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Old
05-17-2012, 10:26 PM
  #51
Kitsy
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Originally Posted by MarkGio View Post
He was guilty. And PR reasons? Try court ordered reasons....

From Wikipedia:
"While they [Kane & his Cousin] were cleared of any felony charges, the two were still indicted on less severe misdemeanor assault, theft and harassment charges.[19] Kane and his cousin reiterated their not guilty pleas when appearing in court the next day.[20] On August 27, Kane and cousin pled guilty to noncriminal disorderly conduct charges, and were both given conditional discharges, avoiding any penalties if they stayed out of trouble for a year, and also ordered to apologize to Radecki

Again, the Kid's a punk! He only got to skate by because of his high priced lawyer.
He plead down to a conditional discharge and apologized. There is a major difference between someone pleading guilty to a lesser charge to avoid a criminal record and pleading guilty straight up. You have no idea how the cab driver was acting or the context of the situation. His only court order was to apologize to the cab driver not to apologize to the public. If you think people go to jail their first time for these charges you are mistaken. It was in the best interests of Pat Kane to take the conditional discharge and put the matter behind him rather than have the chance of being found guilty of a more severe charge and having a criminal record.

Not everyone who ever punched someone is a piece of **** and it's amazing to me that anyone would be such a kneejerk reactionary moron as to jump to conclusions as to a person's character when the context of what occurred is very much in doubt.

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05-17-2012, 11:14 PM
  #52
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If people think that a guy that was accused/pleaded guilty to choking a cab driver AND a college girl does not have an effect in a locker room, then I don't know what to say to them. A successful team needs to function as a cohesive unit, look no further than the Bruins of this year and how Thomas' comments had an impact in that locker room because the media kept bringing it up. And I don't even think that was all that bad.

Kane is an elite all world talent, however his behavior off the ice would be an enormous concern to any GM that would be looking to acquire him. I'm not saying I wouldn't want Kane, but I would not sell the farm to get him either. He is just far to big of a risk IMO.

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05-17-2012, 11:15 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Kitsy View Post
He plead down to a conditional discharge and apologized. There is a major difference between someone pleading guilty to a lesser charge to avoid a criminal record and pleading guilty straight up. You have no idea how the cab driver was acting or the context of the situation. His only court order was to apologize to the cab driver not to apologize to the public. If you think people go to jail their first time for these charges you are mistaken. It was in the best interests of Pat Kane to take the conditional discharge and put the matter behind him rather than have the chance of being found guilty of a more severe charge and having a criminal record.

Not everyone who ever punched someone is a piece of **** and it's amazing to me that anyone would be such a kneejerk reactionary moron as to jump to conclusions as to a person's character when the context of what occurred is very much in doubt.
There's a MAJOR difference between pleading guilty [blah blah blah] and pleading guilty [blah blah blah]? I might be reactionary, but I laughed a little bit at the irony of being called a moron by someone who manages to type faster than they can think. That's some slow thinking son, especially considering you had to click send at some point too.

So I don't have any idea? I read the papers, see that a man appologized for his actions, tell a judge their guilty of it (for whatever motive), and yet somehow some kid on a forum is justifying all this and trying to convince me a crime wasn't committed? I would give your mother **** for breast feeding you while drinking eh...

He doesn't have to be a punk forever. A lot of us were punks at one time, but only a fellow punk tries to justify it. But a proud man would not tell anybody their guilty - for any reasons whatsoever - if they were truly innocent. That's how I feel anyways....

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05-18-2012, 12:37 AM
  #54
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Originally Posted by MarkGio View Post
There's a MAJOR difference between pleading guilty [blah blah blah] and pleading guilty [blah blah blah]? I might be reactionary, but I laughed a little bit at the irony of being called a moron by someone who manages to type faster than they can think. That's some slow thinking son, especially considering you had to click send at some point too.

