You trade him for a guy like Bobby Ryan. The Ducks need a #2 center. Couture is more than capable and provides a fall back option in case Getzlaf leaves. We get a proven scorer. We may need to add a little.
One thing that concerns me about Couture is injuries. He takes a beating during games. He isn't the biggest guy. Ryan is a big guy who can dish out big hits.
You just effectively explained why the Ducks will not trade Bobby Ryan for Logan Couture.
You just effectively explained why the Ducks will not trade Bobby Ryan for Logan Couture.
Also does not account for Couture's value based on his contract status. I'd love to have Bobby Ryan, but not as the price of Couture. I would consider sending Pavelski for Ryan though, that's a much better trade than Pavelski for Nash.
Either way, it won't happen, Anaheim isn't going to trade Ryan, if they did it wouldn't be to us.
anyone else thinking the new CBA could impact which teams have the best make-up?
last time there was a new CBA it did away with a lot of the "clutch & grab" style of hockey with some rule changes. Those stayed pretty consistent for the first 4-5 years of the CBA. Then slowly it gravitated back towards "clutch & grab," especially as play-offs drew near.
How can a GM expect to build a team then the rules of the game change from year to year as well as game to game?
I'm not making excuses; I'm pointing out that there will be a new CBA next year, DW will be building a team not knowing what sort of changes will come about in the meantime. I think the winner of the cup of the first year of the new CBA will be riding on luck, they happen to have the correct balance of what is needed to play under the new CBA. Then all the other teams will try to adapt to the style of game that is the "new" NHL. whatever that might be. With all the parity in the league small changes to the rules can cause larger than expected ripples.
We can discuss and debate all the roster changes in the world, but if no one knows how the game will change and be officiated after the new CBA takes effect then everyone is pretty much just pissing in the wind. I think this situation really doesn't bode well for drafting and developing talent. I'd like to see this upcoming new CBA be signed for 10 years.
You just effectively explained why the Ducks will not trade Bobby Ryan for Logan Couture.
We would trade a 30 goal scoring two way foward for a 30 goal scoring right wing power foward. Centers are more valuable than wingers. Like I said we may need to add. I would rather trade Couture to some team out of the division.
Also does not account for Couture's value based on his contract status. I'd love to have Bobby Ryan, but not as the price of Couture. I would consider sending Pavelski for Ryan though, that's a much better trade than Pavelski for Nash.
Either way, it won't happen, Anaheim isn't going to trade Ryan, if they did it wouldn't be to us.
anyone else thinking the new CBA could impact which teams have the best make-up?
last time there was a new CBA it did away with a lot of the "clutch & grab" style of hockey with some rule changes. Those stayed pretty consistent for the first 4-5 years of the CBA. Then slowly it gravitated back towards "clutch & grab," especially as play-offs drew near.
How can a GM expect to build a team then the rules of the game change from year to year as well as game to game?
I'm not making excuses; I'm pointing out that there will be a new CBA next year, DW will be building a team not knowing what sort of changes will come about in the meantime. I think the winner of the cup of the first year of the new CBA will be riding on luck, they happen to have the correct balance of what is needed to play under the new CBA. Then all the other teams will try to adapt to the style of game that is the "new" NHL. whatever that might be. With all the parity in the league small changes to the rules can cause larger than expected ripples.
We can discuss and debate all the roster changes in the world, but if no one knows how the game will change and be officiated after the new CBA takes effect then everyone is pretty much just pissing in the wind. I think this situation really doesn't bode well for drafting and developing talent. I'd like to see this upcoming new CBA be signed for 10 years.
Clutch and grab or no, they changed the zone sizes which gives more advantage to speed over size. The CBA and rule changes were simultaneous but they did not have to be. There has been no recent call for an overhaul of the rules. I imagine that if scoring drops that there will be a cry for more rule changes. The scoring drop has to do with attendance, revenues, etc. The revenues are what will drive the issue not the CBA. I don't think major changes will happen in this next off-season, but I can see it in a year or two longer if they continue down their current path (about another 10% drop in scoring).
The Sharks are very deep at the center position. We lack a a natural right handed sniper. I think it would be a good idea to trade Couture for one. Before you call me crazy, Joe Thornton is our #1 center now and for the next 5 years. Joe Pavelski is our #2 center for the next 5+ years. Patty Marleau is very streaky. Joe loves right handers.
