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Tangradi's next contract

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Old
05-24-2012, 02:43 PM
  #251
MrBurgundy
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Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
I meant it could take awhile when he is actually playing in the NHL. This isn't patience, it is stubbornness on DB part.

At this point all DB has done is stunt his development. Now we have to go through this once again next season.

I'm just tired of pointing out examples of other teams making room for their rookies, while DB and the Shero to an extent having this odd vet man love that isn't even paying off for them...

There could be half a dozen rookies who push for NHL ice time next season, so we'll see if this org and DB specifically has learned anything from his rivals and the Bruins, Kings, etc.

Imagine if Despres was treated like Voynov next season and he progresses like we hope...do you think DB and Shero have the guts to move one of their top four to make room for him at the deadline?

I don't....
I hope they move one of their top 4 this offseason...

I'd rather let Despres take over Martin's spot, trade Lovejoy and Niskanen, and have Strait, Bortuzzo or Engelland rotate in and out of the lineup depending on who is playing better. That will never happen though because nobody will have 3 rookies on their blueline to start the year. At the very least keep Niskanen for a 2 year deal or so, and let Despres play in WBS while getting Bortuzzo and Strait on the NHL roster.

Orpik - Letang
Niskanen - Michalek
Strait - Bortuzzo
Engelland

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05-24-2012, 02:49 PM
  #252
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I actually want to re-sign Niskanen and Dump Orpik and Martin, but I am with you.

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05-24-2012, 02:50 PM
  #253
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This isn't really directed towards you, in particular... but I'm curious as to why so many people seem eager to trade Niskanen. He was probably the Penguins steadiest presence on the blueline all season... at least in his own end. Is it just because everyone figures he'll want too much?

I realize one standout season that followed up an extremely underwhelming post-trade stint is a very small sample size... but he definitely looked like a guy who was rounding nicely into form. I'd just as soon hold onto him if the price is even close to reasonable.


Last edited by BlindWillyMcHurt: 05-24-2012 at 02:56 PM.
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05-24-2012, 02:54 PM
  #254
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Originally Posted by BlindWillyMcHurt View Post
This isn't really directed towards you, in particular... but I'm curious as to why so many people seem eager to trade Niskanen. He was probably the Penguins steadiest presence on the blueline all season... at least in his own end. Is it just because everyone figures he'll want too much?

I realize one standout season that followed up an extremely underwhelming post-trade stint is a very small sample size... but he definitely looked like a guy who was rounding nicely into form. I'd just as soon hold onto him if the price is even close to reasonable.
I don't want him traded but I think it will be a Scuderi/Malone situation to a lesser extent. We want him back but in reality the numbers don't add up. I know "Why don't we just dump Martin". Problem with that is it isn't as easy as it sounds.

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05-24-2012, 02:56 PM
  #255
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Originally Posted by froods View Post
I actually want to re-sign Niskanen and Dump Orpik and Martin, but I am with you.
I agree, actually. Orpik gets a lot of free passes in Penguins-land. I understand his injuries have limited him somewhat... but I also feel he's simply on the downward spiral, at this point. I also often think his supposed "vocal leadership" causes more divides than it does create solidarity and resolve amongst his teammates. One way or the other... he looked extremely bad almost all last season.

If Michalek truly wants out... there is yet another piece that might have to be moved for the best interests of the team. I'd rather see what he can do for at least another season, though.

If I'm being honest... I doubt Shero even ends up trading Martin, though. Much less those other guys. Excuses will be found. Shero is often patient (and loyal) to a fault.

Quote:
Originally Posted by eXile59 View Post
I don't want him traded but I think it will be a Scuderi/Malone situation to a lesser extent. We want him back but in reality the numbers don't add up. I know "Why don't we just dump Martin". Problem with that is it isn't as easy as it sounds.
I could see that. I hope it's not the case... but I could see it. And I'm completely with you regarding difficulty moving Martin. I know the company line is that he's still a "solid" defenseman and that there are "plenty" of teams out there that would love to have him. But I just don't know. Trades are often tricky enough under ideal circumstances... and Martin looked every bit like an absolute joke of a defenseman all last season.