So I don't have any idea? I read the papers, see that a man appologized for his actions, tell a judge their guilty of it (for whatever motive), and yet somehow some kid on a forum is justifying all this and trying to convince me a crime wasn't committed? I would give your mother **** for breast feeding you while drinking eh...

He doesn't have to be a punk forever. A lot of us were punks at one time, but only a fellow punk tries to justify it. But a proud man would not tell anybody their guilty - for any reasons whatsoever - if they were truly innocent. That's how I feel anyways....
You do realize the difference between pleading guilty to a lesser charge right? In law there are strategic moves to make. For example, if the cab driver was involved in the altercation but Kane's lawyer felt that Kane's reaction may not be seen to a judge to rise to the level of a reasonable apprehension of harm it may be beneficial to plead guilt to a conditional discharge rather than risk having the judge make a finding of fact adverse to Kane in the trial. I explained in my post exactly what I meant but I guess you either a) care less about being right or wrong and just got butt hurt about being called a moron so needed to get some name-calling out or b) didn't understand my point. I'll assume the latter.

If he was found guilty of the charges the prosecutor wished to lay on him prior to the conditional discharge that would mean he could have been sentenced to jail time. Instead, the defence, prosecutor and judge felt it was appropriate to let Kane put the whole thing behind him with a very lenient conditional discharge and apology. That means that the three legal entities privy to the relevant information felt the situation did not have to rise to the level of a serious sentence.

I don't intend to say nothing happened whatsoever in the cab. I have made it clear that you have no idea the context of the situation. Patrick Kane had a massive amount to lose by allowing proceedings to go to trial. If he is found guilty and given a criminal record it could seriously affect future sponsorships and his public image. As evidenced by your reaction, many people jump to conclusions and make knee-jerk decisions labelling pro athletes as the terrible human beings who obviously will affect team make-up, moral, etc. There is no one in the Hawks dressing room past or present (that I have read) who say that Kane is a locker room cancer. You are going on the barest assumptions by saying you read the newspapers about the situation when the trial had never commenced. Further, there was no evidence Kane punched the cab driver.

Kane "allegedly" choked a girl. Some evidence sounds like Kane, etc were all joking around and no evidence comes from the girl or Pat Kane (which makes most of the evidence utter garbage. Nowhere does it say he was choking her hard, it could have been nothing more than horsing around.) Kane allegedly said something racist. None of that evidence was heard directly from anyone. Not one criminal charge has been laid (thus far) on the recent incident.

I'm arguing with you about this because it is dumb to have such a strong reaction to sparse evidence you read in newspapers and internet blogs. When I called you a moron I meant you were being one in this particular situation by making grandiose assumptions. I'm not calling you a flat out moron all the time. Keep in mind that the first matter was settled without criminal charges and the second matter hasn't had any charges laid. This is all speculative dribble that the media loves to amplify for entertainment.

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05-18-2012, 12:38 AM
  #55
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05-18-2012, 08:33 AM
  #56
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Kane has quite a skillset. I don't like the guy all that much, I don't really care too much about off ice issues, but I don't think he is half the star if the captain of Chicago isn't there.

Would I like him in Calgary? I mean at the right cost for sure... But to get him out of Chicago would cost all the good feaster has done in the past year.

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05-18-2012, 09:02 AM
  #57
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Kane is an amazingly talented player but has had several off ice problems (Cab incident, allegedly choked a girl, etc) as well I have heard from several people in London that Kane was arrogant and hard to like off the ice when he played there. I don't think he is the kind of player we need around the young players we will be bringing up in the next few years especially at what he would cost.

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05-18-2012, 09:06 AM
  #58
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Originally Posted by TheGleninator View Post
Kane is an amazingly talented player but has had several off ice problems (Cab incident, allegedly choked a girl, etc) as well I have heard from several people in London that Kane was arrogant and hard to like off the ice when he played there. I don't think he is the kind of player we need around the young players we will be bringing up in the next few years especially at what he would cost.
That was my whole freaking point, lol. And now this thread has turned into an all out brawl...wow. This is going to be a long summer around these parts.

