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ATD2012 Final: Ak Bars Kazan vs. Inglewood Jacks

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Old
05-23-2012, 08:19 AM
  #51
BraveCanadian
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
But again this is an absolutely horrible use of a stat with absolutely no context associated with it. Look at how many players on this list had their primes after 1995, when scoring started to really drop and parity between the best teams and the worst started to increase.
Says the guy who routinely massages data to fit the picture he'd like...

If it is a horrible stat then why are people (including you) using it as evidence of Gretzky's defensive game here?


Quote:
In terms of adjusted +/-, which actually contextualizes all these things (maybe not perfectly, but much better than raw stats) (and which is actually the basis of the above argument you are quoting, not not raw +/-), Jagr is +504 to Gretzky's +402. (in their 8 year primes, gretzky wins +349 to +336, in almost the exact same adjusted GP.)

Yes, it is arguable that Gretzky and Jagr had about the same positive impact on team goal differential at their best. Gretzky did it by being 100-20 = 80 and Jagr did it by being 90-10 = 80 but it appears that the net (even strength regular season) result was similar.

Everyone can see that Gretzky was considerably better than Jagr offensively (and pretty much everyone else as well), but also, he got scored on a ton, and Jagr didn't.
Nonsense.

Gretzky is 100-20 and is responsible for more goals against than the player who is 90-10. Ok.

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Then you have nothing to say, because those posts said nothing useful.
They said exactly what he meant them to say.

Goals against by itself doesn't say squat about the individual. Remember the context you were referring to above? Look for some.

Quote:
You think Grant Fuhr was amazing, you think Paul Coffey wasn't nearly as bad as a lot of people insist he was, it's well known that Jari Kurri was one of the greatest defensive forwards of his time, the next four more important Oilers' defensemen of the 1980s were well-known defensive stalwarts, yet Gretzky had a ****load of goals scored against him when he was on the ice and it's blasphemous to suggest it may have had something to do with him. This doesn't add up, bro.
Grant Fuhr was amazing, and Paul Coffey wasn't nearly as bad as people insist. That is true.

If Jari Kurri is one of the best defensive forwards of all time and primarily played with Gretzky.. how is it that Gretzky has more goals against but also murdered Kurri's plus minus?

Something doesn't add up there, bro.

It is also true that the Oilers didn't worry too much about clamping down in the regular season. See? Context. And the later on for Gretzky, the Kings didn't have the capability even if they had wanted to. Gretzky logged a ton of icetime for teams that were pretty easygoing on the defense in the regular season.


Last edited by BraveCanadian: 05-23-2012 at 08:24 AM.
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05-23-2012, 12:09 PM
  #52
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Jagr picks up a lot of ground on Gretzky if you 1. Remove shorthanded pluses and minuses. Both had the latter, but only Gretzky had a ton of the former. (But remember to give him credit for them as a penalty killer!) 2. Adjust for scoring level, which was a lot higher in Gretzky's prime.

These two adjustments are pretty straightforward and bring Jagr and Gretzky almost even for their career. I have Jagr at an adjusted +454 and Gretzky at adjusted +469 at this point. (70s or anyone else looking at the sheet with the numbers, I'm quoting EV+/- here.)

Further team adjustments are less straightforward. But, making a subjective comparison, I think you could argue that Gretzky had better goalies, better d-men and a better regular linemate than Jagr.

The fact that the Oilers didn't really care about regular season D definitely affects this as well. Hard to say how much. The Contrarian Goaltender had a post showing that Grant Fuhr's save percentage dropped about 20 points in the second half of the regular season as compared to the first half. If that's a true reflection of the team slacking off defensively and looking to get their stats in the second half, their GA might be 10% higher over a full season than it "should" have been.

Of course Jagr's Pens didn't always play D either. Maybe the main difference is that the Oilers played D in the playoffs.

