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Who's a better player: Saku Koivu or Tuomo Ruutu?

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Old
12-17-2004, 02:32 PM
  #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 19bruins19
Thornton certainly owned him in the World Cup of Hockey in the final game.....

Yes, I know Koivu had an injury in the playoffs, but Thornton suffered his injury before the playoffs (against Washington) which threw him off his game. The other series against Montreal, he had a point per game, notching 6 points in 6 games.
I'm sure Thornton's teamates in the World Cup of hockey didin't help either...come on, Canada was stacked...

The fact remains, that when it mattered the most, the last two playoffs series for the Habs vs. the Bruins, Koivu came out on top, once after he came back from cancer, and the other when Koivu had cracked ribs and cartilage damage...

Not taking away anyting from Thornton, he's a great player, but he could learn a few things from Koivu's leadership and professionalism, that's just my opinion, I think Big Joe's a great player, and when he wants to be, he can be the best, but he's got alot of growing up to do, it seems that afte the last WC, he's starting to realise that, and that can't be nothing but good news for Bruins fans

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12-17-2004, 02:35 PM
  #27
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I think it's incredibly misguided to think that Zednik would not score 20+ goals with any other player, as it was politely put. Koivu is good, but great? Everyone loved the cancer story, and even I admire his tencity and ability to fight back from such advirsity. But he does not make this team.

On the otherhand neither does Ruutu. As an outside observer, I would have to say right now Koivu's contributions make him a more valuable player to his team than Ruutu. But we are comparing apples to oranges. They play different styles and are bothe playing onder different coaching strategies. If Ruutu was playing in a more open system he would have put up more points.

I seriously doubt if Koivu would put up 'elite' numbers with any linemate. He is not an Oats who significantly improves the points of thise around him either.

I love Koivu, but I'd take Ruutu anyday.

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12-17-2004, 02:38 PM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 417 TO MTL
I'm sure Thornton's teamates in the World Cup of hockey didin't help either...come on, Canada was stacked...

The fact remains, that when it mattered the most, the last two playoffs series for the Habs vs. the Bruins, Koivu came out on top, once after he came back from cancer, and the other when Koivu had cracked ribs and cartilage damage...

Not taking away anyting from Thornton, he's a great player, but he could learn a few things from Koivu's leadership and professionalism, that's just my opinion, I think Big Joe's a great player, and when he wants to be, he can be the best, but he's got alot of growing up to do, it seems that afte the last WC, he's starting to realise that, and that can't be nothing but good news for Bruins fans

Nothing for me to disagree with here.

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12-17-2004, 02:38 PM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by briman
I think it's incredibly misguided to think that Zednik would not score 20+ goals with any other player, as it was politely put. Koivu is good, but great? Everyone loved the cancer story, and even I admire his tencity and ability to fight back from such advirsity. But he does not make this team.

On the otherhand neither does Ruutu. As an outside observer, I would have to say right now Koivu's contributions make him a more valuable player to his team than Ruutu. But we are comparing apples to oranges. They play different styles and are bothe playing onder different coaching strategies. If Ruutu was playing in a more open system he would have put up more points.

I seriously doubt if Koivu would put up 'elite' numbers with any linemate. He is not an Oats who significantly improves the points of thise around him either.

I love Koivu, but I'd take Ruutu anyday.
So if Ruutu was playing in a more open system, he'd put up more points, right?

same can be said for Koivu, Koivu, IMO, is a great player, not because of the amount of points he's able to put up, it's everything he brings to the table, while he may just seem like an above average player to most, he's the heart and soul of the Habs, and only a habs fan could understand that

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12-17-2004, 02:54 PM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 417 TO MTL
So if Ruutu was playing in a more open system, he'd put up more points, right?

same can be said for Koivu, Koivu, IMO, is a great player, not because of the amount of points he's able to put up, it's everything he brings to the table, while he may just seem like an above average player to most, he's the heart and soul of the Habs, and only a habs fan could understand that

So your implying that if Koivu was traded he would also be the heart and soul of that team because of all the other intangibles that he brings. Give me a break. He's good, and he's a great fit on the Canadians. However, there is no way he'd have as much impact on another team where his temates did not go through his advirsity with him.

I'd still take Ruutu.

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12-17-2004, 03:13 PM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by briman
So your implying that if Koivu was traded he would also be the heart and soul of that team because of all the other intangibles that he brings. Give me a break. He's good, and he's a great fit on the Canadians. However, there is no way he'd have as much impact on another team where his temates did not go through his advirsity with him.

I'd still take Ruutu.
You obviously didn't read what I wrote, i'll try it again...

While koivu might seem like an average player to most, he's much more valuable to the Habs, he's their heart and soul...

I don't know where you got this "if koivu was traded" I never implied that, and I don't know how you came to that conclusion, either way, I don't want to discuss this with you, I doubt you anything about Koivu, so let's leave it at that

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12-17-2004, 03:16 PM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 19bruins19
Then it doesn't matter if he has an elite winger or Zednik. Plus, Zednik is better than Knuble and look what Knuble did. A FOURTH liner gett second line numbers.
Well what about Perreault and Sundstrom? They probably wouldn't even make the third line on most teams but they both were scoring a goal per game playing with Saku.