The Sharks have a righty sniper, Pavelski. They tried it again this year, didn't really work. In going back over sniper movement, it is almost unheard of for a sniper to change the fortunes of a team for the better. Go back over the major trades of recent years and find an acquired sniper who signicantly improved team results for the acquiring team. Teams who center franchises around feature snipers especially have poor results (Columbus, Atlanta, etc.).
Lastly, JT is already mildly falling off in play. He won't be near this level in five years. Same for Patty. I am really tired of the argument that JT is indestructible. Same was applied to Sundin by Toronto fans much to their regret. It is a trickle effect, it is not like plunging off a cliff.
The Sharks have a righty sniper, Pavelski.They tried it again this year, didn't really work. In going back over sniper movement, it is almost unheard of for a sniper to change the fortunes of a team for the better. Go back over the major trades of recent years and find an acquired sniper who signicantly improved team results for the acquiring team. Teams who center franchises around feature snipers especially have poor results (Columbus, Atlanta, etc.).
Lastly, JT is already mildly falling off in play. He won't be near this level in five years. Same for Patty. I am really tired of the argument that JT is indestructible. Same was applied to Sundin by Toronto fans much to their regret. It is a trickle effect, it is not like plunging off a cliff.
I wouldn't call Pavelski a sniper. Snipers have good speed, good hands, and a great shot. Pavelski has a great shot, decent hands, and is slow.
Sundin and Jumbo aren't the same. They have different styles of play. When Joe is 36, is he not going to be a great passer? Is he not going to have great vision. A players skill may decrease a little as they get older but most of the time it is their athleticism that becomes worse as they get older.
Edit: Joe will get older. His skill may decrease. He will be slower but it isn't like he uses his speed anyway.
Last edited by Hatrick Marleau: 05-16-2012 at 10:27 PM.
Reason: Change
I wouldn't call Pavelski a sniper. Snipers have good speed, good hands, and a great shot. Pavelski has a great shot, decent hands, and is slow.
Sundin and Jumbo aren't the same. They have different styles of play. When Joe is 36, is he not going to be a good passer? Is he not going to have great vision. A players skill may decrease a little as they get older but most of the time it is their athleticism that becomes worse as they get older.
Cheechoo was absolutely a sniper, and he was slow as they get. Snipers have a great shot, that's it. Heatley, slow, terrible hands, great shot.
What you are describing is not a sniper, its a dynamic multi-faceted forward, which is great, but they are nearly impossible to come by. Pavelski is pretty damn close (great hands, great shot).
The Sharks have a righty sniper, Pavelski. They tried it again this year, didn't really work. In going back over sniper movement, it is almost unheard of for a sniper to change the fortunes of a team for the better. Go back over the major trades of recent years and find an acquired sniper who signicantly improved team results for the acquiring team. Teams who center franchises around feature snipers especially have poor results (Columbus, Atlanta, etc.).
Lastly, JT is already mildly falling off in play. He won't be near this level in five years. Same for Patty. I am really tired of the argument that JT is indestructible. Same was applied to Sundin by Toronto fans much to their regret. It is a trickle effect, it is not like plunging off a cliff.
his play must of fell off really slowly considering sundins final years in toronto he finished with 78 in 74, 76 in 75, 78 in 70.
considering those point totals were right around his career average (actually better in most seasons due to point per game average).
people remember sundins half a season with the canucks and think he stunk for years before that, when the truth is he was still a pretty dominate (for his age) player.
and i'm sorry but pavelski is the farthest thing there is to a sniper. but i forgot once you hit that 30 goal mark once in your career, it makes you a sniper.
his play must of fell off really slowly considering sundins final years in toronto he finished with 78 in 74, 76 in 75, 78 in 70.
considering those point totals were right around his career average (actually better in most seasons due to point per game average).
people remember sundins half a season with the canucks and think he stunk for years before that, when the truth is he was still a pretty dominate (for his age) player.
and i'm sorry but pavelski is the farthest thing there is to a sniper. but i forgot once you hit that 30 goal mark once in your career, it makes you a sniper.
This was his first year where it was purely Pavelski's role. He did fairly well.
Sundin fell off slowly. It isn't all in the points, it is in the minutes and team results. As he aged, he was treated more like a Sedin than like an all around center. Towards the end in Toronto, he only saw the d-zone to take advantage of his faceoff ability.
For HM, moving the feet has everything to do with it both for Sundin and JT. The feet have a lot to do with the team results. If you listened to TM, he was already reminding JT this year to move his feet.
One guy we might be able to buy low on is Kyle Okposo. The deal would be Braun/Demers + Murray for Okposo + 2012 2nd/3rd.
