HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Metropolitan Division > Pittsburgh Penguins
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

Tangradi's next contract

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
05-26-2012, 04:22 AM
  #326
Tender Rip
#Haz supa line mates
 
Tender Rip's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Shanghai, China
Posts: 12,865
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Malkin4Top6Wingerz View Post
I was responding to a comment that implied Staal had regressed defensively. This is not true, and his offensive game has improved leaps and bounds from where it was prior.
I would ascribe Staal's relative shortcomings defensively this season more to having had many injuries plus the fact that the system itself didn't work. That said - Staal was better defensively in 2009 and 2010 than he was this season. I don't think that is even up for debate - just like his offense has obviously been at a completely different level from what it was before. Maybe Bylsma deserves praise for the latter, he sure has been building up Staal's confidence by fawning over him .

Quote:
Originally Posted by Malkin4Top6Wingerz View Post
As for the rest of your post, again, keep in mind who and what I'm responding to. I don't necessarily believe that Byslma had a major influence on those players, but if you're going to point to an area of a player's game that you feel declined and attribute it to the coach for no other reason than because they are the coach, it would reek of an agenda to ignore all of the vast improvements players have made under said coach, whether they were ultimately responsible or not.
No it doesn't. Malkin was trusted by his former coaches, and kept on developing also when it came to defense, penalty killing etc. He wasn't trusted by Bylsma until he was forced to ride him hard and got rewarded for it. KIRK and I among others have been pointing this out since forever, and when you give a reasonably healthy Malkin the reigns, big minutes and useful support, you see him go. For me this season validates what we've been saying, but there is still more to come from Malkin.
I give Bylsma zero credit for Malkin's grand season yet consider him a considerable part of the reason he was disappointing last season - though again injuries of course were a bigger reason.

Tender Rip is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-26-2012, 05:15 AM
  #327
Malkin4Top6Wingerz
Can you like, shutup
 
Malkin4Top6Wingerz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Country: United States
Posts: 4,963
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tender Rip View Post
No it doesn't. Malkin was trusted by his former coaches, and kept on developing also when it came to defense, penalty killing etc. He wasn't trusted by Bylsma until he was forced to ride him hard and got rewarded for it. KIRK and I among others have been pointing this out since forever, and when you give a reasonably healthy Malkin the reigns, big minutes and useful support, you see him go. For me this season validates what we've been saying, but there is still more to come from Malkin.
I give Bylsma zero credit for Malkin's grand season yet consider him a considerable part of the reason he was disappointing last season - though again injuries of course were a bigger reason.
You are not the one who I believe has the agenda, so properly responding to your posts which were directed at me which were directed at KIRK is difficult. I agree with some of what was said about Malkin over the last few years. I don't think Bylsma used him particularly well, though I would say Shero deserves part of the blame here too for not finding somebody suitable as a stop gap to compliment him. I'm sure the heavy North American presence and 'grit' on the Penguins to some degree facilitates the notion that a player like Malkin is not properly tailored to, and I can buy that to some extent. But what about Staal and this alleged defensive decline? Did Bylsma have something to do with that? There's no narrative here to run with, so I'm curious how anybody can pit him responsible unless that is to say that the coach must get the most out of his players. Which I would agree with, and then direct you to the player pages of Sidney Crosby, Kris Letang, James Neal, and hey - even Jordan Staal, to show that Bylsma is quite adept at getting the most out of his players.

If those examples show a trend, it's that Bylsma handles players from North America a lot better than he does than from say, Russia. I'm pretty sure a lot of coaches are guilty of that.

Malkin4Top6Wingerz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-26-2012, 06:19 AM
  #328
Tender Rip
#Haz supa line mates
 
Tender Rip's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Shanghai, China
Posts: 12,865
vCash: 500
Hehe. Not saying KIRK doesn't have an agenda of sorts; only that this particular part of the agenda is so much in tune with my opinions that I cannot consider it an agenda, but rather a highly lucid and well founded opinion .

Tender Rip is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-26-2012, 07:53 AM
  #329
Ogrezilla
Nerf Herder
 
Ogrezilla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Pittsburgh
Posts: 35,451
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Malkin4Top6Wingerz View Post
I was responding to a comment that implied Staal had regressed defensively. This is not true, and his offensive game has improved leaps and bounds from where it was prior.

