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05-25-2012, 02:48 AM
  #276
Ragamuffin Gunner
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Originally Posted by froods View Post
what was he supposed to do Ragamuffin???? Those were the 2nd and 3rd line centers. Seriously dude.
Again, i'm not arguing about what DB was supposed to do in games both Sid and Staal were hurt, I'm telling you that shifts with DJ/Park/Duper as his center don't count as top 9 shifts and doesn't "prove" that ET was given a fair shot.

And MrBurgundy totally tore you're flawless "argument" apart. I was giving you the benefit of the doubt and assuming that your list was accurate, but I should have known that you tried to skew the stats to "prove" your point. 15 sec with Malkin when Adams gets off early it totally enough of a chance to prove yourself. How the **** didn't ET score in that situation???

I think we're all still waiting for some real evidence showing how ET was given those "many opportunities" this season you saw...


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05-25-2012, 02:58 AM
  #277
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See above. This was using the website Fogel provided. It's pretty neat actually.

Basically, it shows all of this supposed opportunity in the top 6 wasn't really opportunity at all. He did get more legitimate shots at the end of the season though.
Awesome!

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05-25-2012, 07:28 AM
  #278
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Like TR said, many of us *****ing about DB handling of Tangradi knew what MB posted already (even though that was incredible work MB). As I said I have the benefit of a DVR and can review a game in ten or fifteen minutes, so I have that advantage to see if I remembered things correctly.

The point here isn't to rag on Froods and say "I told you so". Sometimes people don't remember things correctly, etc and it is why you have to be careful when using general stats. Froods usually is a reasonable poster and just had an opinion that was different than most of us.

I have little doubt Tangradi even got his so called shot because of Shero and not DB wishes. It is really a shame DB pre-judged the guy without giving him a legit chance, but what's done is done.

This doesn't mean Tangradi is some star prospect that will light up the NHL, but I know he has the tools to help this team, even if he just becomes a talented third liner. King got a legit shot as I keep harping on and he was playing mostly on the third line, but he had a big impact there.

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05-25-2012, 07:34 AM
  #279
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I'd say that, but also we have good prospects we need to integrate, and Niskanen's strong season makes him an asset. Take those three arguments together, and its pretty compelling.

I have no problem starting the season with 8 D-men:

Brooks Letang
Despres Michalek
Strait Engelland
Bortuzzo, Lovejoy

Add a rental at the deadline if needed. The basic problem on D wasn't the individual quality of the players (although some stund), but rather how they played as defensive units, the amount of odd-man rushes given up etc.

Again, I have no problem with Niskanen. I just think trading him will end up being better asset/cap management.
Insert Niskanen for Lovejoy and I like that to start the season. Lovejoy won't be back. They put Strait and Despres in over him in those last three playoff games. That pretty much tells you everything right there. He's in the last year of a very cap friendly contract so if Shero can get a late round draft pick for him that would be a bonus.

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05-25-2012, 08:33 AM
  #280
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Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
Like TR said, many of us *****ing about DB handling of Tangradi knew what MB posted already (even though that was incredible work MB). As I said I have the benefit of a DVR and can review a game in ten or fifteen minutes, so I have that advantage to see if I remembered things correctly.

The point here isn't to rag on Froods and say "I told you so". Sometimes people don't remember things correctly, etc and it is why you have to be careful when using general stats. Froods usually is a reasonable poster and just had an opinion that was different than most of us.

I have little doubt Tangradi even got his so called shot because of Shero and not DB wishes. It is really a shame DB pre-judged the guy without giving him a legit chance, but what's done is done.

This doesn't mean Tangradi is some star prospect that will light up the NHL, but I know he has the tools to help this team, even if he just becomes a talented third liner. King got a legit shot as I keep harping on and he was playing mostly on the third line, but he had a big impact there.
It goes beyond just the 'handling' . . .

Tangradi earned a shot after the cup season. He spent the preseason with Sid and Kunitz and was killing it out there. BUT, we had Guerin and plenty of vets for the other lines . . .

