-low window. A buy-low window in which this guy almost hit 40 goals in the regular season and looked dangerous in the playoffs.

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05-15-2012, 10:00 AM
  #68
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Originally Posted by Kiss The Ring View Post
Two players with negative value, one average prospect, a below-average one and the 3rd overall in a weak draft. No, it is not enough.
Gionta, while a touch overpaid, is certainly not "negative value".

recent 1st round picks that captain their teams to the memorial cup, while being recognized as top-5 in their league at their position aren't exactly "average".

and then I guess you didn't even bother the original post... bourque/kaberle would only be added if Wash decided they wanted one of them (which is not out of the question, both struggled last year, but are still everyday NHLers)

if you're going to critique it, might as well actually take the time to think before you post.

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Old
05-15-2012, 10:21 AM
  #69
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Originally Posted by Miller Time View Post
Gionta, while a touch overpaid, is certainly not "negative value".

recent 1st round picks that captain their teams to the memorial cup, while being recognized as top-5 in their league at their position aren't exactly "average".

and then I guess you didn't even bother the original post... bourque/kaberle would only be added if Wash decided they wanted one of them (which is not out of the question, both struggled last year, but are still everyday NHLers)

if you're going to critique it, might as well actually take the time to think before you post.
Don't bother with him

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05-15-2012, 10:29 AM
  #70
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Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
Whens the last time you saw elite talent get traded for elite talent?
Caps aren't fools. They would hold onto him rather than accept quantity for quality. Ovechkin is a name that transcends the game. He's a ticket seller in a game of mostly anonymous players (to the average sports fan).

Now if he were to demand a trade, sure I could see less of a return if the Caps agreed. It would be franchise suicide if no star talent came back. Not happening.

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05-15-2012, 10:31 AM
  #71
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Ovechkins stats has regressed for three straight years. Coupled with his albatross contract and his value is only to the Caps. They can have him and his decline.

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Old
05-15-2012, 10:50 AM
  #72
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Originally Posted by Kiss The Ring View Post
Two players with negative value, one average prospect, a below-average one and the 3rd overall in a weak draft. No, it is not enough.
Who are the two players with negative value? Please tell me you are not trying to imply Gionta, a guy who consistently gets between 20-30 goals per season for 7 straight before he was injured has negative value. Does that mean Mike Green has negative value due to his 2 straight injury plagued seasons? I also hope you don't think Kaberle, an offensive defenceman who was 40th among all defencemen in total points this year, is a negative. You do realize he had a horrible start in Carolina but in Montreal was on pace for a 41 point season. Even with his weak start he had only one less point than Carlson in 10 less games! Does that mean Carlson has negative value?

Who is the "average" prospect? Tinordi, the physical, punishing, defensive defenceman who has a good break out pass, can fight, and was a stand out at the Worlds?

The 3rd overall pick in a weak draft is not worth much? I think Forsberg, Galchenyuk, Murray and some others would be worth you doing some research on before spouting statements like that.

I don't think the OP would be the type of package that could get Ovechkin because of Washington's NEEDS, but the value is far more significant than you obviously realize.

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Old
05-15-2012, 11:57 AM
  #73
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Originally Posted by Zoidberg Jesus View Post
So scoring 9 points in 14 games against the two best defensive teams in the Eastern Conference, with limited ice time in a defense-first system, while being separated from Backstrom and being centered by a glorified 3rd liner in Brooks Laich, is falling flat on his face? How about having the third most hits of anyone in the playoffs?

Well, I guess he did set the bar pretty damn high by having the highest playoff PPG of any active player.

If I were to throw out a hypothetical trade...

Ovechkin, Johansson, Brouwer, Caps 1st

for

Pacioretty, Plekanec, Gorges, Habs 1st
First off Ovechkin is not being traded. He is to valuable to them both on the ice and off the ice. This offer adds in Johansson, one of the Capitals best young players, into the trade.

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05-15-2012, 12:36 PM
  #74
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Originally Posted by CapitalsCupFantasy View Post
Caps aren't fools. They would hold onto him rather than accept quantity for quality. Ovechkin is a name that transcends the game. He's a ticket seller in a game of mostly anonymous players (to the average sports fan).

Now if he were to demand a trade, sure I could see less of a return if the Caps agreed. It would be franchise suicide if no star talent came back. Not happening.
I never said the caps were fools. I never said they MUST do the OP's deal or trade OV at all. All I said is elite for elite trades don't happen very often.

I actually like OV in Washington and not in a "stay there, you suck!" kind of way. As much as I'd like him in montreal he helps the league more in washington and I prefer that.

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Old
05-15-2012, 01:16 PM
  #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Martini View Post
Ovechkins stats has regressed for three straight years. Coupled with his albatross contract and his value is only to the Caps. They can have him and his decline.
Or two, but what's a whole year when throwing out generalizations...

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