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Old
05-23-2012, 03:59 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I was showing that the "Gretzky had more goals scored against him than any player in history" line is misleading. *Nothing more, nothing less
Oh, ok, so this started when you were pointing out that something nik never said, was misleading...

He did say that Gretzky "has the highest total ESGA in history" though.

Quote:
I don't have spreadsheets in front of me, but I know Gretzky is one of the more prolific penalty killers of all time
a) he got as high on that list as he did by compiling PK time, and, as overpass noted, he helped his team's GF/GA on the PK by scoring SHP. The chart you're looking at is a combination of compiled usage and team results. His actual career PK% in overpass' numbers is 31% which is very good for a forward but obviously plenty of forwards killed more than that, and were more "prolific" on the PK.

Messier, Carbonneau and Brind'Amour run away with that stat, and they're just 9th, 12th, and not present on the list you posted.


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If Jagr is a 90 offensively, Gretzky is a lot higher than 100
Your nitpicking is getting us nowhere. Surely you had to know that those numbers were made up for illustrative purposes...

Quote:
Why should I bother adjusting plus minus for era when he initial claim was not adjusting goals against for era?

You're right that comparing raw plus minuses is stupid.*
so then when you said that Gretzky's +/- murders Jagr's, you were feigning ignorance?

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Originally Posted by BraveCanadian View Post
Says the guy who routinely massages data to fit the picture he'd like...
your ad hominem attacks say more about you than me.

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If it is a horrible stat then why are people (including you) using it as evidence of Gretzky's defensive game here?
no one is! I said that "career goals against" was a horrible stat and we all agree there.

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Nonsense.

Gretzky is 100-20 and is responsible for more goals against than the player who is 90-10. Ok.
no idea what your point is...

Quote:
They said exactly what he meant them to say.

Goals against by itself doesn't say squat about the individual. Remember the context you were referring to above? Look for some.
Right, it could also say something about all the other players on the ice... now, about those guys....

Quote:
Grant Fuhr was amazing, and Paul Coffey wasn't nearly as bad as people insist. That is true.

If Jari Kurri is one of the best defensive forwards of all time and primarily played with Gretzky.. how is it that Gretzky has more goals against but also murdered Kurri's plus minus?
Uh, how about because +/- measures both pluses and minuses, and Gretzky was obviously a "net positive" player? (and no one ever said he wasn't)

Kurri undoubtedly had some defensive assignments as well, independent of Gretzky. (obviously, otherwise their +/- would be identical) - and although he was clearly a "net positive" player he wasn't to the same degree as Gretzky, so is the answer to your silly question really that difficult?

Quote:
It is also true that the Oilers didn't worry too much about clamping down in the regular season. See? Context. And the later on for Gretzky, the Kings didn't have the capability even if they had wanted to. Gretzky logged a ton of icetime for teams that were pretty easygoing on the defense in the regular season.
Right, he had an excellent support system in place, coupled with the fact that he was able to outscore his opponents with ease. When the first thing changed in 1998 and then the second part changed not too long afterwards, his defensive record went from bad to abysmal.


Last edited by seventieslord: 05-23-2012 at 05:10 PM.
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Old
05-23-2012, 04:05 PM
  #54
TheDevilMadeMe
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Where is the list of the most ESGA is history?

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Old
05-23-2012, 04:07 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by overpass View Post
Jagr picks up a lot of ground on Gretzky if you 1. Remove shorthanded pluses and minuses. Both had the latter, but only Gretzky had a ton of the former. (But remember to give him credit for them as a penalty killer!) 2. Adjust for scoring level, which was a lot higher in Gretzky's prime.

These two adjustments are pretty straightforward and bring Jagr and Gretzky almost even for their career. I have Jagr at an adjusted +454 and Gretzky at adjusted +469 at this point. (70s or anyone else looking at the sheet with the numbers, I'm quoting EV+/- here.)

