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Who wants to buy some Handguns? (Off-Season Speculation Part III)

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Old
05-16-2012, 03:34 PM
  #151
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It would be nice to see Mush back at the tank. But didnt he take that scouting job in eastern Canada so he can be close to his family without too much travel? Guess he has that itch again. It would be nice to see him come in and do as well a job on the PK that Rob Zettler brought...
Is Zettler still in hockey?? He used to live in the area also...

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05-16-2012, 03:37 PM
  #152
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Huh? DW may not always make the right moves but at least he's always trying to fix holes and got us players like Havlat and Burns. Holland just goes "yeah well my staff drafted Lidstrom, Zetterberg and Datsyuk." and then he signs Ty Conklin, Ian White and extends Bertuzzi.
Yes, when he realizes that there's a hole. His problem has been recognizing that hole and addressing it. Everyone knew before last season even started we were missing a PMD. Didn't get addressed until the deadline. This season was the same thing. The left side of the blue line was exposed against Vancouver for lack of puck movement and it wasn't addressed at all. We were banking on puck possession skill to play quick up front since we were thin on speed players. That didn't work out and it wasn't addressed until the trade deadline even though two months in, everyone knew that that 3rd line wasn't going to work out with Handzus being useless and McGinn/Mitchell both being awful at puck possession. Speedy, sure, but not being supported very well. Both those guys can play the quick game and help the puck possession game if there's a Clowe/Wellwood/Thornton type there to handle the biscuit for them.

It has been shown time and time again that if you have a hole, waiting for the trade deadline to address it is a failure waiting to happen. DW hasn't learned that lesson yet. If you have a dramatic hole like a PMD or a lack of speed in your top six or an unreliable third line and you can't do anything until the trade deadline, you're better off keeping your assets in fixing it in the off-season especially if it's a rental. You can add an extra player at the deadline but you can't revamp an entire line.

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05-16-2012, 04:01 PM
  #153
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Is Zettler still in hockey?? He used to live in the area also...
He was canned when RW was fired by TML wasnt he?

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05-16-2012, 04:01 PM
  #154
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....

So yeah, they got their future #1 d-man and you make that trade every day of the week. But everything else ended up being a wash at best especially in terms of addressing issues like left-side puck movement and team speed. DW didn't get the total solution going into this season and wasn't even close.
I agree that DW is not perfect. I never claimed he was. But at least he tries to address the Sharks needs and succeeded to a degree. Holland tries to fix the Wings by re- signing Bertuzzi and Ericsson.

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05-16-2012, 04:07 PM
  #155
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I agree that DW is not perfect. I never claimed he was. But at least he tries to address the Sharks needs and succeeded to a degree. Holland tries to fix the Wings by re- signing Bertuzzi and Ericsson.
How is it any different with DW? There were certain issues not addressed and a pattern of this in the past. Both made moves to address certain things yet didn't address everything. Talent was an issue for both teams and the GM's inevitably take the fall for that.

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05-16-2012, 04:13 PM
  #156
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How is it any different with DW? There were certain issues not addressed and a pattern of this in the past. Both made moves to address certain things yet didn't address everything. Talent was an issue for both teams and the GM's inevitably take the fall for that.
Geez, would you rather trade for Brent Burns or sign Jonathan Ericsson? Seems very, very different to me.

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05-16-2012, 04:28 PM
  #157
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Originally Posted by TheJuxtaposer View Post
Geez, would you rather trade for Brent Burns or sign Jonathan Ericsson? Seems very, very different to me.
You're looking at a favorable one-on-one for your side of it. Look at the entirety of what each team's issues were and what they acquired to replace what they had lost. Both had issues and both made changes and both didn't address certain issues that were there. It's not a question of would you rather have one player over another. It's a question of whether or not the talent that was needed was acquired for the coach. In neither instance is that the case. Yeah, the Sharks may have made a greater stride towards that end than the Wings but it doesn't mean that DW did his job fully.

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05-16-2012, 04:36 PM
  #158
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Trade for Malkin. Easy fix.