As for the rest of your post, again, keep in mind who and what I'm responding to. I don't necessarily believe that Byslma had a major influence on those players, but if you're going to point to an area of a player's game that you feel declined and attribute it to the coach for no other reason than because they are the coach, it would reek of an agenda to ignore all of the vast improvements players have made under said coach, whether they were ultimately responsible or not.
Like I said in my post, I don't think Staal has actually become a worse defensive player. He has changed his main focus from defense to offense though. He is playing worse defense because his role has shifted to an offensive one. He is a better player now than he has ever been. If he was still being sent out there to be a shut-down guy I'm pretty sure he'd be better at that than he's ever been but that isn't the current reality so we don't know for sure. Is it possible Bylsma is the culprit here? Sure, I guess. I don't think Bylsma is the biggest thing to change since Staal was last a great defensive center, especially considering he got his Selke nomination under Bylsma. It seems like a stretch to place the blame there considering the other factors at play.

Malkin was never a defensive stalwart here, but he was much better at takeaways. His in-zone D hasn't changed much but his backchecking seems like it may have. Though as you say, he was spending more time chasing the puck before. It got him more takeaways, but it probably also meant he was out of position at times. Honestly, I'd have to go watch Therrien era Malkin again. There were two relatively disappointing seasons in between great years so I am just overjoyed to see him back on top of the league He certainly improved this year under Bylsma. And with the way the game has changed this is easily his most impressive offensive season.

On Topic: Let the Big Dog eat!


Last edited by Ogrezilla: 05-26-2012 at 07:59 AM.
Ogrezilla is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-26-2012, 08:24 AM
  #330
Tender Rip
#Haz supa line mates
 
Tender Rip's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Shanghai, China
Posts: 12,865
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ogrezilla View Post
If he was still being sent out there to be a shut-down guy
With Sid and Malkin both playing, that is exactly what his primary task is, and Bylsma trying to match him up against Giroux whenever he could is a testament to just that.

Staal is still a very strong defensive forward, obviously, but it was noticeable to most that he was beaten on the backcheck much more this season than previous season and that he lost his man more often than we've seen before also.

Tender Rip is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-26-2012, 08:33 AM
  #331
Ogrezilla
Nerf Herder
 
Ogrezilla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Pittsburgh
Posts: 35,451
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tender Rip View Post
With Sid and Malkin both playing, that is exactly what his primary task is, and Bylsma trying to match him up against Giroux whenever he could is a testament to just that.
After having an extended chance in the top 6 though, I feel like he was still trying to make more happen offensively than he used to. He wasn't playing quite as safe as he used to.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tender Rip View Post
Staal is still a very strong defensive forward, obviously, but it was noticeable to most that he was beaten on the backcheck much more this season than previous season and that he lost his man more often than we've seen before also.
Backchecking isn't on the coach. Losing his guy could be because that could be a system thing. Everyone on the team was losing their guy all season.

Ogrezilla is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-26-2012, 09:51 AM
  #332
KIRK
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 35,400
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tender Rip View Post
Hehe. Not saying KIRK doesn't have an agenda of sorts; only that this particular part of the agenda is so much in tune with my opinions that I cannot consider it an agenda, but rather a highly lucid and well founded opinion .
Ah yes, my conspiratorial agenda to see the Pens win and to think that having Malkin on the ice playing like the Torts version of Lecavalier circa 2003 on steroids actually could play an integral role in that . . . quite the scandal . . .

Staal is no better defensively than he was three years ago, yet that is an 'implied regression' on my part. Malkin is a shell of the player he was defensively as a 18 year old playing for Dave King, and apparently suggesting that has something to do with the coach (trust and system) cries 'agenda'. Tangradi, Despres, Morrow . . . yeah, I watch young kids of comparable talent in similar situations get that chance to sink of swim. Some swim. Some sink. BUT, apparently questioning why this coach doesn't give those kids a comparable chance to do so (and then noting 'we sure could have used players like the ones Tangradi and Despres project to be against the Flyers this year) . . . yep, you guessed it, 'agenda' again.

Thank goodness I didn't repeat my suggestion from a few weeks ago that if Bylsma would use Crosby and Malkin like Sutter uses Richards and Kopitar, then the impact of trading Staal would be far less than some here fear it might be.

Thank goodness I didn't repeat my thoughts on the world championships and that, instead of trying to compare it to the playoffs, focus instead on all those give and gos Malkin was working on the breakout, especially near his blue line, then recall how Sid and Guerin used to do the same thing in the cup year, and then question why, when you've got centers who can work with just a little time and space like that, Bylsma is running that stretch pass breakout all the time. Now, THAT would have invited calls of my having an 'agenda'.

Heaven forbid I see Geno as a superstar and suggest that he's wasted as a one-dimensional offensive player. Heaven forbid that I suggest that kids like Tangradi or Despres or Morrow could have had a real impact this year and that it would have been nice to have a coach with the patience and ability as a teacher of young talent to find out BEFORE we discovered that the veteran plan had its flaws (again).