Further team adjustments are less straightforward. But, making a subjective comparison, I think you could argue that Gretzky had better goalies, better d-men and a better regular linemate than Jagr.

The fact that the Oilers didn't really care about regular season D definitely affects this as well. Hard to say how much. The Contrarian Goaltender had a post showing that Grant Fuhr's save percentage dropped about 20 points in the second half of the regular season as compared to the first half. If that's a true reflection of the team slacking off defensively and looking to get their stats in the second half, their GA might be 10% higher over a full season than it "should" have been.

Of course Jagr's Pens didn't always play D either. Maybe the main difference is that the Oilers played D in the playoffs.
That's fascinating. TCG does pretty good work now when the subjects of Brodeur and Hasek aren't involved. Not only does it fit the narrative of the Oilers focusing on having fun and padding the stats when the games didn't matter, but it also fits the commonly held perception of Fuhr that he didn't give a crap about his personal stats when nothing was on the line.

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05-23-2012, 04:32 PM
  #56
BraveCanadian
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
That's fascinating. TCG does pretty good work now when the subjects of Brodeur and Hasek aren't involved. Not only does it fit the narrative of the Oilers focusing on having fun and padding the stats when the games didn't matter, but it also fits the commonly held perception of Fuhr that he didn't give a crap about his personal stats when nothing was on the line.
It is referenced in my profile of Fuhr from this year:

http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...9&postcount=72

Here is the link to his post: http://brodeurisafraud.blogspot.ca/2...nd-effort.html

Summaries from the post:

Fuhr:
Oct-Jan: 4876 SA, .887
Feb-Apr: 2518 SA, .875
Playoffs: 2268 SA, .899


Andy Moog, 1983-84 to 1987-88:
Oct-Jan: 3363 SA, .890
Feb-Apr: 1572 SA, .876
Playoffs: 343 SA, .866

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05-23-2012, 04:36 PM
  #57
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Well, the discussion deteriorated into pointlessness pretty quickly lol

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05-23-2012, 04:45 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
Kurri undoubtedly had some defensive assignments as well, independent of Gretzky. (obviously, otherwise their +/- would be identical) - and although he was clearly a "net positive" player he wasn't to the same degree as Gretzky, so is the answer to your silly question really that difficult?
Someone who watched them more often than me might know better, but I don't remember Kurri being used in that way at all.

When the Oilers had someone shadowing people I remember it being Tikkanen because he drove people insane.

As to your point, if one of the best defensive forwards of all time wasn't a net positive player to the same degree as Gretzky then why are we even having this discussion?

It basically means that separating the game into offense and defense is meaningless in this case because Gretzky was still more effective than a 70 goal scorer who was by your own admission one of the best defensive forwards ever.

In other words, he was totally dominating.

The major reason his +/- outstrips Kurri is because Gretzky, not Kurri, got the extra assignments. He was double shifted a ton in the early days and continued to outscore the opposition without his "support system".


Quote:
Right, he had an excellent support system in place, coupled with the fact that he was able to outscore his opponents with ease. When the first thing changed in 1998 and then the second part changed not too long afterwards, his defensive record went from bad to abysmal.
I really wish they had takeaway / interception stats from Gretzky's heyday.. I can't believe how easily you believe your numbers 30 years later over the opinions of people watching it happen and paid to make it happen.

Especially when we're talking about simple information like +/- and GF and GA that was available at the time.

It reeks of hubris.

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05-23-2012, 05:18 PM
  #59
seventieslord
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Originally Posted by BraveCanadian View Post
Someone who watched them more often than me might know better, but I don't remember Kurri being used in that way at all.

When the Oilers had someone shadowing people I remember it being Tikkanen because he drove people insane.
The point is that they weren’t joined at the hip; obviously there were times when they were on the ice without eachother and Gretzky did better on his own then Kurri did – which should surprise no one. I’m only speculating that Kurri got some defensive assignments, given his reputation.