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05-16-2012, 04:39 PM
  #159
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You're looking at a favorable one-on-one for your side of it. Look at the entirety of what each team's issues were and what they acquired to replace what they had lost. Both had issues and both made changes and both didn't address certain issues that were there. It's not a question of would you rather have one player over another. It's a question of whether or not the talent that was needed was acquired for the coach. In neither instance is that the case. Yeah, the Sharks may have made a greater stride towards that end than the Wings but it doesn't mean that DW did his job fully.
Would you rather re-sign Todd Bertuzzi or trade Dany Heatley for Marty Havlat? DW didn't fill all the holes, but he filled a couple of major ones. Holland didn't fill a single need for the Wings. The Sharks have a semblance of youth, at least. The Wings have nothing. Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Franzen, Bertuzzi, Holmstrom, Cleary, Lidstrom, and Kronwall are all on the wrong side of 30, and many of them on the wrong side of 35. What's worse is that they can't make any trades or build through the draft, because they can't trade Datsyuk (franchise player/career Wing), Zetterberg (other franchise player/career Wing), or Kronwall (just resigned to a monster contract, I doubt they can move Franzen (unmotivated and huge contract), Lidstrom and Holmstrom might retire, Stuart is probably leaving, and Cleary and Bertuzzi suck. On top of that, they traded away the highest first round pick they've had in years for Kyle frickin' Quincey.

They have Ian White, Brendan Smith, Jonathan Ericsson, Kyle Quincey, Jakub Kindl, Justin Abdelkader, Darren Helm, and a few above average forward prospects as the future. They don't have a Couture or a Vlasic or a Burns or a Pavelski.

Of course, they did win a Cup recently so it can't be all bad in Wings land, but I don't think that team is trending anywhere close to up. Whereas we have the pieces that can either aid us in a speedy re-build or re-tool.

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05-16-2012, 04:51 PM
  #160
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Originally Posted by TheJuxtaposer View Post
Would you rather re-sign Todd Bertuzzi or trade Dany Heatley for Marty Havlat? DW didn't fill all the holes, but he filled a couple of major ones. Holland didn't fill a single need for the Wings. The Sharks have a semblance of youth, at least. The Wings have nothing. Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Franzen, Bertuzzi, Holmstrom, Cleary, Lidstrom, and Kronwall are all on the wrong side of 30, and many of them on the wrong side of 35. What's worse is that they can't make any trades or build through the draft, because they can't trade Datsyuk (franchise player/career Wing), Zetterberg (other franchise player/career Wing), or Kronwall (just resigned to a monster contract, I doubt they can move Franzen (unmotivated and huge contract), Lidstrom and Holmstrom might retire, Stuart is probably leaving, and Cleary and Bertuzzi suck. On top of that, they traded away the highest first round pick they've had in years for Kyle frickin' Quincey.

They have Ian White, Brendan Smith, Jonathan Ericsson, Kyle Quincey, Jakub Kindl, Justin Abdelkader, Darren Helm, and a few above average forward prospects as the future. They don't have a Couture or a Vlasic or a Burns or a Pavelski.

Of course, they did win a Cup recently so it can't be all bad in Wings land, but I don't think that team is trending anywhere close to up. Whereas we have the pieces that can either aid us in a speedy re-build or re-tool.
This is all nice and dandy but the point was that the GM let down the coach here like they did in Detroit. Just because Wilson will arguably have less work to do doesn't make that end point any less true. This team did not have the talent to win it all and had holes since day one. Detroit will only have more holes to fill because of older players retiring. They may have more work but they still finished ahead of us comfortably.

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Old
05-16-2012, 04:51 PM
  #161
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Originally Posted by TheJuxtaposer View Post
Babcock has been let down by his GM, not his players, IMHO.
Babcock has publicly stated that Holland needs to bring in bigger more "canadian" type players and Holland has responded by drafting and signing more europeans like Tatar, Jurco, Leino etc. The players are letting Babcock down in that they aren't suited to playing the style he wants to play. Of course that sounds a lot like our complaint with Tmac and his inability to use the assets of the players given to him.... Hmmm.... A coach and GM need to be on the same page when it comes to building a team and implementing a system that fits the talent and skills of the players on that team. I don't think Tmac and DW are on the same page, and I think that DW learned that in the exit interviews with the players.