Apparently, if you want the Pens to win, if you think that their best players and talented young players are and will be the key to that, and if you think that their coach should be someone who sees and uses them as such and puts them into the best possible position to succeed on the ice, then you have an 'agenda'.

The sad thing in all of this is that my 'agenda' will only be proven if Malkin walks and plays for a coach like Babcock or Tippett or Hitchcock. My 'agenda' will only be proven when Tangradi finds his next team. Then again, maybe Bylsma will 'evolve' as so many here suggest that he will . . . eating crow will be quite preferred to another year of Sid and Geno wasted, my 'agenda' notwithstanding.

KIRK is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-26-2012, 09:56 AM
  #333
KIRK
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 35,400
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ogrezilla View Post
Like I said in my post, I don't think Staal has actually become a worse defensive player. He has changed his main focus from defense to offense though. He is playing worse defense because his role has shifted to an offensive one. He is a better player now than he has ever been. If he was still being sent out there to be a shut-down guy I'm pretty sure he'd be better at that than he's ever been but that isn't the current reality so we don't know for sure. Is it possible Bylsma is the culprit here? Sure, I guess. I don't think Bylsma is the biggest thing to change since Staal was last a great defensive center, especially considering he got his Selke nomination under Bylsma. It seems like a stretch to place the blame there considering the other factors at play.

Malkin was never a defensive stalwart here, but he was much better at takeaways. His in-zone D hasn't changed much but his backchecking seems like it may have. Though as you say, he was spending more time chasing the puck before. It got him more takeaways, but it probably also meant he was out of position at times. Honestly, I'd have to go watch Therrien era Malkin again. There were two relatively disappointing seasons in between great years so I am just overjoyed to see him back on top of the league He certainly improved this year under Bylsma. And with the way the game has changed this is easily his most impressive offensive season.

On Topic: Let the Big Dog eat!
Go watch the Therrien era Malkin again. When Therrien would do that 'we've got a plan' line, I'd just roll my eyes. BUT, in his last partial season, you could see that plan with Therrien. Introducing him to the PK, for example (Malkin, who was good there and as a 18 year old one of the best in the world, hasn't taken 1 full PK shift under Bylsma . . . strike that, against Detroit, game 4, 2009 SCF, he comes out to make a 5 on 3 into a 5 on 4, anticipates and steals the puck, damn near scores on a breakaway about 30 seconds before Staal's breakaway goal). Frankly, there was a level of trust in Geno there with Therrien that I've NEVER seen with Bylsma.

And, leaving that aside, there really are two schools of thought on Malkin: School one, the Bylsma school, is to unleash him offensively and hope for the best defensively. School two, with posters like Jiggy and coaches like King and Therrien, is that Malkin's entire game flows from his being involved and having defensive responsibility. Put me in the latter school.

KIRK is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-26-2012, 10:34 AM
  #334
Tender Rip
#Haz supa line mates
 
Tender Rip's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Shanghai, China
Posts: 12,865
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by KIRK View Post
Ah yes, my conspiratorial agenda to see the Pens win and to think that having Malkin on the ice playing like the Torts version of Lecavalier circa 2003 on steroids actually could play an integral role in that . . . quite the scandal . . .

Staal is no better defensively than he was three years ago, yet that is an 'implied regression' on my part. Malkin is a shell of the player he was defensively as a 18 year old playing for Dave King, and apparently suggesting that has something to do with the coach (trust and system) cries 'agenda'. Tangradi, Despres, Morrow . . . yeah, I watch young kids of comparable talent in similar situations get that chance to sink of swim. Some swim. Some sink. BUT, apparently questioning why this coach doesn't give those kids a comparable chance to do so (and then noting 'we sure could have used players like the ones Tangradi and Despres project to be against the Flyers this year) . . . yep, you guessed it, 'agenda' again.

Thank goodness I didn't repeat my suggestion from a few weeks ago that if Bylsma would use Crosby and Malkin like Sutter uses Richards and Kopitar, then the impact of trading Staal would be far less than some here fear it might be.

Thank goodness I didn't repeat my thoughts on the world championships and that, instead of trying to compare it to the playoffs, focus instead on all those give and gos Malkin was working on the breakout, especially near his blue line, then recall how Sid and Guerin used to do the same thing in the cup year, and then question why, when you've got centers who can work with just a little time and space like that, Bylsma is running that stretch pass breakout all the time. Now, THAT would have invited calls of my having an 'agenda'.

Heaven forbid I see Geno as a superstar and suggest that he's wasted as a one-dimensional offensive player. Heaven forbid that I suggest that kids like Tangradi or Despres or Morrow could have had a real impact this year and that it would have been nice to have a coach with the patience and ability as a teacher of young talent to find out BEFORE we discovered that the veteran plan had its flaws (again).