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12-17-2004, 03:19 PM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by briman
I think it's incredibly misguided to think that Zednik would not score 20+ goals with any other player, as it was politely put. Koivu is good, but great? Everyone loved the cancer story, and even I admire his tencity and ability to fight back from such advirsity. But he does not make this team.
I don't know if you paid attention to the Habs last season, but when Zednik was moved to the second line, he disappeared. He didn't score for a long time and was pretty useless on the ice. And Ribeiro isn't a bad centre either.

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12-17-2004, 03:32 PM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 417 TO MTL
You obviously didn't read what I wrote, i'll try it again...

While koivu might seem like an average player to most, he's much more valuable to the Habs, he's their heart and soul...

I don't know where you got this "if koivu was traded" I never implied that, and I don't know how you came to that conclusion, either way, I don't want to discuss this with you, I doubt you anything about Koivu, so let's leave it at that

I realize the confusion. And i guess we'll be leaving it as a mute point.

However, if a player is the heart and soul of a team his prowess should be able to follow him regardless of where he is playing.

In referance to Zednik dissapearing after being moved to Ribeiro's line. Didn't the whole team slump. Maybe I'm wrong. Anyways, Zednik is prone to being a streaky player. The arguement is not about the playmaking ability of Zednik. It's about Koivu being the 'playmaker' who keeps the Canadians afloat. In my opinion Koivu is an inspirational leader of this team, but that is as far as his abilities go.

I still notice that noone has disagreed over my suggestions that Koivu is not better than Ruutu, so I'll leave off hear unless a better arguement is put forward.

And in referance to "not knowing Koivu" get a life. I'm a fan too, but in no way does either of us actually know him.

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12-17-2004, 03:34 PM
  #35
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Saku is a great player, but I'd rather have Ruutu now and future.

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12-17-2004, 03:38 PM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 19bruins19
You can't say "If Koivu had a great winger". Great centre's are able to pad the stats of their wingers, such as Forsberg, Thornton, etc.
Agreed

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12-17-2004, 03:44 PM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by briman
I realize the confusion. And i guess we'll be leaving it as a mute point.

However, if a player is the heart and soul of a team his prowess should be able to follow him regardless of where he is playing.

In referance to Zednik dissapearing after being moved to Ribeiro's line. Didn't the whole team slump. Maybe I'm wrong. Anyways, Zednik is prone to being a streaky player. The arguement is not about the playmaking ability of Zednik. It's about Koivu being the 'playmaker' who keeps the Canadians afloat. In my opinion Koivu is an inspirational leader of this team, but that is as far as his abilities go.

I still notice that noone has disagreed over my suggestions that Koivu is not better than Ruutu, so I'll leave off hear unless a better arguement is put forward.

And in referance to "not knowing Koivu" get a life. I'm a fan too, but in no way does either of us actually know him.
whatever Koivu is an insirational leader of his team, but that' as far as his abilities go? that's one of the worst statements i've read on this board, and yes I disagree with your statements about Ruutu being better than Koivu, he just came off his rookie season, i'm a huge Ruutu fan, I love the way he plays, he reminds me of Forsberg, so that will give you an idea about what I think of Ruutu, but it's an insult to Koivu to suggest that after 1 year, Ruutu is better than Koivu, he had 1 year in the NHL for crying out loud, no to mention that he didin't start doing anything until halfway through the season, and your ready to say he's better than Koivu after 1/2 a season!!!!that;s why I say you don't know anything about Koivu, I don't mean the person, I mean the player, his abilities, you've already proven that you lack knowledge with that awful statement, his accomplishements, you obviously know nothing about either, players like Koivu, Selanne and Lethinen paved the way for players like Ruutu, i'm sure even he realizes it, maybe it's time you did as well

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12-17-2004, 03:50 PM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FLYLine4LIFE
Agreed
I don't necessarily think that if he had better linemates, he would of been able to do more, like you said, great players make those around him better, and that's exactly what Koivu has done over his career, problem is, he's only been healthy for 2 season in his 9 or 10 year career...

1 of those season he had 45 points in 82 games, as a rookie

the other he had 71 points ( best season) in 82 games, playing with Jan Bulis and Donald Audette mind you, in that same season, Mats Sundin (just using him as an example leafs fans relax!) had 72 points playing mostly with Mogilny, Roberts and/or Renberg...

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12-17-2004, 03:53 PM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 19bruins19
Thornton certainly owned him in the World Cup of Hockey in the final game.....
wow one game says it all. Do you know how many games Saku played since the world cup??? Zero. You know why? He played injured and he's still not fully healed. So let's recap since you need "de te faire mettre du plomb dans tÍte". Saku was injured in the playoffs and wasn't fully healed for the world cup, then he messed hos wrist and still played. So, you watched him play with a wrist and ribs injury for one game and you think that Joe owned him? Now that's stupid. Also, you think that Knuble was a 4th liner??? Well, he wasn't really a 4th liner like you think. He was a very good scorer in college and I always heard that he had a great scoring touch even when he scored 7-8 goals per season. And you know what??? He's second in scoring in the sel this year. Like you said it so well, shut up.