I mean... what is Shero supposed to tell other GMs? "Don't worry... he's fine... my coach is just a doofus." Yeah... that'd fly.

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05-24-2012, 03:02 PM
  #256
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Originally Posted by froods View Post
I actually want to re-sign Niskanen and Dump Orpik and Martin, but I am with you.
Yeah, it's not that I dislike Niskanen, it's just that I don't know if I want to pay him the money he might command. If the price is reasonable then I'm fine with it. At the very least Martin and Lovejoy need to go in favor of Strait and Bortuzzo. Let the positioning shake itself out in training camp.

If things shape out right, we may have a big infusion of young players next season. Tangradi on the 4th line, Jeffrey maybe centering the 3rd line, Bortuzzo and Strait battling for the #6 spot, and maybe throw Despres in there somewhere as well. It's not like these kids aren't experienced at the pro level either. They've all spent a considerable amount of time in the AHL (save for Despres) and some have seen stints in the NHL. They are ready to make the jump.

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05-24-2012, 03:02 PM
  #257
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Originally Posted by BlindWillyMcHurt View Post
I agree, actually. Orpik gets a lot of free passes in Penguins-land. I understand his injuries have limited him somewhat... but I also feel he's simply on the downward spiral, at this point. I also often think his supposed "vocal leadership" causes more divides than it does create solidarity and resolve amongst his teammates. One way or the other... he looked extremely bad almost all last season.

If Michalek truly wants out... there is yet another piece that might have to be moved for the best interests of the team. I'd rather see what he can do for at least another season, though.

If I'm being honest... I doubt Shero even ends up trading Martin, though. Much less those other guys. Excuses will be found. Shero is often patient (and loyal) to a fault.
Josh Yohe tweeted yesterday that the Z thing was 100% untrue

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05-24-2012, 03:08 PM
  #258
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Well good. I still really feel that a healthy and happy Michalek working within an effective system has a lot to give.

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05-24-2012, 03:08 PM
  #259
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Originally Posted by MrBurgundy View Post
I hope they move one of their top 4 this offseason...

I'd rather let Despres take over Martin's spot, trade Lovejoy and Niskanen, and have Strait, Bortuzzo or Engelland rotate in and out of the lineup depending on who is playing better. That will never happen though because nobody will have 3 rookies on their blueline to start the year. At the very least keep Niskanen for a 2 year deal or so, and let Despres play in WBS while getting Bortuzzo and Strait on the NHL roster.

Orpik - Letang
Niskanen - Michalek
Strait - Bortuzzo
Engelland
I am just assuming Martin stays and the top four remains the same.

I don't have an issue with Despres in WBS if it means Bort and Strait get their NHL minutes. At the very least it should raise their trade stock.

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05-24-2012, 03:19 PM
  #260
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Also... I didn't mean to derail the thread.

To be honest, as far as Tangradi goes... I more or less completely agree with Jiggy. I'm not quite as high as he is on how the kid might top out. But I couldn't agree more on what I feel had been almost complete mismanagement of his development up to this point.

Nobody expects Disco to simply hand the guy anything without earning it. But at some point you have to see what you have in a young player... particularly while they still have waiver options. Nobody really knows that because it was evidently never a priority (same goes with Bort and Strait... to a degree) despite opportunities to do so. That's bad asset management.

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05-24-2012, 04:12 PM
  #261
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Originally Posted by BlindWillyMcHurt View Post
Also... I didn't mean to derail the thread.

To be honest, as far as Tangradi goes... I more or less completely agree with Jiggy. I'm not quite as high as he is on how the kid might top out. But I couldn't agree more on what I feel had been almost complete mismanagement of his development up to this point.

Nobody expects Disco to simply hand the guy anything without earning it. But at some point you have to see what you have in a young player... particularly while they still have waiver options. Nobody really knows that because it was evidently never a priority (same goes with Bort and Strait... to a degree) despite opportunities to do so. That's bad asset management.
Yep - agreed. The big tell was last year during the playoffs when Bylsma put AHL-lifer Chris Conner in the lineup over Tangradi.