Morrow last year . . . no 10 game shot (even with Orpik starting the season on IR)

Despres, the year before at his first camp . . . no 10 game shot (o'k, I get it . . . Engo/Lovejoy were 6/7, but, really, no 10 games).

I wrote this before, and I'll write this again. If Dan Byslma had been the coach of the Penguins going into the 2006-2007 season, then BOTH Jordan Staal and Kris Letang would have been sent back to juniors before the start of the season, just like Morrow this year and Despres the year before . . . Despres arguably had as good a camp as Letang in 2006, Morrow's this year was better.

This whole Tangradi discussion really opens up one of the bigger concerns that I've got about Bylsma: He's NOT a good coach of talented, young players. Do you trust him with Tangradi or Morrow or Despres, to put them into those situations where they'll make mistakes, learn, and grow? ****, is Jordan Staal a better defensive player now than he was three years ago? Even Malkin, yeah, he got back on track offensively, but in 2009, the player Bylsma inherited from Therrien played like the Torts' version of Lecavalier on steroids. Malkin now . . . a shell of the player he was defensively in 2009 and possibly even worse than he was as a 18 year old playing for Dave King.

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05-25-2012, 08:40 AM
  #281
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Originally Posted by KIRK View Post
It goes beyond just the 'handling' . . .

Tangradi earned a shot after the cup season. He spent the preseason with Sid and Kunitz and was killing it out there. BUT, we had Guerin and plenty of vets for the other lines . . .

Morrow last year . . . no 10 game shot (even with Orpik starting the season on IR)

Despres, the year before at his first camp . . . no 10 game shot (o'k, I get it . . . Engo/Lovejoy were 6/7, but, really, no 10 games).

I wrote this before, and I'll write this again. If Dan Byslma had been the coach of the Penguins going into the 2006-2007 season, then BOTH Jordan Staal and Kris Letang would have been sent back to juniors before the start of the season, just like Morrow this year and Despres the year before . . . Despres arguably had as good a camp as Letang in 2006, Morrow's this year was better.

This whole Tangradi discussion really opens up one of the bigger concerns that I've got about Bylsma: He's NOT a good coach of talented, young players. Do you trust him with Tangradi or Morrow or Despres, to put them into those situations where they'll make mistakes, learn, and grow? ****, is Jordan Staal a better defensive player now than he was three years ago? Even Malkin, yeah, he got back on track offensively, but in 2009, the player Bylsma inherited from Therrien played like the Torts' version of Lecavalier on steroids. Malkin now . . . a shell of the player he was defensively in 2009 and possibly even worse than he was as a 18 year old playing for Dave King.
I really don't think Dan was the guy who sent Despres and Morrow back. Unlike you, I feel it was the right choice, because I don't think either on would have been a determining factor on the club. They were good but people on here talk like they were NHL ready and that's just not the case. Anyway, Shero's plan has been to let guys mature in juniors and College and bring them along slowly, esp defenseman. I think it's the right move but now with guys like Tangradi, Strait, and Bortuzzo it's time to fish or cut bait.

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05-25-2012, 08:47 AM
  #282
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I really don't think Dan was the guy who sent Despres and Morrow back. Unlike you, I feel it was the right choice, because I don't think either on would have been a determining factor on the club. They were good but people on here talk like they were NHL ready and that's just not the case. Anyway, Shero's plan has been to let guys mature in juniors and College and bring them along slowly, esp defenseman. I think it's the right move but now with guys like Tangradi, Strait, and Bortuzzo it's time to fish or cut bait.
Respectfully, I'll disagree there. Shero's instinct probably was to send them back, just like it was his instinct to send Staal and Letang back in 2006. BUT, there was one difference: In 2006, Michel Therrien pushed HARD for Shero to give them their 10 games. Letang got six and was sent back. Staal got more, even after Malkin came back after missing the first four.

And, no offense, but there is NO way, not with Orpik starting this season on IR, to suggest that Morrow shouldn't have gotten a 10 games cup of coffee.