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12-17-2004, 04:03 PM
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Right now it's not even close. Koivu by a mile in all round ability, but Ruutu's upside is likely higher and he should surpass Koivu in the next 3 years IMO.

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12-17-2004, 04:05 PM
  #41
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As a Hawks fan, I'd take Ruutu right now. When Ruutu was playing with scoring line talent (Daze & Arnason) he scored at a PPG, being BY FAR the best player on the ice. That was in his rookie season at 21 YO. I'm not saying that Ruutu is going to be a PPG player throughout his career, but I think he's going to be a much better scorer that Saku, while not being quite the playmaker Koivu is.

I would like to say that I really like Koivu's game, but I think that Ruutu's better goal-scoring potential and physical presence tip the scales in his favor.

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12-17-2004, 04:12 PM
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beukeboom Fan
As a Hawks fan, I'd take Ruutu right now. When Ruutu was playing with scoring line talent (Daze & Arnason) he scored at a PPG, being BY FAR the best player on the ice. That was in his rookie season at 21 YO. I'm not saying that Ruutu is going to be a PPG player throughout his career, but I think he's going to be a much better scorer that Saku, while not being quite the playmaker Koivu is.

I would like to say that I really like Koivu's game, but I think that Ruutu's better goal-scoring potential and physical presence tip the scales in his favor.
Come on people, Ruutu, for how great I think he will become, has had 1/2 a season for god's sake, 1/2 a season!!!!!!!!!!!

Hello, wake up!!!

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12-17-2004, 04:16 PM
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by briman
In my opinion Koivu is an inspirational leader of this team, but that is as far as his abilities go.


One of the dumbest things I've ever heard. Something as stupid as that shouldn't even be said of a Dave Andreychuk.

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12-17-2004, 04:16 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by ax≤+bx+c
wow one game says it all. Do you know how many games Saku played since the world cup??? Zero. You know why? He played injured and he's still not fully healed. So let's recap since you need "de te faire mettre du plomb dans tÍte". Saku was injured in the playoffs and wasn't fully healed for the world cup, then he messed hos wrist and still played. So, you watched him play with a wrist and ribs injury for one game and you think that Joe owned him? Now that's stupid. Also, you think that Knuble was a 4th liner??? Well, he wasn't really a 4th liner like you think. He was a very good scorer in college and I always heard that he had a great scoring touch even when he scored 7-8 goals per season. And you know what??? He's second in scoring in the sel this year. Like you said it so well, shut up.
hmmm, seems tome you missed the emoticon I had.

Knuble was a fourth line before Samsonov had a wrist injury and he was moved up. He was a healthy scratch in some games before Samsonov's injury.

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12-17-2004, 04:19 PM
  #45
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Koivu ...

He's so underrated.He played a complete year with Zednik and He had 71 points.That's pretty good.Zednik isn't a all-star winger.I hope the habs will sign Kovy because Koivu will finally have a elite winger with him.He's gonna put up a lot of points while playing with Kovy.We just saw that in the playoffs.Koivu has grit , leadership , great skills , great vision.He just doesn't have size.

Rutuu is starting to adjust.He had a great season last year.Koivu is better now.Ruutu has a lot of potential though.He'll maybe become better then captain courage in like two years.Ruutu has the potential to become a pretty complete player.

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12-17-2004, 05:06 PM
  #46
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Originally Posted by Poochie_D
give koivu an elite winger and he'll be top 10 in scoring in the league

Uhm....no

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12-17-2004, 05:16 PM
  #47
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As much potential as Tuomo Ruutu possesses, he has actually been behind Koivu in development throughout his career...up until now. Ruutu will soon turn 22, the age when Koivu's progress as a player pretty much crashed and burned. I bet Tuomo will have less troubles to deal with than Saku, and *might* develop into a better NHLer than Saku has ever been, but as of right now a healthy Koivu (although a rare phenomenon) is lightyears ahead of a healthy Ruutu.

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12-17-2004, 05:21 PM
  #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sampe
As much potential as Tuomo Ruutu possesses, he has actually been behind Koivu in development throughout his career...up until now. Ruutu will soon turn 22, the age when Koivu's progress as a player pretty much crashed and burned. I bet Tuomo will have less troubles to deal with than Saku, and *might* develop into a better NHLer than Saku has ever been, but as of right now a healthy Koivu (although a rare phenomenon) is lightyears ahead of a healthy Ruutu.

My thoughts exactly

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12-17-2004, 05:33 PM
  #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 19bruins19
Thornton certainly owned him in the World Cup of Hockey in the final game.....

Yes, I know Koivu had an injury in the playoffs, but Thornton suffered his injury before the playoffs (against Washington) which threw him off his game. The other series against Montreal, he had a point per game, notching 6 points in 6 games.
Koivu was still coming back from cancer and outperformed Thornton then too.

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12-17-2004, 05:38 PM
  #50
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Now Ruutu and even later Ruutu.

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