Apparently, if you want the Pens to win, if you think that their best players and talented young players are and will be the key to that, and if you think that their coach should be someone who sees and uses them as such and puts them into the best possible position to succeed on the ice, then you have an 'agenda'.

The sad thing in all of this is that my 'agenda' will only be proven if Malkin walks and plays for a coach like Babcock or Tippett or Hitchcock. My 'agenda' will only be proven when Tangradi finds his next team. Then again, maybe Bylsma will 'evolve' as so many here suggest that he will . . . eating crow will be quite preferred to another year of Sid and Geno wasted, my 'agenda' notwithstanding.
Ahhh..... relax .

I supported your point of view, yes?
Your 'agenda' is what mine was with regards to Martin. I am not saying you aren't mostly right (just overdoing it with stuff like "Malkin is a shell of the player he was at 18 defensively"), you are just repeating it so many times, in so many ways and in such long posts, that some others get fed up with it.

Just saying. Now do continue

Tender Rip is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-26-2012, 10:39 AM
  #335
KIRK
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 35,400
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tender Rip View Post
Ahhh..... relax .

I supported your point of view, yes?
Your 'agenda' is what mine was with regards to Martin. I am not saying you aren't mostly right (just overdoing it with stuff like "Malkin is a shell of the player he was at 18 defensively"), you are just repeating it so many times, in so many ways and in such long posts, that some others get fed up with it.

Just saying. Now do continue
Oh, I wasn't being defensive about my 'agenda' with you.

Speaking of which, remember my 'agenda' earlier this season when I said, when the Pens were playing well when Sid came back the first time, that the Pens should set things up so that Sid and Geno both had two good wingers each and could make that happen by moving Martin?

That said, having watched Malkin a bit at 18, the word 'shell' is appropriate.

KIRK is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-26-2012, 10:40 AM
  #336
Ogrezilla
Nerf Herder
 
Ogrezilla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Pittsburgh
Posts: 35,451
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by KIRK View Post
Go watch the Therrien era Malkin again. When Therrien would do that 'we've got a plan' line, I'd just roll my eyes. BUT, in his last partial season, you could see that plan with Therrien. Introducing him to the PK, for example (Malkin, who was good there and as a 18 year old one of the best in the world, hasn't taken 1 full PK shift under Bylsma . . . strike that, against Detroit, game 4, 2009 SCF, he comes out to make a 5 on 3 into a 5 on 4, anticipates and steals the puck, damn near scores on a breakaway about 30 seconds before Staal's breakaway goal). Frankly, there was a level of trust in Geno there with Therrien that I've NEVER seen with Bylsma.

And, leaving that aside, there really are two schools of thought on Malkin: School one, the Bylsma school, is to unleash him offensively and hope for the best defensively. School two, with posters like Jiggy and coaches like King and Therrien, is that Malkin's entire game flows from his being involved and having defensive responsibility. Put me in the latter school.
Just thought about it for a second, but honestly it could stem from the same 4th line love affair he always has. If Geno starts playing defensive shifts and PK, that takes ice away from the Dan Bylsma's of the league.

I don't know. I really need to just take a step back until there is actually something to talk about I think.

Ogrezilla is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-26-2012, 10:53 AM
  #337
KIRK
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 35,400
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ogrezilla View Post
Just thought about it for a second, but honestly it could stem from the same 4th line love affair he always has. If Geno starts playing defensive shifts and PK, that takes ice away from the Dan Bylsma's of the league.

I don't know. I really need to just take a step back until there is actually something to talk about I think.
ROFL . . .

You know, the other one I loved was the World Championships and how Geno played there. Some said 'well, Geno actually cared'. Others said 'well, bigger ice, less hitting, lesser competition'. Me, I just watched all of those give and go's Geno was working around his blueline on the breakout (like Sid and Guerin worked during the cup year) and was pretty sure that I saw more breakout give and go's like that in one game than I saw all season from the Pens. Forget Geno; think about Sid too, heck, even Staal. A little space, coming with speed busting through the neutral zone with the puck. That's not the staple of the Pens breakout it once was. This is the type of thing I mean when I talk about the Pens coach putting players in a position to succeed.

KIRK is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-26-2012, 11:24 AM
  #338
MtlPenFan
Registered User
 
MtlPenFan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 12,252
vCash: 500
Here's my opinion for what it's worth:

I think Staal's abilities defensively have been a little overrated for a while. Whatever "shut down" role success he's had over the years, whether under MT or DB have had more to do with his line's propensity (Whether it was the TK/Ruutu or TK/Cooke line) of spending a ton of time cycling in the offensive zone and essentially playing keep away from whichever line he's put out against. Don't get me wrong, he's solid down low and does his job well, but I think the defensive stalwart label was placed on him because of his PK abilities as well as all his shorties in his rookie year, and since then the reputation kind of stuck.