Every other team in the league, even the good ones (like the teams that went further in the playoffs than the Pens), take shots every year with rookies like Morrow. If he'd been on probably two dozen other teams, he'd have gotten 10 games.

Morrow didn't start the year here, not because it was Shero's call, but because Bylsma lacks the stones to say 'I want this kid, at least for 10 games' and because he lacks the ability to develop and coach kids like that.

BTW, don't give me this 'it was Shero's call' BS. If Bylsma had wanted Morrow or Despres the year before or Tangradi the year before that, then they'd have started the year with the big club. It wasn't Shero's call. It was Bylsma's refusal to make a call like Therrien did in 2006 with Staal and Letang (and, again, argue 'Staal was special' if you like . . . fact is, Morrow was better than Letang in 2006 camp).

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05-25-2012, 08:55 AM
  #283
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Richard Park is a center. We desperately needed centers for a good chunk of this season. Good pick-up. Shero put together a perfectly good roster to still give Tangradi plenty of opportunities to get on the NHL roster. When those opportunities presented themselves they were wasted.
I agree in theory, but it's not like we couldn't have slotted other guys in that position. Adams, Vitale, Kennedy are all centers and Duper played there as well. We didn't need Park although I wasn't against the signing and thought he gave us some good games.

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05-25-2012, 09:07 AM
  #284
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Originally Posted by KIRK View Post
It goes beyond just the 'handling' . . .

Tangradi earned a shot after the cup season. He spent the preseason with Sid and Kunitz and was killing it out there. BUT, we had Guerin and plenty of vets for the other lines . . .

Morrow last year . . . no 10 game shot (even with Orpik starting the season on IR)

Despres, the year before at his first camp . . . no 10 game shot (o'k, I get it . . . Engo/Lovejoy were 6/7, but, really, no 10 games).

I wrote this before, and I'll write this again. If Dan Byslma had been the coach of the Penguins going into the 2006-2007 season, then BOTH Jordan Staal and Kris Letang would have been sent back to juniors before the start of the season, just like Morrow this year and Despres the year before . . . Despres arguably had as good a camp as Letang in 2006, Morrow's this year was better.

This whole Tangradi discussion really opens up one of the bigger concerns that I've got about Bylsma: He's NOT a good coach of talented, young players. Do you trust him with Tangradi or Morrow or Despres, to put them into those situations where they'll make mistakes, learn, and grow? ****, is Jordan Staal a better defensive player now than he was three years ago? Even Malkin, yeah, he got back on track offensively, but in 2009, the player Bylsma inherited from Therrien played like the Torts' version of Lecavalier on steroids. Malkin now . . . a shell of the player he was defensively in 2009 and possibly even worse than he was as a 18 year old playing for Dave King.

I hate that you are using 2006 as an example of good player development. That was a completely different situation. Going into that season Staal was one of the 12 best forwards so he got a spot. Tangradi would be getting the spot to give him a chance to develop into one of the 12 best players. With better players in front of him than Staal had in front of him to boot. Sure, Despres or Morrow might have had as good a camp as 2006 Letang. But the 2006 team wasn't as good as the team Despres and Morrow are trying to make.

We don't know what Bylsma would have done and maybe he would have handled it differently. But basing it off of what he's doing now really isn't fair. It is, and should be, harder to make a Dan Bylsma era Penguins team than a pre-2007 Penguins team. His job is to ice a contender every year. Bylsma does need to get better at developing players on a winning team. But those mid 2000's teams were basically development teams. That was the year we turned the corner, but just look at that roster compared to what guys are competing against now to make the team.


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05-25-2012, 09:08 AM
  #285
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Originally Posted by Tender Rip View Post
I'd say that, but also we have good prospects we need to integrate, and Niskanen's strong season makes him an asset. Take those three arguments together, and its pretty compelling.

I have no problem starting the season with 8 D-men:

Brooks Letang
Despres Michalek
Strait Engelland
Bortuzzo, Lovejoy

Add a rental at the deadline if needed. The basic problem on D wasn't the individual quality of the players (although some stund), but rather how they played as defensive units, the amount of odd-man rushes given up etc.