I fail to see how Okposo has any sort of deflated value. And that deal is horrible. Murray would get a third from the Island, and Okposo is much more valuable than Demers or Braun.
I certainly hope DW was asking about KO when he was slumping hard in December, but that time has long passed. He's be great on this team, but the Islanders are not going to give him away.
Cheechoo was absolutely a sniper, and he was slow as they get. Snipers have a great shot, that's it. Heatley, slow, terrible hands, great shot.
What you are describing is not a sniper, its a dynamic multi-faceted forward, which is great, but they are nearly impossible to come by. Pavelski is pretty damn close (great hands, great shot).
Yes, what I was describing was an elite sniper. Too me Pavelski is a good two way center. He has a great shot. Snipers have to score more than 25 goals a season. Heatley's best years were when he was 25-28yrs old. At that age he had enough speed to get room for his shot. Cheechoo was a sniper but he lost too much speed after having lower body surgeries. That is why he is out of the NHL. If he was a good all around player he would be in the NHL. Since Pavelski is a well rounded player, he will be playing for a while.
Evander Kane
Jordan Eberle
Devin Setoguchi
Michael Grabner
They are all players that meet my criteria of a sniper
I fail to see how Okposo has any sort of deflated value. And that deal is horrible. Murray would get a third from the Island, and Okposo is much more valuable than Demers or Braun.
I certainly hope DW was asking about KO when he was slumping hard in December, but that time has long passed. He's be great on this team, but the Islanders are not going to give him away.
Yes, what I was describing was an elite sniper. Too me Pavelski is a good two way center. He has a great shot. Snipers have to score more than 25 goals a season. Heatley's best years were when he was 25-28yrs old. At that age he had enough speed to get room for his shot. Cheechoo was a sniper but he lost too much speed after having lower body surgeries. That is why he is out of the NHL. If he was a good all around player he would be in the NHL. Since Pavelski is a well rounded player, he will be playing for a while.
Evander Kane
Jordan Eberle
Devin Setoguchi
Michael Grabner
They are all players that meet my criteria of a sniper
Just no on Grabner. More like Mitchell with hands and more speed.
Another example of a guy with no skating or other positive attributes who has cut a career as sniper is Ryder and of course there were both Brett Hull and Luc Robitaille.
Yes, what I was describing was an elite sniper. Too me Pavelski is a good two way center. He has a great shot. Snipers have to score more than 25 goals a season. Heatley's best years were when he was 25-28yrs old. At that age he had enough speed to get room for his shot. Cheechoo was a sniper but he lost too much speed after having lower body surgeries. That is why he is out of the NHL. If he was a good all around player he would be in the NHL. Since Pavelski is a well rounded player, he will be playing for a while.
Evander Kane
Jordan Eberle
Devin Setoguchi
Michael Grabner
They are all players that meet my criteria of a sniper
To get Kane, you give up Couture+. And Winnipeg probably still wouldn't do it.
To get Eberle, you give Couture+. And Edmonton probably still wouldn't do it. Eberle's not a sniper either.
Seto isn't coming back in a trade.
Grabner is attainable, but he's hardly a sniper. I doubt he reaches his rookie production again.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hatrick Marleau
Injuries and inconsistency.
Braun and Murray to NYI for Okposo and a 4th.
You could also say that Couture has injuries and inconsistency. Couture for Eaton and MacDonald?
The Islanders won't give up Okposo unless someone like Vlasic comes back. And that's only if they think Vlasic will re-sign. Okposo is a fantastic young player on a fantastic contract and I think he'll be a consistent 25-30 goal-scoring powerforward. You don't give up that kind of player without a stud coming back.
To get Kane, you give up Couture+. And Winnipeg probably still wouldn't do it.
To get Eberle, you give Couture+. And Edmonton probably still wouldn't do it. Eberle's not a sniper either.
Seto isn't coming back in a trade.
Grabner is attainable, but he's hardly a sniper. I doubt he reaches his rookie production again.
You could also say that Couture has injuries and inconsistency. Couture for Eaton and MacDonald?
The Islanders won't give up Okposo unless someone like Vlasic comes back. And that's only if they think Vlasic will re-sign. Okposo is a fantastic young player on a fantastic contract and I think he'll be a consistent 25-30 goal-scoring powerforward. You don't give up that kind of player without a stud coming back.
I didn't say Couture was inconsistent. I said I would be worried about injuries with Couture in the future.