As for the development of players, I think it's really self serving to point out the supposed regression of a few players and put the blame squarely on the staff, while the improvement of others conveniently gets overlooked. For every step back a certain player has taken, I can point to another who's taken one forward. It's a convenient game to play regardless of which side you're on.

And Geno? I was angry at Bylsma for stubbornly throwing him out there against Couturier after things started going south in game two. While a 19 year old against Geno shouldn't have worked, it was, and Bylsma should have finally conceded and gotten away from that matchup. However, it really, really irks me when I hear Geno saying stuff out loud about Couturier like "He was playing me too close". You're a regular season and playoff MVP, and you're the one who should be tormenting a teenager, not the other way around.

As for him killing penalties? I mean come on. This is just a philosophical difference, but I cringe every time I see a top end player on the PK getting a puck off the foot. That's what you have your inexpensive pawns for. Regardless, this is the second time Geno's won a scoring championship and I don't see how "trusting" him on the PK is somehow going to improve that. Playing hockey in Magnitogorsk is not playing hockey in the NHL.

Before I'm done, let's just remember one thing about Tangradi. He's not a blue chipper and he was essentially a throw in for Ryan ****ing Whitney. We've had top 5 picks over the years fade into obscurity around the league and our Tangradi love has more to do with a lack of options right now rather than what he actually does on the ice. The last few games, I'll admit he looked like a really nice player that may yet have a future here, but let's not get that excited. Even Asham produced SOME scoring while seeing limited ice time, while Tangradi did very little with whatever limited time he saw.

And let's not let our GM off the hook entirely here. If he wants some kids to play, he needs to stop signing guys like Park (as useful as they can be) two weeks before training camp.

MtlPenFan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-26-2012, 11:47 AM
  #339
Ogrezilla
Nerf Herder
 
Ogrezilla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Pittsburgh
Posts: 35,451
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by MtlPenFan View Post
Here's my opinion for what it's worth:

I think Staal's abilities defensively have been a little overrated for a while. Whatever "shut down" role success he's had over the years, whether under MT or DB have had more to do with his line's propensity (Whether it was the TK/Ruutu or TK/Cooke line) of spending a ton of time cycling in the offensive zone and essentially playing keep away from whichever line he's put out against. Don't get me wrong, he's solid down low and does his job well, but I think the defensive stalwart label was placed on him because of his PK abilities as well as all his shorties in his rookie year, and since then the reputation kind of stuck.
He's been a good defensive player, but never a shutdown player in the sense of Zetterberg shadowing Crosby.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MtlPenFan View Post
As for the development of players, I think it's really self serving to point out the supposed regression of a few players and put the blame squarely on the staff, while the improvement of others conveniently gets overlooked. For every step back a certain player has taken, I can point to another who's taken one forward. It's a convenient game to play regardless of which side you're on.
Agreed. There are so many factors at play here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MtlPenFan View Post
And Geno? I was angry at Bylsma for stubbornly throwing him out there against Couturier after things started going south in game two. While a 19 year old against Geno shouldn't have worked, it was, and Bylsma should have finally conceded and gotten away from that matchup. However, it really, really irks me when I hear Geno saying stuff out loud about Couturier like "He was playing me too close". You're a regular season and playoff MVP, and you're the one who should be tormenting a teenager, not the other way around.
To be fair it wasn't just Couturier. It was a full 5 man unit designed to stop Geno. Bylsma bothered me here more than Geno.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MtlPenFan View Post
As for him killing penalties? I mean come on. This is just a philosophical difference, but I cringe every time I see a top end player on the PK getting a puck off the foot. That's what you have your inexpensive pawns for. Regardless, this is the second time Geno's won a scoring championship and I don't see how "trusting" him on the PK is somehow going to improve that. Playing hockey in Magnitogorsk is not playing hockey in the NHL.
If its Chara on the point I agree. When it's Timonen and Giroux I disagree. What we needed was to apply some pressure to them instead of just letting them toy around with our guys until they couldn't get across fast enough to stop wide open shots. I'm more annoyed with the lack of strategic adjustment than personnel adjustment though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MtlPenFan View Post
Before I'm done, let's just remember one thing about Tangradi. He's not a blue chipper and he was essentially a throw in for Ryan ****ing Whitney. We've had top 5 picks over the years fade into obscurity around the league and our Tangradi love has more to do with a lack of options right now rather than what he actually does on the ice. The last few games, I'll admit he looked like a really nice player that may yet have a future here, but let's not get that excited. Even Asham produced SOME scoring while seeing limited ice time, while Tangradi did very little with whatever limited time he saw.
The big argument here is that there's a difference between limited ice time and what Tangradi got. He got completely sporadic ice time with constant benchings of 10 minutes or more. Asham has been playing this role for years now. He can come off the bench 3 times a period and perform. Tangradi isn't going to adjust to the NHL game when he gets benched all the time.