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05-18-2012, 10:02 AM
  #59
Johnny Hoxville
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@ Gnome, you got that right

Kitsy actually has the honor of being the very first to make my Ignore List, congrats to him lol. I don't have the time for posters like him that just try to come up with weak points for the sake of starting an argument.

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05-18-2012, 11:21 AM
  #60
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Originally Posted by MVW View Post
@ Gnome, you got that right

Kitsy actually has the honor of being the very first to make my Ignore List, congrats to him lol. I don't have the time for posters like him that just try to come up with weak points for the sake of starting an argument.
Well that's nice. You seem quite content to ignore opinions that clash with yours. There are a few other guys who will dittohead your conclusions around here but I would hope they have the mental fortitude to try and defend their positions. Otherwise, what is the point of discussing anything here if you are afraid to be called out on what you write? "Man Pat Kane's an idiot, women beater, criminal"... "Yeah, no way he would help the Flames"... "You know he didn't plead to criminal charges right? And no one has had any reliable evidence of the choking right?"... "Block this loser with his weak arguments. Facts are stupid".

If you can't read this post it's just as well but I wanted to respond anyway.

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05-18-2012, 11:31 AM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Kitsy View Post
Well that's nice. You seem quite content to ignore opinions that clash with yours. There are a few other guys who will dittohead your conclusions around here but I would hope they have the mental fortitude to try and defend their positions. Otherwise, what is the point of discussing anything here if you are afraid to be called out on what you write? "Man Pat Kane's an idiot, women beater, criminal"... "Yeah, no way he would help the Flames"... "You know he didn't plead to criminal charges right? And no one has had any reliable evidence of the choking right?"... "Block this loser with his weak arguments. Facts are stupid".

If you can't read this post it's just as well but I wanted to respond anyway.
The point is that you are calling other posters morons, nobody around here respects that.

Nobody knows for sure if Kane is a complete ******, but a lot of evidence points towards it. Whether it is 100% fact or not doesn't matter. It makes giving up huge assets to acquire Kane a risk in many people's minds. There is a ton of great young talent comparable around the league that does not carry the same baggage as Kane. Why not look to them first?

If Kane would come at a discount because of said issues, then I would be interested. But I doubt that is the case.

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05-18-2012, 11:35 AM
  #62
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You do realize the difference between pleading guilty to a lesser charge right? In law there are strategic moves to make. For example, if the cab driver was involved in the altercation but Kane's lawyer felt that Kane's reaction may not be seen to a judge to rise to the level of a reasonable apprehension of harm it may be beneficial to plead guilt to a conditional discharge rather than risk having the judge make a finding of fact adverse to Kane in the trial. I explained in my post exactly what I meant but I guess you either a) care less about being right or wrong and just got butt hurt about being called a moron so needed to get some name-calling out or b) didn't understand my point. I'll assume the latter.
If he was found guilty of the charges the prosecutor wished to lay on him prior to the conditional discharge that would mean he could have been sentenced to jail time. Instead, the defence, prosecutor and judge felt it was appropriate to let Kane put the whole thing behind him with a very lenient conditional discharge and apology. That means that the three legal entities privy to the relevant information felt the situation did not have to rise to the level of a serious sentence.

I don't intend to say nothing happened whatsoever in the cab. I have made it clear that you have no idea the context of the situation. Patrick Kane had a massive amount to lose by allowing proceedings to go to trial. If he is found guilty and given a criminal record it could seriously affect future sponsorships and his public image. As evidenced by your reaction, many people jump to conclusions and make knee-jerk decisions labelling pro athletes as the terrible human beings who obviously will affect team make-up, moral, etc. There is no one in the Hawks dressing room past or present (that I have read) who say that Kane is a locker room cancer. You are going on the barest assumptions by saying you read the newspapers about the situation when the trial had never commenced. Further, there was no evidence Kane punched the cab driver.