If that wasn't a perfect time to insert a young player into a lineup so that he could get crucial experience, then I don't know.....

We were completely starved for offense and a physical presence, but Bylsma goes back to under-sized impending UFA Chris Conner. Makes a lot of sense...

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05-24-2012, 04:46 PM
  #262
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Richard Park is a center. We desperately needed centers for a good chunk of this season. Good pick-up. Shero put together a perfectly good roster to still give Tangradi plenty of opportunities to get on the NHL roster. When those opportunities presented themselves they were wasted.

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05-24-2012, 04:54 PM
  #263
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Richard Park is a center. We desperately needed centers for a good chunk of this season. Good pick-up. Shero put together a perfectly good roster to still give Tangradi plenty of opportunities to get on the NHL roster. When those opportunities presented themselves they were wasted.
Having Park was useful when injuries hit again.

Our problem with how Tangradi has been used lies with DB's philosophy. You have to trust your younger players at some point.

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05-24-2012, 05:29 PM
  #264
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What did you want him to do then???? You are destroying Bylsma for not giving him a shot. Should he have taking Neal or Kunitz off that line? Should he have put him on IR with Staal or Sid? What do you want from the man? Holy crap.
lol, hyperbole at it's finest!

"My 'argument' has been blown to **** by every other poster so I'll go to extremes to try and save face."

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05-24-2012, 05:44 PM
  #265
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lol, hyperbole at it's finest!

"My 'argument' has been blown to **** by every other poster so I'll go to extremes to try and save face."
Actually the rest of us have found common ground. I still am confused on what you would expect DB to do in that situation? You couldn't break up 14-71-18. Who else could he put him with? Your answer there is a cop out.

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05-24-2012, 06:03 PM
  #266
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Actually the rest of us have found common ground. I still am confused on what you would expect DB to do in that situation? You couldn't break up 14-71-18. Who else could he put him with? Your answer there is a cop out.
Maybe move Sully off of Sid's line? Use him as a PP specialist b/c he sure as hell wasn't doing much at ES. Tangradi was exactly what Sid could have used against Philly. A big body for Philly D-men to deal with and someone who can hold onto a puck for more than a second and maybe make a play. Sid wasn't himself, but he sure as hell wasn't getting alotta help from Duper and Sully.

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05-24-2012, 06:54 PM
  #267
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Actually the rest of us have found common ground. I still am confused on what you would expect DB to do in that situation? You couldn't break up 14-71-18. Who else could he put him with? Your answer there is a cop out.
I'm not arguing what DB should have done with both Sid and Staal out, I'm arguing you're time sopent with Park/DJ/ and Duper aren't top 9 opportunities, which "prove" that ET got a legit shot, because that's been your argument since posting his "top 9" shifts.

There were many chances for DB to put him with Staal or Malkin during the season, especially considering that 14-71-18 wasn't a line for the first half of the season. Then when Sid came back there were an abundance of opportunities to play ET w/ one of the top 3, which didn't happen.

ET wasn't given a fair shot and you're "list" proves that.

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05-24-2012, 07:39 PM
  #268
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This is an aside, but since there was some mentioning of looking at linemates and occurances, there is another way to do it besides frood's method (and I think much better).

Go to NHL.com and find the ID number for the game in question then go to timeonice.com and input the ID number into the field. The website will pull the time on ice data and display it graphically as bars. The bars are dragable and can be manipulated so you can group the players you are focused on. It is a very good way to see the line matching and see how players are used.

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05-24-2012, 09:29 PM
  #269
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Originally Posted by Ragamuffin Gunner View Post
I'm not arguing what DB should have done with both Sid and Staal out, I'm arguing you're time sopent with Park/DJ/ and Duper aren't top 9 opportunities, which "prove" that ET got a legit shot, because that's been your argument since posting his "top 9" shifts.