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05-16-2012, 05:32 PM
  #162
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Originally Posted by Lebanezer View Post
Babcock has publicly stated that Holland needs to bring in bigger more "canadian" type players and Holland has responded by drafting and signing more europeans like Tatar, Jurco, Leino etc. The players are letting Babcock down in that they aren't suited to playing the style he wants to play. Of course that sounds a lot like our complaint with Tmac and his inability to use the assets of the players given to him.... Hmmm.... A coach and GM need to be on the same page when it comes to building a team and implementing a system that fits the talent and skills of the players on that team. I don't think Tmac and DW are on the same page, and I think that DW learned that in the exit interviews with the players.
obvious answer. trade coaches

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Old
05-16-2012, 06:25 PM
  #163
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CAPGEEK.COM CAP CALCULATOR ROSTER
My Custom Lineup
FORWARDS
Logan Couture ($2.875m) / Joe Thornton ($7.000m) / Rick Nash ($7.800m)
Ryane Clowe ($3.625m) / Patrick Marleau ($6.900m) / Martin Havlat ($5.000m)
Daniel Winnik ($1.950m) / Chris Kelly ($3.000m) / Cam Atkinson ($0.875m)
T.J. Galiardi ($0.935m) / Andrew Desjardins ($0.700m) / Tommy Wingels ($0.660m)
DEFENSEMEN
Marc-Edouard Vlasic ($3.100m) / Dan Boyle ($6.667m)
Jason Demers ($1.250m) / Brent Burns ($5.760m)
Brett Clark ($1.500m) / Justin Braun ($0.900m)
GOALTENDERS
Thomas Greiss ($0.588m)
Alex Stalock ($0.688m)
------
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(these totals are compiled without the bonus cushion)
SALARY CAP: $64,300,000; CAP PAYROLL: $61,771,667; BONUSES: $37,500
CAP SPACE (20-man roster): $2,528,333







CAPGEEK.COM CAP CALCULATOR ROSTER
My Custom Lineup
FORWARDS
Logan Couture ($2.875m) / Joe Thornton ($7.000m) / Devin Setoguchi ($3.000m)
Ryane Clowe ($3.625m) / Patrick Marleau ($6.900m) / Milan Michalek ($4.333m)
Jamie McGinn ($2.000m) / Joe Pavelski ($4.000m) / Charlie Coyle ($0.975m)
Brad Winchester ($0.725m) / Andrew Desjardins ($0.700m) / Tommy Wingels ($0.660m)
DEFENSEMEN
Marc-Edouard Vlasic ($3.100m) / Dan Boyle ($6.667m)
Christian Ehrhoff ($4.000m) / Jason Demers ($1.250m)
Brett Clark ($1.500m) / Justin Braun ($0.900m)
GOALTENDERS
Antti Niemi ($3.800m)
Thomas Greiss ($0.588m)
------
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(these totals are compiled without the bonus cushion)
SALARY CAP: $64,300,000; CAP PAYROLL: $58,597,500; BONUSES: $75,000
CAP SPACE (20-man roster): $5,702,500


Last edited by Man in the Mirror: 05-16-2012 at 06:48 PM.
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Old
05-16-2012, 06:47 PM
  #164
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Worse.

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05-16-2012, 06:51 PM
  #165
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Anyone else think we'd be a better team if DW stopped making trades after we got Boyle?

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05-16-2012, 07:39 PM
  #166
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Anyone else think we'd be a better team if DW stopped making trades after we got Boyle?
Marleau-Thornton-Setoguchi
Michalek-Pavelski-Clowe
McGinn-Couture-Wingels
Wincester-Desjardins-Mitchell

Vlasic-Boyle
Ehrhoff-Murray
Braun-Demers


Debatable (assuming we were able to keep Ehrhoff, which I don't think we would have).