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As to your point, if one of the best defensive forwards of all time wasn't a net positive player to the same degree as Gretzky then why are we even having this discussion?
Because you think that real concerns about gretzky’s defensive ability (nothing more than a component of his overall value) are blasphemous.

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It basically means that separating the game into offense and defense is meaningless in this case because Gretzky was still more effective than a 70 goal scorer who was by your own admission one of the best defensive forwards ever.
OK, but we’re talking about this series.

Nik’s strategy is to do just that – separate offense from defense. If he’s successful Gretzky will be useless. It’s not likely that he’ll be successful though.

Quote:
I really wish they had takeaway / interception stats from Gretzky's heyday.. I can't believe how easily you believe your numbers 30 years later over the opinions of people watching it happen and paid to make it happen.

Especially when we're talking about simple information like +/- and GF and GA that was available at the time.

It reeks of hubris.
I remember tons of Gretzky’s career. He was excellent at interceptions and takeaways (I also remember a lot of blueline swirling), but those are also still just small components of his overall defensive ability. The end results (goals against) matter more, and they don’t look good.

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05-23-2012, 05:43 PM
  #60
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Didn't we conclude on HOH that gretzky may have gotten the toughest defensive assignments in Los Angeles, since they had nobody else who could do that and just hoped Gretzky would outgun the opposition?

Edit: I don't think Gretzky was good defensively either (and in his last few seasons he was definitely very poor), but his usage was pretty unique


Last edited by TheDevilMadeMe: 05-23-2012 at 05:48 PM.
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Old
05-23-2012, 06:17 PM
  #61
seventieslord
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Didn't we conclude on HOH that gretzky may have gotten the toughest defensive assignments in Los Angeles, since they had nobody else who could do that and just hoped Gretzky would outgun the opposition?
I don't recall that, but it wouldn't surprise me.

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05-23-2012, 07:06 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Edit: I don't think Gretzky was good defensively either (and in his last few seasons he was definitely very poor), but his usage was pretty unique
I don't think that anyone here is trying to make the case that Gretzky was a Gilmour or Fedorov, let alone a Carbonneau.. I just think people are discounting him a little too much.

He certainly wasn't winning many battles along the boards or anything like that but he broke up tons of plays with forechecking by anticipating or intercepting breakout passes and likewise broke up tons of plays in the neutral zone by picking pockets on the backcheck.

Gretzky did cheat towards offense a bit (Mario was worse imo), but he did bear down in the playoffs more than usual and also.. why wouldn't he? Offense was a high percentage play for him.

Despite the protestations here, the results simply speak for themselves. You can say he'll get scored on.. fine, but he'll score more on you by the end of the day.

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05-24-2012, 03:37 AM
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I've seen the "Jagr visibly put in very little effort when the puck wasn't on his stick, but his consistently good plus minus shows that his awesome puck possession ability gave him a lot of defensive value" argument quite a lot recently on the HOH board.

So what does Gretzky's plus minus mean?
it shows that gretzky was the top ES scorer in history.

his ESGA was very high, and his ESGF was even higher. both are the highest in history. 1838 ESGA, 2356 ESGF.

coffey is next in ESGA at 1654. i think bourque is next in ESGF at 1986.



i am not sure pnep's numbers are accurate, though. his ESGA and ESGF for several players (gretzky, bourque, robinson) add up to their +/-'s. but that should not happen, b/c +/- includes SH scoring.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
You're right it's a horrible stat which is exactly what I was trying to show.

Nik jr trotted out the lazy "Gretzky got scored on more than any other player in history" argument that I see thrown around on hfboards, (and I can't blame him, I almost used it myself in my leafschat series until I did a search for the other players who were scored on a lot and realized how misleading it was).