There were many chances for DB to put him with Staal or Malkin during the season, especially considering that 14-71-18 wasn't a line for the first half of the season. Then when Sid came back there were an abundance of opportunities to play ET w/ one of the top 3, which didn't happen.

ET wasn't given a fair shot and you're "list" proves that.
what was he supposed to do Ragamuffin???? Those were the 2nd and 3rd line centers. Seriously dude.

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05-24-2012, 10:26 PM
  #270
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what was he supposed to do Ragamuffin???? Those were the 2nd and 3rd line centers. Seriously dude.
You know, froods, I don't know if Tangradi ever will amount to anything beyond a third/fourth line tweener in the NHL. Maybe he will, maybe he won't. BUT, it would have been nice to find out, because the Pens sure as **** could have used the type of player Tangradi projects to be in the top nine in the playoffs. The Pens sure as **** could have used the type of net front player Tangradi is on the PP, period.

But, you never find that out if you're not willing to try, if you don't have the patience as a coach to let that young player make mistakes, learn from them, and grow.

Three years ago, at the camp after the cup win, Tangradi earned a spot to start the year with the big club. BUT, too many one way contracts.

Two years ago, as a 18 year old, Simon Despres was one of the Pens top six defensemen. At the very least, he earned a 10 game sniff. BUT, too many one way deals with Lovejoy and Engo sitting there.

This year, Joe Morrow earned a spot, and it wasn't even close in terms of his deserving a 10 game sniff, not when you consider that Orpik started the season on IR. Again, Ben Lovejoy . . .

I think when a lot of people question Bylsma's handling of Tangradi (and frankly any other young player with upside beyond Vitale), it's not about whether or not the player would thrive in an enhanced role but that Bylsma won't even try because we've got Craig Adams or Richard Park or Ben Lovejoy.

I keep going back to the start of the 2006 season. A big reason Jordan Staal and Kris Letang started the season with the big club is because Therrien really pushed for it. Staal stayed, even though the Pens didn't budget for it and even though they had those extra one way deals, because he POTENTIALLY could have brought more to the table than Dominic Moore and it was worth finding out.

With Bylsma, when I look at how he handles those young players, it makes me wonder if he doesn't even think it's worth finding out. And, it makes me ask this:

If Dan Bylsma had been the Penguins coach going into the 2006-2007 season, would either Staal or Letang have started the season with the big club? I, for one, have serious doubts.

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05-24-2012, 10:52 PM
  #271
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Originally Posted by BlindWillyMcHurt View Post
I agree, actually. Orpik gets a lot of free passes in Penguins-land. I understand his injuries have limited him somewhat... but I also feel he's simply on the downward spiral, at this point. I also often think his supposed "vocal leadership" causes more divides than it does create solidarity and resolve amongst his teammates. One way or the other... he looked extremely bad almost all last season.

If Michalek truly wants out... there is yet another piece that might have to be moved for the best interests of the team. I'd rather see what he can do for at least another season, though.

If I'm being honest... I doubt Shero even ends up trading Martin, though. Much less those other guys. Excuses will be found. Shero is often patient (and loyal) to a fault.



I could see that. I hope it's not the case... but I could see it. And I'm completely with you regarding difficulty moving Martin. I know the company line is that he's still a "solid" defenseman and that there are "plenty" of teams out there that would love to have him. But I just don't know. Trades are often tricky enough under ideal circumstances... and Martin looked every bit like an absolute joke of a defenseman all last season.

I mean... what is Shero supposed to tell other GMs? "Don't worry... he's fine... my coach is just a doofus." Yeah... that'd fly.
Josh Yohe has said on twitter 2 or 3 times that from his knowledge and what he has been told those rumors are all bunk. FWIW

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05-24-2012, 11:36 PM
  #272
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Ok, I broke it down and here it is.

