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Who's a better player: Saku Koivu or Tuomo Ruutu?

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Old
12-17-2004, 05:40 PM
  #51
BuppY
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right now Koivu but in the future Ruutu, he has a lot of potential!!

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Old
12-17-2004, 05:58 PM
  #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 417 TO MTL
You lost credibility on this post when you said Saku dosen't bring a physical presence, you obviously have never seen him play, you probably think that because he's small and europeean, he's soft, which couldn't be further from the truth, the reason he's so injury prone is because he's so rambuctious on the ice, he throws his weight around and takes on bigger players all the time, i've seen him layout a few players over his career, if Koivu could learn to pick his spots a bit better, he wouldn't be injured as much, he's a very tough player for his size, aks fans from the Bruins if Koivu is physical, i think even they will tell you that he dosen't back down from anyone!
I didn't say he wasn't physical.. I said he doesn't bring the physical presence you want to see from a 1st line center, like a Thornton, Forsberg, Sundin, etc. He's a tough player for his SIZE which is small...

S L

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Old
12-17-2004, 06:02 PM
  #53
Vlad The Impaler
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Originally Posted by Poochie_D
errrr... you honestly have no idea what ur talking about. this guy has played with 3rd liners most of his carreer.
That is a lie.

But I am the one who doesn't know what I am talking about, right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Poochie_D
his highest point total ( 71 points ) had him playing with zednik and bulis all year. don't dare tell me that if you replaced bulis with kovalev he couldnt easily hit 80 - 85 pts.
He probably wouldn't. There, I have said it.

It certainly wouldn't be easy for him, unless Kovalev scored 60 goals because Saku can't score for ****. Even if Kovalev could score 60 goals, Saku would need to be healthy, which he rarely is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Poochie_D
saku brings intangibles to the team
Yes, intangibles like the ability to hurt his shoulder taking a faceoff. Or what kind of intangibles are you talking about? He's a good playmaker, poor scorer with grit but no ability to use it in a way to dominate.

What kind of intangibles does he bring that put him over the top? What's wrong with what I said?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Poochie_D
ya and the one elite winger theory has been proven in the playoffs when both saku and alex were leading the league in points after round 1.
Any fanboy can prove a lot of whacky theories with a selectively small sample. The whole of his career doesn't tell the story this way.

Koivu is the number 1 case in this league of a "if" player. If this, if that, he would have done this or that...

He's just a good player who was overpaid most of his career and miraculously continues to be overrated and seen as a "future" guy. You'd swear people are talking about a 20 years old when it's a 30 years old we are discussing.

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Old
12-17-2004, 06:03 PM
  #54
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I hope nobody here wants to try to make the argument that Koivu is better than Sundin...


S L

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Old
12-17-2004, 06:17 PM
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ax²+bx+c
Sometimes, I really wonder if you watch hockey at all. Seriously...
There's a loooong line of fans like you. Pick a number and wait until the day you make me eat crow. Bring a sleeping bag and make yourself comfortable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ax²+bx+c
By the way, could you explain to me why Saku is always one of the best player on the ice, no matter who he's playing against?
I can't explain something that isn't true, sorry.

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Originally Posted by ax²+bx+c
I'll agree that he has a below-average shot (poor velocity and release) (and he stills manages to score 20 goals and that makes him one of our best goalscorer lol),
He managed it only twice in his career, both times barely (20, 21).

Quote:
Originally Posted by ax²+bx+c
but he's got elite skills in about every other aspect of the game.
I don't know how you define "elite" but I disagree. Pretty much the only skill where he's got close to elite talent is passing.

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Originally Posted by ax²+bx+c
Heck, even if you care to reply, you're wrong all the way about Saku.
Feel free to live in ignorance, then. It won't kill you.

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Originally Posted by ax²+bx+c
I'm asking myself if you even watch him play.
The feeling is mutual.