The argument kind of loses its luster when you see that
1) Messier and Bourque are 2/3 on the list, with Scott Stevens and Nicklas Lidstrom also placing highly
2) Gretzky's high plus minus shows that he wasn't hurting his team by allowing a lot of goals - because he was helping the team score that much more.
pnep once posted highest career ESGA. may include SH scoring, though.
Quote:
Player -- ESGA -- ESGF
=========================
Gretzky Wayne -- 1838 -- 2356
Coffey Paul -- 1654 -- 1948
Murphy Larry -- 1541 -- 1741
Bourque Ray -- 1458 -- 1986
Messier Mark -- 1455 -- 1662
Francis Ron -- 1454 -- 1453
Babych Dave -- 1422 -- 1199
Stevens Scott -- 1399 -- 1789
Housley Phil -- 1386 -- 1333
Dionne Marcel -- 1368 -- 1396
Salming Borje -- 1356 -- 1531
Robinson Larry -- 1297 -- 2027
Vadnais Carol -- 1281 -- 1219
Yzerman Steve -- 1265 -- 1432
Gartner Mike -- 1236 -- 1303
Ramage Rob -- 1214 -- 1043
Carlyle Randy -- 1208 -- 1073
Hawerchuk Dale -- 1202 -- 1110
Larson Reed -- 1180 -- 1052
Oates Adam -- 1170 -- 1205
Hatcher Kevin -- 1165 -- 1138
Perreault Gilbert -- 1154 -- 1196
MacInnis Al -- 1146 -- 1519
Roberts Gordie -- 1135 -- 1185
Kurri Jari -- 1126 -- 1424
Gilmour Doug -- 1125 -- 1257
Russell Phil -- 1124 -- 1176
Leetch Brian -- 1120 -- 1149
Adams Greg -- 1116 -- 1080
Wilson Doug -- 1109 -- 1162
Chelios Chris -- 1106 -- 1401
Park Brad -- 1098 -- 1456
Nicholls Bernie -- 1094 -- 1056
Ciccarelli Dino -- 1091 -- 1089
Ellett Dave -- 1081 -- 1033
Robitaille Luc -- 1080 -- 1154
Lemieux Mario -- 1072 -- 1205
Murray Bob -- 1072 -- 1085
Verbeek Pat -- 1049 -- 1005
Muller Kirk -- 1044 -- 898
Greschner Ron -- 1043 -- 963
Stastny Peter -- 1041 -- 1029
Esposito Phil -- 1040 -- 1237
Andreychuk Dave -- 1038 -- 1098
Stackhouse Ron -- 1036 -- 1077
Lowe Kevin -- 1033 -- 1285
Sittler Darryl -- 1025 -- 1078
Damphousse Vincent -- 1021 -- 1035
Federko Bernie -- 1019 -- 887
Boldirev Ivan -- 1015 -- 825
Hull Brett -- 1014 -- 1044
i don't see how it is lazy. gretzky was a poor defensive player, and also not great territorially. he was scored on very much at ES, despite being a F and not being a checker.

gretzky is well above coffey, and coffey is well above larry murphy.

messier, the next F on the list, played at the same time and often for the same team, played 269 more games, and had a larger defensive role at ES, but has 383 fewer ESGA.



pnep also posted the highest ESGA's in a season, which would be good for trivia questions.
Quote:
Season....