Again, I have no problem with Niskanen. I just think trading him will end up being better asset/cap management.
Keep Nisky, dump Lovejoy. Roll 8.

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05-25-2012, 09:12 AM
  #286
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Originally Posted by Ogrezilla View Post
I hate that you are using 2006 as an example of good player development. That was a completely different situation. Going into that season Staal was one of the 12 best forwards so he got a spot. Tangradi would be getting the spot to give him a chance to develop into one of the 12 best players. With better players in front of him to boot. Sure, Despres or Morrow might have had as good a camp as 2006 Letang. But the 2006 team wasn't as good as the team Despres and Morrow are trying to make.

We don't know what Bylsma would have done and maybe he would have handled it differently. But basing it off of what he's doing now really isn't fair. It is, and should be, harder to make a Dan Bylsma era Penguins team than a pre-2007 Penguins team. His job is to ice a contender every year. Bylsma does need to get better at developing players on a winning team. But those mid 2000's teams were basically development teams. That was the year we turned the corner, but just look at that roster compared to what guys are competing against now to make the team.
I agree.

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05-25-2012, 09:13 AM
  #287
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I agree in theory, but it's not like we couldn't have slotted other guys in that position. Adams, Vitale, Kennedy are all centers and Duper played there as well. We didn't need Park although I wasn't against the signing and thought he gave us some good games.
We were desperate enough for an extra center that we picked up Cal O'Reilly.

The depth on this roster worked out almost perfectly aside from Sid going back out after we traded Letestu. We never had to dip deeper than 3 forwards into WBS but there were still plenty of times where roster spots were open to give Tangradi his shot.

After last season Shero wasn't going to go into this season without depth. I said it before each of the last two seasons, you don't want to build an NHL team with only 12 forwards. There are always injuries.

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05-25-2012, 09:15 AM
  #288
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Great info Burgundy. I should have said the 2nd line center, 3rd line center, ect. I was not doing that to win an argument. I did realize that the center could have came down to the fourth line. By the time I typed all the info I just forgot about it. Sorry.
No harm done. I wasn't really trying to set out to prove you right or wrong. I was just curious because I believed they handled Tangradi wrong this year.

What really bothered me was how many times they benched him and the length of time they did it for. There were other times that he was benched for 7 or 8 minutes that I didn't post. There is no way you can get into the flow of the game and look any good when you are getting such sporadic minutes. Even Malkin or Crosby would have problems scoring if they were treated like that (they obviously still would, but they wouldn't be themselves).

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05-25-2012, 09:17 AM
  #289
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Originally Posted by KIRK View Post
It goes beyond just the 'handling' . . .

Tangradi earned a shot after the cup season. He spent the preseason with Sid and Kunitz and was killing it out there. BUT, we had Guerin and plenty of vets for the other lines . . .

Morrow last year . . . no 10 game shot (even with Orpik starting the season on IR)

Despres, the year before at his first camp . . . no 10 game shot (o'k, I get it . . . Engo/Lovejoy were 6/7, but, really, no 10 games).

I wrote this before, and I'll write this again. If Dan Byslma had been the coach of the Penguins going into the 2006-2007 season, then BOTH Jordan Staal and Kris Letang would have been sent back to juniors before the start of the season, just like Morrow this year and Despres the year before . . . Despres arguably had as good a camp as Letang in 2006, Morrow's this year was better.

This whole Tangradi discussion really opens up one of the bigger concerns that I've got about Bylsma: He's NOT a good coach of talented, young players. Do you trust him with Tangradi or Morrow or Despres, to put them into those situations where they'll make mistakes, learn, and grow? ****, is Jordan Staal a better defensive player now than he was three years ago? Even Malkin, yeah, he got back on track offensively, but in 2009, the player Bylsma inherited from Therrien played like the Torts' version of Lecavalier on steroids. Malkin now . . . a shell of the player he was defensively in 2009 and possibly even worse than he was as a 18 year old playing for Dave King.
I try to be objective and look at things from a number of perspectives.