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Old
12-17-2004, 06:18 PM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Latin
I hope nobody here wants to try to make the argument that Koivu is better than Sundin...
It's been tried before.

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Old
12-17-2004, 06:21 PM
  #57
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Koivu. Like a lot of people have been saying, he's the most underrated center in the league at this moment. He got like 10 points with Zednik and Bulis as wingers if I remember correctly....Bulis!!! lol

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Old
12-17-2004, 06:30 PM
  #58
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I dont care about what everybody says just look at Koivu's playoff record the guy is just clutch during the playoffs. To appriciate him you'd have to follow him everyday just to see how special he is. He's still considered the best player in finland even in front of Kurri and selanne. His situation is a bit like Lindros: where would they be if the werent injured that often , we'll never know.

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Old
12-17-2004, 06:35 PM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jcpenny
To appriciate him you'd have to follow him everyday just to see how special he is. He's still considered the best player in finland even in front of Kurri and selanne. His situation is a bit like Lindros: where would they be if the werent injured that often , we'll never know.
If they weren't injured, Lindros would be miles ahead of Koivu, that's where they would be.

Do you follow Koivu every day, or are you one of those people that has no idea how special Koivu really is?

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Old
12-17-2004, 06:40 PM
  #60
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Last year Koivu was better than Ruutu, and he will be next year as well. But I think when Ruutu hits his prime, he will be a better player than Koivu ever was by a decent margin.

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Old
12-17-2004, 06:49 PM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vlad The Impaler
If they weren't injured, Lindros would be miles ahead of Koivu, that's where they would be.

Do you follow Koivu every day, or are you one of those people that has no idea how special Koivu really is?
I wasnt comparing the players, i was comparing their situation. BTW the year Koivu was leading the NHL in scoring he made me believe he was an elite player by the way he dominated games.

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Old
12-17-2004, 08:35 PM
  #62
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Centers better than Koivu:

Brad Richards
Vincent Lecavalier
Joe Sakic
Peter Forsberg
Mats Sundin
Joe Thorton
Sergei Federov
Mario Lemieux
Mike Modano
Doug Weight

You also may be able to make a case for:
Patrick Marleau
Robert Lang
Scott Gomez
Petr Nedved
Jeremy Roenick
Vaclav Prospal
Oli Jokinen
Jason Allison
Alexei Yashin


.... and these are just off the top of my head. The point is, that not all of the guys in the second category are what I'd call "elite" talents (at their current age, at least), and Koivu isn't leaps and bounds ahead of any of them.

S L

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Old
12-18-2004, 07:32 AM
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vlad The Impaler
There's a loooong line of fans like you. Pick a number and wait until the day you make me eat crow. Bring a sleeping bag and make yourself comfortable.



I can't explain something that isn't true, sorry.



He managed it only twice in his career, both times barely (20, 21).



I don't know how you define "elite" but I disagree. Pretty much the only skill where he's got close to elite talent is passing.



Feel free to live in ignorance, then. It won't kill you.



The feeling is mutual.
Tu dis tellement n'importe quoi...

p.s: crisse que tu te prends pour un autre.

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Old
12-18-2004, 09:44 AM
  #64
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He is not a top 10 center...not even close

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Old
12-18-2004, 10:14 AM
  #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fish on The Sand
Koivu was still coming back from cancer and outperformed Thornton then too.
Wow, people continue to amaze me.

I made the World cup remark because the poster said that Koivu outperformed him in the playoffs, which is true. Yes, Koivu outperformed Thornton in the past, but let's look at it like this. Thornton has not even reached his prime yet, and he already has a 100 point season under his belt.

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Old
12-18-2004, 11:26 AM
  #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 19bruins19
Wow, people continue to amaze me.

I made the World cup remark because the poster said that Koivu outperformed him in the playoffs, which is true. Yes, Koivu outperformed Thornton in the past, but let's look at it like this. Thornton has not even reached his prime yet, and he already has a 100 point season under his belt.
No doubt he's got the skills.