I'm somewhere in the middle of the argument with him. I don't think he needed some golden opportunity with Sid and Geno but he deserved a regular 4th line shift at least.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MtlPenFan View Post
And let's not let our GM off the hook entirely here. If he wants some kids to play, he needs to stop signing guys like Park (as useful as they can be) two weeks before training camp.
There were plenty of chances for Tangradi to get a legitimate chance this year. Shero built in pretty close to a perfect amount of depth imo. Tangradi isn't a guy that needed a roster spot held for him coming into last year. But he should have been given a real chance when the roster spots opened up from injuries.

Ogrezilla is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-26-2012, 12:31 PM
  #340
UnderratedBrooks44
Registered User
 
UnderratedBrooks44's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Miranda's house
Posts: 13,224
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by MtlPenFan View Post

Before I'm done, let's just remember one thing about Tangradi. He's not a blue chipper and he was essentially a throw in for Ryan ****ing Whitney. We've had top 5 picks over the years fade into obscurity around the league and our Tangradi love has more to do with a lack of options right now rather than what he actually does on the ice. The last few games, I'll admit he looked like a really nice player that may yet have a future here, but let's not get that excited. Even Asham produced SOME scoring while seeing limited ice time, while Tangradi did very little with whatever limited time he saw.

And let's not let our GM off the hook entirely here. If he wants some kids to play, he needs to stop signing guys like Park (as useful as they can be) two weeks before training camp.
14 pages in (god help me), some sanity.

As far as the GM, I don't have a problem with his policy so far. Everyone liked our D going into the season so people can't flip flop now and whine about Despres, etc. not getting enough games. Plus we had a full D corps of NHLers and Despres and company got playing time when guys were hurt, so I don't know where the *****ing is coming from.

As far as the forwards, Vitale got his chance and Park produced better than any other 4th liner we had. He signs guys like that because there simply wasn't anyone better for that role. Vitale, Asham, Park, and now to a lesser extent Adams, were all better role players than anyone below them on the totem pole when the season started.

UnderratedBrooks44 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-26-2012, 01:07 PM
  #341
Tender Rip
#Haz supa line mates
 
Tender Rip's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Shanghai, China
Posts: 12,865
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by UnderratedBrooks44 View Post
Everyone liked our D going into the season

Tender Rip is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-26-2012, 01:13 PM
  #342
Ogrezilla
Nerf Herder
 
Ogrezilla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Pittsburgh
Posts: 35,451
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tender Rip View Post
even if you didn't like it, nobody thought it would be as bad as it was. there really is no good reason for it to be as bad as it was this year; at least form a personnel standpoint.

Ogrezilla is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-26-2012, 02:24 PM
  #343
Malkin4Top6Wingerz
Can you like, shutup
 
Malkin4Top6Wingerz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Country: United States
Posts: 4,963
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by MtlPenFan View Post
As for the development of players, I think it's really self serving to point out the supposed regression of a few players and put the blame squarely on the staff, while the improvement of others conveniently gets overlooked. For every step back a certain player has taken, I can point to another who's taken one forward. It's a convenient game to play regardless of which side you're on.
Your entire post is dead on, but I want to highlight this for KIRK. When you blame the coach for a player regressing in a particular area but give no credit at all to them when players improve it comes across as having an agenda. It certainly doesn't help his case that every post I see from him directly or indirectly blames Bylsma for one thing or another, usually with little to no tangible evidence that he is at fault.

I also agree that Staal looks worse defensively to some because his offensive role has increased and he's taking more chances. I don't see that as anything but a positive going forward. This version of Staal is much more valuable than the one of years past.

Quote:
As for him killing penalties? I mean come on. This is just a philosophical difference, but I cringe every time I see a top end player on the PK getting a puck off the foot. That's what you have your inexpensive pawns for. Regardless, this is the second time Geno's won a scoring championship and I don't see how "trusting" him on the PK is somehow going to improve that. Playing hockey in Magnitogorsk is not playing hockey in the NHL.
Me and you both know the way KIRK operates. Everything is always a slight against Malkin. Never mind that the PK had been dominant in the regular season two years in a row, it's imperative that the scoring champ gets an opportunity to kill penalties, otherwise his defensive game will deteriorate and he'll be the shell of the player he used to be, or something.