11/11 he got 1 shift with Staal on second line
This was a shift on the 2nd PP unit, not a regular shift on the 2nd line.
11/12 he got 2 shifts in top 6, 1 with Geno (1st line) 1 with Staal (2nd line)
He did get one shift with Geno right after a goal was scored, but his shift with Staal was on a PP with the #2 unit.
12/16 he got 3 shifts in top 6, 1 with Geno (1st) 2 with Duper (2nd) Sid and Staal out
His two shifts with Dupuis were on the 2nd PP unit, and his shift with Malkin was when he was double shifted on the 4th line in place of MacIntyre
12/17 he got 8 shifts in top 6, 2 with Geno (1st) 6 with Duper (2nd) Sid and Staal out
His 1st shift with Dupuis was on 2nd PP unit, his 1st shift with Malkin was when Adams came off the ice and Malkin went on, his 2nd shift with Dupuis was on the 2nd PP unit, his 2nd shift with Malkin was because the lines got screwed up (Tangradi took a short shift and Neal and Kunitz came on with Malkin and those 3 completed their shift together), and his last 3 shifts with Dupuis were regular shifts but in mop up duty at the end of an 8-3 game. I only counted 5 shifts too not 6
1/10 he got 9 shifts with Duper (2nd line) Sid and Staal out
This game is good. Most of his shifts were with Dupuis and Kennedy.
1/11 he got 3 shifts in top 9, 2 with Geno 1 with Jeffrey (2 or 3) Sid and Staal out
His 1st shift with Malkin was a very short shift and Kunitz and Neal came out shortly after and Malkin played the majority of his shift with those two, his 2nd shift with Malkin was when Malkin was double shifted on the 4th line because of what appears to be an issue with Adams (a very long time went in between two of Adams's shifts), and his shift with Jeffrey I think was more because of Jeffrey getting demoted for a shift and not Tangradi getting promoted (Asham was out there still with Tangradi who he played with all game and had Adams centering. Adams played his next shift with Jeffrey's usual linemates)
1/13 he got 3 shifts in top 9, 3 with Park or Jeffrey (line 2 and 3) Sid and Staal out
One of his shifts with Jeffrey was on the 2nd PP unit, and his one shift with Park was right after a PP finished. He also was benched this game for about 10 minutes twice.
1/15 he got 2 shifts with Dustin Jeffrey (line 2 or 3) Sid and Staal out
He was benched for 10 minuets again in this game, but he did get his two shifts with Jeffrey
1/17 he got 4 shifts in the top 9, 3 with Jeffrey and 1 with Park (2 and 3) Sid and Staal out
His shift with Park was also with Adams, one of his shifts with Jeffrey was on the 2nd PP unit, and he was also benched in this game for almost a whole period once, and didn't see a shift for the last 15 minutes of the game.
1/19 he got 1 shift with Dustin Jeffrey (line 2 or 3) Sid and Staal out
He was benched in this game for 10 minutes twice, but he did get his one shift with Jeffrey at the very end of the game.
1/20 he got 2 shifts with Dustin Jeffrey (line 2 or 3) Sid and Staal out
He actually only had one shift with Jeffrey. He jumped on for Jeffrey for not very long and then Jeffrey jumped right back on for him. He also stopped playing about halfway through the game. I'm not sure if he got hurt or not, but he played in the next game.
1/22 he got 3 shifts in top 9, 2 with Jeffrey and 1 with Park (2 and 3)
One of his shifts with Jeffrey was on the 2nd PP unit, and he also was benched for almost the whole 3rd period (again, not sure if he was hurt or not).
2/21 he got 2 shifts with Jordan Staal (2nd line)
His first shift with Staal looks like Staal was being double shifted on the 4th line because Adams was out there as well, and he was benched for about 10 minutes three times (only getting one shift from a little more than halfway through the game till the end of the game)
2/25 he got 1 shift with Geno (1st line)
His one shift with Malkin was when Malkin was being double shifted on the 4th line (Adams was out there as well).
2/26 he got 2 shifts in top 6, one with Geno and one with Staal
He was benched for 20 minutes or so at one point, his shift with Geno was when Geno was being double shifted on the 4th line (Adams was out there too), and Staal jumped on the ice at the end of Tangradi's shift (he jumped on for Malkin).
2/29 he got two shifts with Staal (2nd line)
He was benched for 10 minutes once, and the two times he played with Staal was when Staal was double shifted on the 4th line (Sullivan got hurt I think).
3/03 he got two shifts with Staal (2nd line)
His shifts with Staal was when Staal was double shifted on the 4th line (Adams was out there once and Asham another), and he was benched for over 10 minutes
3/11 no shifts in top 6
3/17 he got 3 shifts in top 6, 2 with Staal (2nd line), 1 with Geno (1st line)
He was benched for almost 20 minutes once and 10 minutes another time, his first shift with Staal and Malkin was at the end of Staal's shift and when Staal came off Malkin jumped on then Tangradi and Adams left the ice shortly after, and his second shift with Staal was when Staal was double shifted on the 4th line (Adams was out there)
3/18 he got 3 shifts in top 6, 2 with Staal (2nd line), 1 with Geno (1st line)
He was benched for around 10 minutes three times, his two shifts with Staal was Staal being double shifted on the 4th line (Asham was out there both times), the same exact thing with Malkin as well.
3/20 he got 4 shifts in top 9, 2 with Sid (3rd line), 1 with Geno (1st line), 1 with Staal (2nd)
He was benched for 10 minutes twice, two of his shifts with Crosby was Sid being double shifted on the 4th line (Asham was out there), same thing for Staal, and same thing for Geno.
3/24 he got 6 shifts in top 9, 3 with Geno (1st line), 2 with Sid (2nd line), 1 with Staal (3rd line)
One of his shifts was with Crosby and Staal, then he had a short shift with Malkin and Kunitz, one of his shifts with Malkin was when Malkin was double shifted on the 4th line (Asham was out there), his last shift with Crosby was with Dupuis, and his last shift with Malkin was with Dupuis.
3/29 3/24 he got 5 shifts in top 9, 2 with Geno (1st line), 2 with Sid (2nd line), 1 with Staal (3rd line)
He was benched for 10 minutes once and almost 15 minutes another time, he got one shift with Crosby and Kunitz, his 1st shift with Malkin was when Malkin was double shifted on the 4th line (Asham was out there), he had a short shift with Crosby and Dupuis, his one shift with Staal was with Cooke too, and his last shift with Malkin was Malkin again double shifting on the 4th line (Adams was out there).
I did not include final game, was irrelevant I thought.
See above. This was using the website Fogel provided. It's pretty neat actually.