Kane "allegedly" choked a girl. Some evidence sounds like Kane, etc were all joking around and no evidence comes from the girl or Pat Kane (which makes most of the evidence utter garbage. Nowhere does it say he was choking her hard, it could have been nothing more than horsing around.) Kane allegedly said something racist. None of that evidence was heard directly from anyone. Not one criminal charge has been laid (thus far) on the recent incident.

I'm arguing with you about this because it is dumb to have such a strong reaction to sparse evidence you read in newspapers and internet blogs. When I called you a moron I meant you were being one in this particular situation by making grandiose assumptions. I'm not calling you a flat out moron all the time. Keep in mind that the first matter was settled without criminal charges and the second matter hasn't had any charges laid. This is all speculative dribble that the media loves to amplify for entertainment.
Wow. Thank you for informing me on the legal system. For real. See I've been living under a rock for the past several decades and no idea what went on during a simple legal proceeding. But how arrogant are you to think that I need an explaination? All those words weren't for me. lol. Not even one.

If I were you, I would stop making assumptions. You got a hostile response because you initiated a hostile debate. We can post like gentlemen all day, but as soon as you regress into your child-like state, you'll be negatively reinforced as such. I never made any assumptions, hence I didn't comment on the choking allegations. I said he assaulted a cab driver, and a judge agreed. Don't make it complicated, or justify it with stragetic legal action, because I can assure you the tax payers and victims got what they came for: a guilty party, a sentence, and a less congensted legal system by avoiding a trial.

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05-18-2012, 11:42 AM
  #63
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The point is that you are calling other posters morons, nobody around here respects that.

Nobody knows for sure if Kane is a complete ******, but a lot of evidence points towards it. Whether it is 100% fact or not doesn't matter. It makes giving up huge assets to acquire Kane a risk in many people's minds. There is a ton of great young talent comparable around the league that does not carry the same baggage as Kane. Why not look to them first?

If Kane would come at a discount because of said issues, then I would be interested. But I doubt that is the case.
Calling someone a knee-jerk reactionary moron in response to calling Kane a punk or an idiot is justifiable. Like I said, he isn't a moron all the time. If that's the only reason for getting pissy about a post then that is dumb (sorry don't mean to use such strong langauge).

Getting back to hockey, I think if Kane is available he is one of those guys to grab right away. There were rumors floating around about drug and alcohol use by Mike Richards and LA is loving the pickup now. Watching Kane play is amazing. I saw them play the Flames this season and Kane was making it look easy out there. I think there are only a handful of guys in the league who can do that. Imagine a Tanguay-Kane-Iggy lineup (Kane plays center now as well).

It's not like Kane is some 30 year old guy getting into drunken antics. He is exactly at the age other people run amok. Sure he should keep a cleaner nose because he is famous but I don't see any overlap of his off ice antics with on ice performance.

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05-18-2012, 11:48 AM
  #64
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Calling someone a knee-jerk reactionary moron in response to calling Kane a punk or an idiot is justifiable.
No, it's not. People are entitled to their opinions of players and debate is encouraged. But people should shut the hell up and keep it to themselves in regards to how they feel about other posters.

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05-18-2012, 11:50 AM
  #65
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Wow. Thank you for informing me on the legal system. For real. See I've been living under a rock for the past several decades and no idea what went on during a simple legal proceeding. But how arrogant are you to think that I need an explaination? All those words weren't for me. lol. Not even one.