Morrow did well, but I had no problem with him being sent back. I think agt Det you could see he was a little overwhelmed.

Despres he really seems to like and he brought him up over Picard in the playoffs, so that is a positive.

He did give Jeffrey a shot.

Bort and Strait were injured so there isn't any way we can blame DB for that.

Vitale I believe would of been sent back and lost on waivers if Crosby wasn't hurt. I can't see DB at the time putting Adams or Park on waivers.... He benched him needlessly a few times this season and his benching in the playoffs was ********.

With Tangradi, there is no excuse. He has botched his development and there is no excuse you can make for him. As I said, I believe he doesn't like him and misjudged Tangradi. He set him up to fail.

I don't want DB fired. I truly believe he is going to grow from his experiences this year and maybe realize you can win in this league with rookies playing prominent roles.

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05-25-2012, 09:17 AM
  #290
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Originally Posted by KIRK View Post
Respectfully, I'll disagree there. Shero's instinct probably was to send them back, just like it was his instinct to send Staal and Letang back in 2006. BUT, there was one difference: In 2006, Michel Therrien pushed HARD for Shero to give them their 10 games. Letang got six and was sent back. Staal got more, even after Malkin came back after missing the first four.

And, no offense, but there is NO way, not with Orpik starting this season on IR, to suggest that Morrow shouldn't have gotten a 10 games cup of coffee.

Every other team in the league, even the good ones (like the teams that went further in the playoffs than the Pens), take shots every year with rookies like Morrow. If he'd been on probably two dozen other teams, he'd have gotten 10 games.

Morrow didn't start the year here, not because it was Shero's call, but because Bylsma lacks the stones to say 'I want this kid, at least for 10 games' and because he lacks the ability to develop and coach kids like that.

BTW, don't give me this 'it was Shero's call' BS. If Bylsma had wanted Morrow or Despres the year before or Tangradi the year before that, then they'd have started the year with the big club. It wasn't Shero's call. It was Bylsma's refusal to make a call like Therrien did in 2006 with Staal and Letang (and, again, argue 'Staal was special' if you like . . . fact is, Morrow was better than Letang in 2006 camp).
If anyone deserved to stay and take over Orpiks spot it was Strait not Morrow. We aren't other teams. We don't need to rush these guys to the NHL. The Pens defensive system is extremely complex and requires and adjustment period to grasp. You can see that with Michalek and Martin who have yet to feel comfortable playing it. It's not like Morrow or Despres were going to lead us to the Stanley cup.

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05-25-2012, 09:18 AM
  #291
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No harm done. I wasn't really trying to set out to prove you right or wrong. I was just curious because I believed they handled Tangradi wrong this year.

What really bothered me was how many times they benched him and the length of time they did it for. There were other times that he was benched for 7 or 8 minutes that I didn't post. There is no way you can get into the flow of the game and look any good when you are getting such sporadic minutes. Even Malkin or Crosby would have problems scoring if they were treated like that (they obviously still would, but they wouldn't be themselves).
It really doesn't make any sense. Part of me hopes that there is something we don't know about Tangradi causing the problems because I'd rather have a bad attitude from my prospect than my head coach.

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05-25-2012, 09:19 AM
  #292
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We were desperate enough for an extra center that we picked up Cal O'Reilly.

The depth on this roster worked out almost perfectly aside from Sid going back out after we traded Letestu. We never had to dip deeper than 3 forwards into WBS but there were still plenty of times where roster spots were open to give Tangradi his shot. After last season Shero wasn't going to go into this season without depth. I said it before each of the last two seasons, you don't want to build an NHL team with only 12 forwards. There are always injuries.
Well if we would have kept Letestu, we wouldn't have had to get O'Reilly, and Park would have been irrelevant. I doubt Shero planned for Vitale to make the team when he signed Park too. We would have had Malkin, Staal, Letestu, Jeffrey, Adams, Vitale, Dupuis, and Kennedy all as guys who could play center. Then throw Crosby in there who I'm sure Shero thought would be back for more of the season than what he was.