Malkin4Top6Wingerz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-26-2012, 03:07 PM
  #344
MtlPenFan
Registered User
 
MtlPenFan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 12,252
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Malkin4Top6Wingerz View Post
Your entire post is dead on, but I want to highlight this for KIRK. When you blame the coach for a player regressing in a particular area but give no credit at all to them when players improve it comes across as having an agenda. It certainly doesn't help his case that every post I see from him directly or indirectly blames Bylsma for one thing or another, usually with little to no tangible evidence that he is at fault.

I also agree that Staal looks worse defensively to some because his offensive role has increased and he's taking more chances. I don't see that as anything but a positive going forward. This version of Staal is much more valuable than the one of years past.



Me and you both know the way KIRK operates. Everything is always a slight against Malkin. Never mind that the PK had been dominant in the regular season two years in a row, it's imperative that the scoring champ gets an opportunity to kill penalties, otherwise his defensive game will deteriorate and he'll be the shell of the player he used to be, or something.
How many players have even really regressed when you think about it? For every one you can name, I can name you two that have improved vastly. I just don't want to hear about Martin, who looked terrible in the playoffs right before we signed him.

If Staal's regressed in any real tangible way, I hope none of the other GM's have noticed it. I don't think they have because by the sound of it, they're all ready to toss a boatload of money at him.

Again, I thought Geno's shortcomings the past two years before this one were already established: Injuries, lack of surrounding talent, and most importantly by his own admission and the admission of those close to him, a lack of work ethic during the off-season. I don't care what he was doing as an 18 year old in Russia in an INFERIOR league against inferior talent and how good he was defensively. I'd rather he work on keeping his cool when things don't go his way rather than covering a shooting lane while killing penalties.

MtlPenFan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-26-2012, 03:21 PM
  #345
UnderratedBrooks44
Registered User
 
UnderratedBrooks44's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Miranda's house
Posts: 13,224
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tender Rip View Post
Sure there were some of us that never bought into the Martin hype, but he was still a capable top 4 NHL defenseman.

Back in October:

Letang-No complaints

Orpik-Not perfect but a solid, physical Dman.

Martin-Liked by many, but some thought he was overrated and overpaid. I don't think anyone thought he was useless though.

Michalek-Another not so physical Dman but generally well-liked.

Niskanen-Myself and others wanted him dealt but he came along and I don't think anyone didn't like him.

Engelland-Fan favorite across the entire fanbase.

Lovejoy-Vanilla Dman no one had a problem being our 7th guy.

That's pretty much my interpretation of the consensus of our D corps to start this past season (more or less of course). Unless I'm way off base somewhere I don't know how anyone is going back now and saying we should've played a rookie for 40+ games.

UnderratedBrooks44 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-26-2012, 03:35 PM
  #346
Mr Jiggyfly
Registered User
 
Mr Jiggyfly's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 17,264
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by MtlPenFan View Post
Before I'm done, let's just remember one thing about Tangradi. He's not a blue chipper and he was essentially a throw in for Ryan ****ing Whitney. We've had top 5 picks over the years fade into obscurity around the league and our Tangradi love has more to do with a lack of options right now rather than what he actually does on the ice. The last few games, I'll admit he looked like a really nice player that may yet have a future here, but let's not get that excited. Even Asham produced SOME scoring while seeing limited ice time, while Tangradi did very little with whatever limited time he saw.

And let's not let our GM off the hook entirely here. If he wants some kids to play, he needs to stop signing guys like Park (as useful as they can be) two weeks before training camp.
Well, you don't generally draft a guy in the top 5 and are happy if he becomes a third liner. With Tangradi, that isn't a bad thing, even though the atrocious lack of fwd depth on the farm puts way too much hope riding on him becoming a top 6 guy.

One of the very first posts I made about Tangradi 3 yrs ago was that he the look of a guy who could be a top 6 winger and I said he was the most talented fwd I saw come through the farm in some time, then warned about the dearth of fwd talent in the system over the last dozen years. I then said he could end up being a big bodied third liner as well. People tend to read the first part and completely ignore the "third line" projection.

They end up reading: "Tangradi is going to be Kevin Stevens!"

Now he still has that same look to me, but I get the sense people will be disappointed if he is only a third liner.

Unfortunately, we still have no idea yet what he is capable of at this level and people can place the blame on Tangradi for not producing magic with 6 random shifts a game, Shero for building depth, but in the end DB had a plethora of chances to play Tangradi and chose not to. How anyone can ignore that is beyond me.