If I were you, I would stop making assumptions. You got a hostile response because you initiated a hostile debate. We can post like gentlemen all day, but as soon as you regress into your child-like state, you'll be negatively reinforced as such. I never made any assumptions, hence I didn't comment on the choking allegations. I said he assaulted a cab driver, and a judge agreed. Don't make it complicated, or justify it with stragetic legal action, because I can assure you the tax payers and victims got what they came for: a guilty party, a sentence, and a less congensted legal system by avoiding a trial.
It's not an assumption. You conflated pleading guilty to criminal charges and pleading guilt to non-criminal charges as the same thing. If you think they are equivalent then you did need an explanation.

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05-18-2012, 11:56 AM
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No, it's not. People are entitled to their opinions of players and debate is encouraged. But people should shut the hell up and keep it to themselves in regards to how they feel about other posters.
Nah I disagree. If people are going around using only ad hominens then sure, it doesn't further the point. If people are using strong langauge to call down anyone, player or not, they can't turn around and call offense to someone using similar langauge. I used the term couched in my point - that his conclusions were knee jerk reactionary.

Your rule equates to - we can call all hockey players names but no one better use those names against posters.

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05-18-2012, 12:00 PM
  #67
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@ Gnome, you got that right

Kitsy actually has the honor of being the very first to make my Ignore List, congrats to him lol. I don't have the time for posters like him that just try to come up with weak points for the sake of starting an argument.
Too bad there's no "ignore thread" feature...

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05-18-2012, 12:37 PM
  #68
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Too bad there's no "ignore thread" feature...
This one should be deleted due to what it has become. Get back on track ladies.

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05-18-2012, 12:39 PM
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Too bad there's no "ignore thread" feature...
there is....

in the section with the thread title on the right hand side there is a little 'X' just click that

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05-18-2012, 12:45 PM
  #70
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I only saw Kitsy's post because it was in a reply, and I wish I didn't feel the need to reply but I do.

The guy has no concept whatsoever about chemistry in a locker room. There has been way to much documented about Kane over the last 3 years to 'completely' dismiss all the allegations. What he doesn't understand is a very simple concept, to me it is a huge risk to bring in a player that could have such a negative impact in the locker room due to his off ice behavior. Kane has a known reputation, and while not all of it may be true or can be proved, the spot light is on him and he easily has the ability to become a distraction to a team.

I feel adamant about this argument, my brother played on the Rider's and back in 98' they went on to what Rider nation called a miracle run. They had a horrible start to the season and were far out of a playoff spot at the mid way point of the season. KD Williams back at the time was a star linebacker in the CFL and he was also a complete ass**** and abusive to his teammates. One practice he and one of his teammate missed it because they were partying so late, and then after they had to take their own flight to a game that Sunday because they missed the one with the entire team. Jim Daly finally had enough, he cut Williams and the other teammate and that shocked the entire CFL world because the Riders cut arguably their best player. Anyways, I think the Riders only lost 1 more game the remainder of the season and ended up in the Grey Cup against Argo's. My whole point to the story is, sometimes how talented an individual is or how many points he puts up does not matter, winning and putting the teams needs ahead of your own needs to be #1 in pro sports if your goal is to win a championship.

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05-18-2012, 02:10 PM
  #71
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I only saw Kitsy's post because it was in a reply, and I wish I didn't feel the need to reply but I do.

The guy has no concept whatsoever about chemistry in a locker room. There has been way to much documented about Kane over the last 3 years to 'completely' dismiss all the allegations. What he doesn't understand is a very simple concept, to me it is a huge risk to bring in a player that could have such a negative impact in the locker room due to his off ice behavior. Kane has a known reputation, and while not all of it may be true or can be proved, the spot light is on him and he easily has the ability to become a distraction to a team.