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05-25-2012, 09:20 AM
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Vitale I believe would of been sent back and lost on waivers if Crosby wasn't hurt. I can't see DB at the time putting Adams or Park on waivers.... He benched him needlessly a few times this season and his benching in the playoffs was ********.
I have to think Shero doesn't sign Park if Crosby is coming in to the season healthy.

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05-25-2012, 09:22 AM
  #294
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Vitale I believe would of been sent back and lost on waivers if Crosby wasn't hurt. I can't see DB at the time putting Adams or Park on waivers.... He benched him needlessly a few times this season and his benching in the playoffs was ********.
I believe this as well, and we'd end up potentially losing Vitale for nothing and Park would be gone in the offseason anyway.

On the other hand, if Crosby was healthy then Shero might not have signed Park in the first place.

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05-25-2012, 09:22 AM
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Well if we would have kept Letestu, we wouldn't have had to get O'Reilly, and Park would have been irrelevant. I doubt Shero planned for Vitale to make the team when he signed Park too. We would have had Malkin, Staal, Letestu, Jeffrey, Adams, Vitale, Dupuis, and Kennedy all as guys who could play center. Then throw Crosby in there who I'm sure Shero thought would be back for more of the season than what he was.
I would have liked to see Shero waive Park/Adams instead of trade Letestu but I don't think Shero likes losing guys for nothing and he probably figured those guys might be better 4th line center fits anyway. But ya, you're right. I didn't piece everything together there

I still want to see Adams gone. Not because I think he's a terrible 4th liner, but because I think we need to take him away from Bylsma.

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05-25-2012, 09:24 AM
  #296
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It really doesn't make any sense. Part of me hopes that there is something we don't know about Tangradi causing the problems because I'd rather have a bad attitude from my prospect than my head coach.
I'm hoping the way he was treated at the end of the season (getting more quality time with our top centers), and the fact that he was given a shot in the playoffs for two games, is a positive sign going forward that Bylsma is turning a corner on how he views him.

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05-25-2012, 09:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
I try to be objective and look at things from a number of perspectives.

Morrow did well, but I had no problem with him being sent back. I think agt Det you could see he was a little overwhelmed.

Despres he really seems to like and he brought him up over Picard in the playoffs, so that is a positive.

He did give Jeffrey a shot.

Bort and Strait were injured so there isn't any way we can blame DB for that.

Vitale I believe would of been sent back and lost on waivers if Crosby wasn't hurt. I can't see DB at the time putting Adams or Park on waivers.... He benched him needlessly a few times this season and his benching in the playoffs was ********.

With Tangradi, there is no excuse. He has botched his development and there is no excuse you can make for him. As I said, I believe he doesn't like him and misjudged Tangradi. He set him up to fail.

I don't want DB fired. I truly believe he is going to grow from his experiences this year and maybe realize you can win in this league with rookies playing prominent roles.
I really, really hope you're right. If you are, then some special things can happen. If you aren't, then it's another year of Sid and Geno down the drain in the name of DB's learning curve.

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05-25-2012, 09:27 AM
  #298
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Originally Posted by Ogrezilla View Post
I have to think Shero doesn't sign Park if Crosby is coming in to the season healthy.
I think Shero still signs him, because he always wants depth. To him it was a no risk signing.

No way in hell DB would of sent Park or Adams to the A over an unproven Vitale.

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05-25-2012, 09:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post

I don't want DB fired. I truly believe he is going to grow from his experiences this year and maybe realize you can win in this league with rookies playing prominent roles.
The sad part is, we didn't even need Tangradi in a prominent role. Just a role that you can actually define and understand.

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05-25-2012, 09:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
I think Shero still signs him, because he always wants depth. To him it was a no risk signing.

No way in hell DB would of sent Park or Adams to the A over an unproven Vitale.
serious question. Is that DB or Shero's call? Ultimately, I would have to think it's Shero's though he may defer to the coach more often than not.

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