Last edited by TheJuxtaposer: 05-16-2012 at 08:36 PM. Reason: no Ian White
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Old
05-16-2012, 07:50 PM
  #167
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Originally Posted by TheJuxtaposer View Post
Marleau-Thornton-Setoguchi
Michalek-Pavelski-Clowe
McGinn-Couture-Wingels
Wincester-Desjardins-Mitchell

Vlasic-Boyle
Ehrhoff-I. White
Braun-Demers
Murray

Debatable (assuming we were able to keep Ehrhoff, which I don't think we would have).
i'd still prefer burns over ehrhoff, and no seto.

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05-16-2012, 08:33 PM
  #168
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Originally Posted by TheJuxtaposer View Post
Marleau-Thornton-Setoguchi
Michalek-Pavelski-Clowe
McGinn-Couture-Wingels
Wincester-Desjardins-Mitchell

Vlasic-Boyle
Ehrhoff-I. White
Braun-Demers
Murray

Debatable (assuming we were able to keep Ehrhoff, which I don't think we would have).
If DW stopped making trades after acquiring Boyle, we wouldn't have Ian White.

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05-16-2012, 08:35 PM
  #169
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If DW stopped making trades after acquiring Boyle, we wouldn't have Ian White.
Right. My bad.

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05-16-2012, 09:17 PM
  #170
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New poster here.

The Sharks are very deep at the center position. We lack a a natural right handed sniper. I think it would be a good idea to trade Couture for one. Before you call me crazy, Joe Thornton is our #1 center now and for the next 5 years. Joe Pavelski is our #2 center for the next 5+ years. Patty Marleau is very streaky. Joe loves right handers.

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05-16-2012, 09:20 PM
  #171
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We lack a a natural right handed sniper.
I meant natural RW right handed sniper.

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05-16-2012, 09:20 PM
  #172
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New poster here.

The Sharks are very deep at the center position. We lack a a natural right handed sniper. I think it would be a good idea to trade Couture for one. Before you call me crazy, Joe Thornton is our #1 center now and for the next 5 years. Joe Pavelski is our #2 center for the next 5+ years. Patty Marleau is very streaky. Joe loves right handers.
You are trading a proven young commodity for the chance that Joe Thornton might have chemistry with a new player and that that player will produce more than Couture. That is way, way, way too big a gamble. The odds of you finding a player that is more talented than Couture, at his price, are slim to none.

Joe Thornton is only signed for 2 years, then needs a new contract. Couture is still an RFA after this contract ends. If you trade any of our centers, its JT or Pavs, Couture shouldn't even be discussed.

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05-16-2012, 09:28 PM
  #173
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I still think our problem is our top 4 defensive men. The Sharks have never had a true top 4 capable of winning the cup. We've had 3 (and currently do at the moment) but never 4 really solid guys. Need to pick up another solid D man that can play 20+ minutes imho.

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05-16-2012, 09:29 PM
  #174
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You are trading a proven young commodity for the chance that Joe Thornton might have chemistry with a new player and that that player will produce more than Couture. That is way, way, way too big a gamble. The odds of you finding a player that is more talented than Couture, at his price, are slim to none.

Joe Thornton is only signed for 2 years, then needs a new contract. Couture is still an RFA after this contract ends. If you trade any of our centers, its JT or Pavs, Couture shouldn't even be discussed.
You trade him for a guy like Bobby Ryan. The Ducks need a #2 center. Couture is more than capable and provides a fall back option in case Getzlaf leaves. We get a proven scorer. We may need to add a little.

One thing that concerns me about Couture is injuries. He takes a beating during games. He isn't the biggest guy. Ryan is a big guy who can dish out big hits.

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05-16-2012, 09:31 PM
  #175
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I still think our problem is our top 4 defensive men. The Sharks have never had a true top 4 capable of winning the cup. We've had 3 (and currently do at the moment) but never 4 really solid guys. Need to pick up another solid D man that can play 20+ minutes imho.
Brad Stuart? Jason Garrison? Matt Carle? Ryan Suter?


Last edited by Hatrick Marleau: 05-16-2012 at 09:34 PM. Reason: Forgot to add something.
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