YEAR -- Franch. -- POS -- Player -- ESGA -- ESGF
============================================
1978 -- NJ -- D -- Owchar Dennis -- 141 -- 80
1990 -- PIT -- D -- Coffey Paul -- 140 -- 115
1981 -- PHO -- D -- Babych Dave -- 139 -- 78
1986 -- TOR -- D -- Nylund Gary -- 137 -- 105
1984 -- PHO -- D -- Babych Dave -- 131 -- 100
1973 -- VAN -- D -- Guevremont Jocelyn -- 130 -- 88
1982 -- PHO -- D -- Babych Dave -- 129 -- 118
1987 -- VAN -- D -- Lidster Doug -- 128 -- 93
1982 -- DET -- D -- Larson Reed -- 128 -- 111
1976 -- NYR -- D -- Vadnais Carol -- 127 -- 111
1986 -- PHO -- D -- Ellett Dave -- 126 -- 88
1980 -- STL -- D -- Lapointe Rick -- 126 -- 102
1984 -- LA -- D -- Hardy Mark -- 125 -- 95
1982 -- DET -- D -- Huber Willie -- 125 -- 109
1982 -- NJ -- D -- Ramage Rob -- 125 -- 78
1981 -- DET -- D -- Larson Reed -- 125 -- 90
1979 -- STL -- D -- Gibbs Barry -- 125 -- 83
1978 -- DAL -- D -- Maxwell Brad -- 125 -- 68
pnep listed owchar for NJ, but that team was still in colorado in '78.


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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
You're getting carried away here. I'm not really commenting on their overall impacts or their values as all time greats. I am using their overall results as indicators to show their defensive records. The truth is Gretzky was bad defensively and awesome offensively. nik's strategy is to keep him out of the offensive zone. It's really questionable whether that will be accomplished, yes, but isn't the outlining of this strategy what brought ringleader of the Gretzky defenders out? Apparently thinking that keeping Gretzky playing poor defense all game, means he's underestimating Gretzky. No, nik's not underestimating Gretzky's defense - he has it just right. it sucks, and if Gretzky spent the majority of the game swirling by the blueline he'd be really ineffective. what nik is underestimating is how easily Gretzky will probably still find the puck on his stick and heading towards the other end, despite his team's best efforts. And once it's there, nothing you and I have said on this topic is relevant.
i am not saying that gretzky will not still get into the offensive zone and score. i think unless gretzky has relatively weak support, he is extremely difficult to stop. the safest way to limit him is to limit his time in the offensive zone.

that is true for any player, but especially for gretzky, imo.


Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
As for nik's strategy, I do think that putting players who can score against Gretzky is a good strategy since you can't really stop him, but you can take advantage of his lack of defense. I'd say the same about Mario.

The ideal center to go against Gretzky IMO is someone who can slow him down as much as possible and score on the counterattack.

The Jagr line can definitely score. Are they good enough defensively? That's the question IMO.
imo, the ideal C against gretzky is someone like nighbor or henri richard. someone who can stay with him, defend very well, but also who can keep possession more than gretzky.

gretzky with possession is almost uniquely dangerous, b/c he could break down a team's D with his playmaking.

but D is certainly not about 1 on 1 (especially not F vs F), and especially not when gretzky is involved. much more important is the whole unit.

for example, russian 5 was a great checking unit, but their puck possession was a very important part of it.




my 1st line is clearly not good enough defensively to stop gretzky.

i would say the questions are whether i can control the neutral zone; whether my 1st unit can maintain possession enough to outscore inglewood's 1st unit; whether my 3rd line can be effective in their shifts against gretzky's line; whether my d-men can control the middle of the defensive zone where most goals are scored; and whether bower can outplay thompson.

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Originally Posted by arrbez View Post
I wrote out like 6 paragraphs last night on my laptop, and it froze on me before I could save it. Second time this has happened to me in this draft, you'd think I'd learn.
similar has happened to me several times before.

Quote:
Anyhow, to touch on a couple things:

I really don't mind the matching of Kazan's first unit against Gretzky, for a few reasons. First, I think my top line is better than the Jagr line both offensively and defensively. The Jagr-Andreychuk combo is pretty poor on the backcheck, and I think that will be an issue. I think Dave Andreychuk is going to be a liability out there. Slow as molasses, no real defensive game to speak of (at least not in his scoring prime), and actually a fairly unimpressive even strength scorer (never higher than 15th in ES goals, and only top-20 three times...so, a little worse than Steve Thomas, for instance). I think Kurri is a very tough matchup for him.
i think your 1st line is de facto weaker defensively, b/c gretzky almost always played a very offensive style which resulted in high GA, and his teammates generally followed his style. i think style of play is more important than individual status. i have noticed i tend to focus on style of play and team aspects more instead of basic player comparisons much more than other GM's.

i don't expect kurri will spend much time covering andreychuk, b/c andreychuk generally played at the net and on the boards. i think andreychuk's size and strength will tend to draw moose johnson to him around the net.


as i did in my previous series, i should also have pointed out that other LW's will also take some shifts in andreychuk's place. andreychuk cannot play 1st line minutes.