But does he have the heart? I don't know...

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Old
12-18-2004, 12:14 PM
  #67
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Originally Posted by waffledave
No doubt he's got the skills.

But does he have the heart? I don't know...
Thornton? Of course not. He needs to improve in that department.

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Old
12-18-2004, 12:23 PM
  #68
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The best joke in this thread is decerned to Steve Latin. Koivu doesn't bring a physical presence? For his stature, he is one though consumer.

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12-18-2004, 12:25 PM
  #69
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After reading this thread, I officialy name Saku Koivu the most underrated player in the NHL.

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Old
12-18-2004, 12:30 PM
  #70
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Originally Posted by markov`
After reading this thread, I officialy name Saku Koivu the most underrated player in the NHL.
Actually, he is both overrated and underrated. Underrated by some who do not watch him, and overrated by many habs fans. That's the case with every single player.

Also, I thought Ron Francis had the "most underrated" title.

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Old
12-18-2004, 12:30 PM
  #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ax²+bx+c
Tu dis tellement n'importe quoi...

p.s: crisse que tu te prends pour un autre.
Même après avoir régler ma dispute avec Vlad The Impaler... t'as raison.

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Old
12-18-2004, 12:32 PM
  #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 19bruins19
Actually, he is both overrated and underrated. Underrated by some who do not watch him, and overrated by many habs fans. That's the case with every single player.

Also, I thought Ron Francis had the "most underrated" title.
Well I'm currently wondering who is more apt to judge him. Habs fan who are seeing ALL of his games (I didn't miss any of the 82 Habs game last season), or Bruins fan who have seen him in the playoffs.

Mark my words, with Kovalev and Zednik, Koivu would finish in the top 10 scoring.

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Old
12-18-2004, 12:48 PM
  #73
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Originally Posted by markov`
The best joke in this thread is decerned to Steve Latin. Koivu doesn't bring a physical presence? For his stature, he is one though consumer.
For his stature, for having cancer, for being brought up in the FEL, for playing on the Habs, if he could stay healthy, if he had Kovalchuk and Iginla on his wings, if he was on the Avs, etc etc etc etc....

Let's just face it -- Koivu is an adequate to better than average first line center. Despite the flashes he shows, he's only put up numbers close to those of an "elite" player one year. Yes, I know it must suck to be in Montreal and not have one legitimate elite talent on your team (an argument could be made for Theodore, but I won't make it)... just don't pretend that Koivu is like the next great Hab Hall-oF-Famer simply because he's the best offensive player that you have. Are you really that starved for stars up there?

S L

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Old
12-18-2004, 12:49 PM
  #74
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Originally Posted by markov`
Well I'm currently wondering who is more apt to judge him. Habs fan who are seeing ALL of his games (I didn't miss any of the 82 Habs game last season), or Bruins fan who have seen him in the playoffs.

Mark my words, with Kovalev and Zednik, Koivu would finish in the top 10 scoring.
If he could stay healthy, if he could score over 20 goals a season....

S L

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Old
12-18-2004, 12:50 PM
  #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Latin
For his stature, for having cancer, for being brought up in the FEL, for playing on the Habs, if he could stay healthy, if he had Kovalchuk and Iginla on his wings, if he was on the Avs, etc etc etc etc....

Let's just face it -- Koivu is an adequate to better than average first line center. Despite the flashes he shows, he's only put up numbers close to those of an "elite" player one year. Yes, I know it must suck to be in Montreal and not have one legitimate elite talent on your team (an argument could be made for Theodore, but I won't make it)... just don't pretend that Koivu is like the next great Hab Hall-oF-Famer simply because he's the best offensive player that you have. Are you really that starved for stars up there?

S L
It doesn't have anything to do with the "ifs". How many time have you watched Koivu over the past 5 years? I'd say I have watched 300+ games of him... and 500+ since the beginning of his career. Since his first season, he's my favorite player. But heck, you must know him better than I do.

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