Mr Jiggyfly is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-26-2012, 06:22 PM
  #347
froods
Millerrrrrrr!!!
 
froods's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Buffalo, NY
Country: United States
Posts: 3,574
vCash: 500
I am calling it. I bet Martin has a rebound year. I don't know if it will be in Pittsburgh or not, but I bet he is really, really good.

froods is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-26-2012, 11:45 PM
  #348
Tender Rip
#Haz supa line mates
 
Tender Rip's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Shanghai, China
Posts: 12,865
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ogrezilla View Post
even if you didn't like it, nobody thought it would be as bad as it was. there really is no good reason for it to be as bad as it was this year; at least form a personnel standpoint.
Agreed. I am just pointing out, that this was exactly what some of us said in advance. That despite the individual quality of the players, they didn't match very well. Not as pairings, not for the PP, and not for the kind of hockey Bylsma wants to play. What then made it worse than could have been imagined was how the solidity of 10/11 fell apart as did the performance level of our top4 minus Letang - and then in the playoffs even the otherwise stellar PK fell apart (again, just like against Tampa the year before).

More so system/coaching IMO, but also certainly inherent flaws in the pairings/blend of skills available.

Tender Rip is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-27-2012, 12:35 AM
  #349
TravisUlrich
Eternal Optimist
 
TravisUlrich's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Thunder Bay, Ontario
Country: Canada
Posts: 12,892
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by MtlPenFan View Post
Here's my opinion for what it's worth:

I think Staal's abilities defensively have been a little overrated for a while. Whatever "shut down" role success he's had over the years, whether under MT or DB have had more to do with his line's propensity (Whether it was the TK/Ruutu or TK/Cooke line) of spending a ton of time cycling in the offensive zone and essentially playing keep away from whichever line he's put out against. Don't get me wrong, he's solid down low and does his job well, but I think the defensive stalwart label was placed on him because of his PK abilities as well as all his shorties in his rookie year, and since then the reputation kind of stuck.

As for the development of players, I think it's really self serving to point out the supposed regression of a few players and put the blame squarely on the staff, while the improvement of others conveniently gets overlooked. For every step back a certain player has taken, I can point to another who's taken one forward. It's a convenient game to play regardless of which side you're on.

And Geno? I was angry at Bylsma for stubbornly throwing him out there against Couturier after things started going south in game two. While a 19 year old against Geno shouldn't have worked, it was, and Bylsma should have finally conceded and gotten away from that matchup. However, it really, really irks me when I hear Geno saying stuff out loud about Couturier like "He was playing me too close". You're a regular season and playoff MVP, and you're the one who should be tormenting a teenager, not the other way around.

As for him killing penalties? I mean come on. This is just a philosophical difference, but I cringe every time I see a top end player on the PK getting a puck off the foot. That's what you have your inexpensive pawns for. Regardless, this is the second time Geno's won a scoring championship and I don't see how "trusting" him on the PK is somehow going to improve that. Playing hockey in Magnitogorsk is not playing hockey in the NHL.

Before I'm done, let's just remember one thing about Tangradi. He's not a blue chipper and he was essentially a throw in for Ryan ****ing Whitney. We've had top 5 picks over the years fade into obscurity around the league and our Tangradi love has more to do with a lack of options right now rather than what he actually does on the ice. The last few games, I'll admit he looked like a really nice player that may yet have a future here, but let's not get that excited. Even Asham produced SOME scoring while seeing limited ice time, while Tangradi did very little with whatever limited time he saw.

And let's not let our GM off the hook entirely here. If he wants some kids to play, he needs to stop signing guys like Park (as useful as they can be) two weeks before training camp.
Good stuff. On Staal, what he does defensively and on the PK isn't special. It's solid, but when he was out last season we had the #1 PK without him. What he did offensively this season was pretty special. I'm hoping there's a fit for Crosby, Malkin, and Staal all in the top 6. Whether that's Staal on either Crosby's or Malkin's wing, or Malkin on Staal's or Crosby's wing. Then, from the little I've seen of Dustin Jeffrey, he really looks like he could be a very good third line centre.

On Eric Tangradi, I'm seeing what you're seeing. It's possible that he's still very raw but at 23, he better start turning a corner soon. People will point at Tangradi not getting prime ice time but when you've got 1 goal and 4 assists in 40 NHL games, the fault does not lie on your coach. It's not like Bylsma is holding him back from putting up a 20-goal season.

TravisUlrich is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-27-2012, 12:48 AM
  #350
TravisUlrich
Eternal Optimist
 
TravisUlrich's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Thunder Bay, Ontario
Country: Canada
Posts: 12,892
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by froods View Post
I am calling it. I bet Martin has a rebound year. I don't know if it will be in Pittsburgh or not, but I bet he is really, really good.
I'd be lying if I didn't admit this is a worry of mine if we trade him. Although if we trade him because we were able to sign Suter, then it wouldn't matter either way.

TravisUlrich is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:57 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2015 All Rights Reserved.