I feel adamant about this argument, my brother played on the Rider's and back in 98' they went on to what Rider nation called a miracle run. They had a horrible start to the season and were far out of a playoff spot at the mid way point of the season. KD Williams back at the time was a star linebacker in the CFL and he was also a complete ass**** and abusive to his teammates. One practice he and one of his teammate missed it because they were partying so late, and then after they had to take their own flight to a game that Sunday because they missed the one with the entire team. Jim Daly finally had enough, he cut Williams and the other teammate and that shocked the entire CFL world because the Riders cut arguably their best player. Anyways, I think the Riders only lost 1 more game the remainder of the season and ended up in the Grey Cup against Argo's. My whole point to the story is, sometimes how talented an individual is or how many points he puts up does not matter, winning and putting the teams needs ahead of your own needs to be #1 in pro sports if your goal is to win a championship.

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05-18-2012, 02:39 PM
  #72
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I only saw Kitsy's post because it was in a reply, and I wish I didn't feel the need to reply but I do.

The guy has no concept whatsoever about chemistry in a locker room. There has been way to much documented about Kane over the last 3 years to 'completely' dismiss all the allegations. What he doesn't understand is a very simple concept, to me it is a huge risk to bring in a player that could have such a negative impact in the locker room due to his off ice behavior. Kane has a known reputation, and while not all of it may be true or can be proved, the spot light is on him and he easily has the ability to become a distraction to a team.

I feel adamant about this argument, my brother played on the Rider's and back in 98' they went on to what Rider nation called a miracle run. They had a horrible start to the season and were far out of a playoff spot at the mid way point of the season. KD Williams back at the time was a star linebacker in the CFL and he was also a complete ass**** and abusive to his teammates. One practice he and one of his teammate missed it because they were partying so late, and then after they had to take their own flight to a game that Sunday because they missed the one with the entire team. Jim Daly finally had enough, he cut Williams and the other teammate and that shocked the entire CFL world because the Riders cut arguably their best player. Anyways, I think the Riders only lost 1 more game the remainder of the season and ended up in the Grey Cup against Argo's. My whole point to the story is, sometimes how talented an individual is or how many points he puts up does not matter, winning and putting the teams needs ahead of your own needs to be #1 in pro sports if your goal is to win a championship.
Remind me again how this analogy works with Kane's situation? An abusive teammate who missed practice and had to take their own flight to the game. Compared to everything Kane has done being in the off-season... Not to mention Kane won a cup with the Hawks and scored the deciding goal after having a great playoffs. I guess because I have no idea about team chemistry I just can't see the parallels between a guy with documented locker room problems and a guy who has none.

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05-18-2012, 05:50 PM
  #73
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Nah I disagree. If people are going around using only ad hominens then sure, it doesn't further the point. If people are using strong langauge to call down anyone, player or not, they can't turn around and call offense to someone using similar langauge. I used the term couched in my point - that his conclusions were knee jerk reactionary.

Your rule equates to - we can call all hockey players names but no one better use those names against posters.
Maybe to you it's knee-jerk reactionary. I would argue that by insulting my posts is, in turn, a knee-jerk reactionary post. What is knee-jerk reactionary? Immidiately reacting? I waited over two years after Kane was arrested before I pubically called him a punk. I waited until Kane pled guilty before I called him a punk.

So if anything, I'm the slowest person on the planet to react to this event, whereas you reacted to my post within a few hours, hence in a knee-jerk fashion. You damn knee-jerk!

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05-18-2012, 06:06 PM
  #74
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It's not an assumption. You conflated pleading guilty to criminal charges and pleading guilt to non-criminal charges as the same thing. If you think they are equivalent then you did need an explanation.
No I didn't. I said Kane assaulted a cab driver over 10 cents. Kane got misdemeanor assault and theft charges for it, hence I was not wrong. Then I made the blah blah blah comment, but I didn't say the charges weren't the same thing. Maybe you're guilty of conflation?

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05-18-2012, 06:37 PM
  #75
Xelstyle
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skobel24 View Post
ELEVENTIETH! EVELENTHETHE.. ELVENENETH...

11..th

Iginla.



But yeah, Pat Kane, while a very dynamic player, isn't the one I would want on the Flames. Would even rather have Semin without taking into consideration the relative costs (trade vs. FA)

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