Basically, it shows all of this supposed opportunity in the top 6 wasn't really opportunity at all. He did get more legitimate shots at the end of the season though.


Last edited by MrBurgundy: 05-24-2012 at 11:59 PM.
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05-25-2012, 01:47 AM
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froods
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Great info Burgundy. I should have said the 2nd line center, 3rd line center, ect. I was not doing that to win an argument. I did realize that the center could have came down to the fourth line. By the time I typed all the info I just forgot about it. Sorry.

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05-25-2012, 03:32 AM
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Tender Rip
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Awesome documentation work!

Of course it is no surprise to those of us who watched and paid just moderate attention. Sad that we cannot count Froods among us .

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05-25-2012, 03:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlindWillyMcHurt View Post
This isn't really directed towards you, in particular... but I'm curious as to why so many people seem eager to trade Niskanen. He was probably the Penguins steadiest presence on the blueline all season... at least in his own end. Is it just because everyone figures he'll want too much?
I'd say that, but also we have good prospects we need to integrate, and Niskanen's strong season makes him an asset. Take those three arguments together, and its pretty compelling.

I have no problem starting the season with 8 D-men:

Brooks Letang
Despres Michalek
Strait Engelland
Bortuzzo, Lovejoy

Add a rental at the deadline if needed. The basic problem on D wasn't the individual quality of the players (although some stund), but rather how they played as defensive units, the amount of odd-man rushes given up etc.

Again, I have no problem with Niskanen. I just think trading him will end up being better asset/cap management.

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