Quote:
And while defending Jagr is no easy task, I like the matchup Watson's size and strength gives me against him. Can't stop him completely, but at the very least I have a strong skating defensive player whose massive size and strength should make it tougher for Jagr to bull his way to the net down low. And as I've mentioned before, Rod Brind'Amour will again be seeing some time at LW on that line when the situation warrants. I think he's also a solid match against Jagr, and his famous faceoff ability will obviously be used in key situations.
i may the only GM who doesn't think W vs W matchups are very important, outside of shadowing situations.

Quote:
I like the Cleghorn-Chara pairing a lot, but I'm not sure this type of matchup plays to their strengths, particularly those of Chara. Not that they'll be terrible, but I think you get more out of those two playing against a Howe or Messier than you do against Gretzky. Chara in particular will have to be very careful against the counter-attack, as having to turn and skate with speedy players has been a weak area for him in the past.
i agree that chara's lack of agility is a potential problem, but i think his and cleghorn's ability to control the middle of the defensive zone, where most goals are scored, is important.

gretzky and kurri were unphysical players who were much better in open ice than in traffic. basically i want to control the middle, prevent cross ice passes, and give up shots primarily from the perimeter.




another point i want to make is that d-men are generally much more important defensive players than F's, and cleghorn and chara are a better pairing than leetch and johnson.

although he was good defensively, leetch was never an elite defensive player, and became possibly below average later in his career. johnson was an elite defensive player, but relied on a very long stick which would be illegal under modern rules. i am not sure how to factor that into his overall value. illegal stick would certainly be useful, but reports of him don't mention his stick much and praise his defensive play.

cleghorn and chara were both elite defensive players. i am not really sure how to compare chara and johnson offensively, but both are decent in ATD considering they were known primarily for D. i don't think cleghorn was better than leetch offensively, but i think he was better defensively and overall.

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05-24-2012, 10:36 AM
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I just realized something!

nik jr vs. Moose Johnson in the finals! I love it.

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05-24-2012, 08:50 PM
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This is a great series and its nice too see Ak bars in the final. just a well-rounded team. Congrats fellas!

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05-25-2012, 04:12 PM
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I think it's time to vote; what do you think?

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05-25-2012, 07:27 PM
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I think it's time to vote; what do you think?
If Nik and Arrbez are done then yes lets vote.

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05-26-2012, 02:24 PM
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I think it's time to vote; what do you think?
It's a holiday weekend here in the US (Monday is Memorial Day), a lot of people may be out of town or busy. I would give them until Tuesday or Wednesday to get their votes in.

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05-26-2012, 03:11 PM
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On second look, nik did specifically say ESGA in the original post. Oops.

I think extending voting until at least Tuesday is a good idea

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05-28-2012, 07:09 PM
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I assume Nik and I don't have to send in votes for ours to be counted in this series.

Best of luck good sir!

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05-29-2012, 07:58 AM
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Are we voting today?

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05-29-2012, 11:09 PM
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I will vote tomorrow if u guys want to wait

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05-30-2012, 01:55 PM
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sent

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05-30-2012, 07:46 PM
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Every time I look at this I picture Guy Carbonneau facing off against Wayne Gretzky...

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05-30-2012, 08:05 PM
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Every time I look at this I picture Guy Carbonneau facing off against Wayne Gretzky...
Yeah, arrbez definitely dodged a bullet there.

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