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Who's a better player: Saku Koivu or Tuomo Ruutu?

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Old
12-18-2004, 11:59 AM
  #76
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Originally Posted by markov`
It doesn't have anything to do with the "ifs". How many time have you watched Koivu over the past 5 years? I'd say I have watched 300+ games of him... and 500+ since the beginning of his career. Since his first season, he's my favorite player. But heck, you must know him better than I do.
Objectively, yes, I believe I do. In terms of fanboy-worship and homerism, probably not.

S L

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12-18-2004, 12:15 PM
  #77
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Koivu is underated by most, but he is also overrated by his fans.
I agree that Koivu is not top 10, but he is close.
No doubt he'd be able to crack the top10 points scorers if he had two elite wingers with him, but then the "if" game is so abstract
Koivu would have been so much greater if it wasnt of his injury proneness. The year he dominated the NHL in points, it was only his 2nd year in the league, cant say he wasnt projected as something BIG. But then after his injury, he never really got back to his old shape. He's still good, but not even close to what he could have been.

Saku could be the first center for at least half of the teams in the NHL, no doubt. Who wouldnt want such a good leader and playoff performer.

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12-18-2004, 12:22 PM
  #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Latin
Objectively, yes, I believe I do. In terms of fanboy-worship and homerism, probably not.

S L
I'm sorry, but I'm being completely unbiased. I am an objective person and I don't care if he's my favorite or not. He's not good because he is my favorite -- in fact, he is my favorite because he is good.

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12-18-2004, 12:23 PM
  #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Madevilz
Koivu is underated by most, but he is also overrated by his fans.
I agree that Koivu is not top 10, but he is close.
No doubt he'd be able to crack the top10 points scorers if he had two elite wingers with him, but then the "if" game is so abstract
Koivu would have been so much greater if it wasnt of his injury proneness. The year he dominated the NHL in points, it was only his 2nd year in the league, cant say he wasnt projected as something BIG. But then after his injury, he never really got back to his old shape. He's still good, but not even close to what he could have been.

Saku could be the first center for at least half of the teams in the NHL, no doubt. Who wouldnt want such a good leader and playoff performer.
Agreed with all you said.

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12-18-2004, 12:46 PM
  #80
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If you just look at Koivu's career more closely, it is very easy to see that the injuries are the big knock on him. If he stayed healthy all of his career, he would be a franchise player in the league and a star. That's why I said that he still hasn't reached his full potential. I can't wait for the Lockout to end... the Habs are getting stronger and IMO Koivu will breakout and have a really good season - around 75 or 80 points IF he stays healthy

Just look at this.

First season: 20 goals, 25 assists, 45 points in 82 games.

A rookie season very similar to Ruutu's one; however, every people say that Ruutu is going to be a much much better player... even if he's injury prone too.

Second season: 17 goals, 39 assists for 56 points in 50 games

I will always remember when I was 6 years old, and in the morning, I always watched in the newspapers to see NHL standings and top scorers. I remember seeing Saku Koivu at the very top of the scoring leaders list. My dad then told me... this kid is going to be special, he's the first Habs to lead the league in scoring since Lafleur. I think he became my favorite player at the very same time. Would have probably be NHL's top scorer if it wasn't of his injury... at only 22. That is why I don't get people who says this he isn't a "elite talent".

Third season: 14 goals, 43 assists for 57 points in 69 games.

Not as good as his second season, but still a great amount of points for a 23 years old. Remember how he was playing on a crappy team.

Fourth season: 14 goals, 30 assists for 44 points in 65 games.

IMO, that is when people began to wonder. "Is he that good?". Look at the past three seasons, his production decreased - a very good sign that injuries really hurted him. But remember, he is only 24 years old, I think he is putting very good numbers still.

Fifth season: 3 goals, 18 assists for 21 points in 24 games

Almost a point-per-game, in a crappy team as a 25 years old. Only 3 goals. Remember who where Habs top scorer that year: Martin Rucinsky, followed by Dainius Zubrus and Sergei Zholtok. It was a ridiculous team.

Sixth season: 17 goals, 30 assists for 47 points in 54 games

Again, almost a point-per-game. Again, you have to take in consideration how this team was crappy - even with 54 games, Koivu ended up to be the Habs top scorer. Tied with Oleg Petrov, who played 81 games that year. Oleg Petrov!! :lol

Seventh season: The cancer year. 2 points in 3 games, almost a point a game

Eight season: 21 goals, 50 assists for 71 points in 82 games

Some will say that this is only his first 70 points seasons. Other smarter people will realize that it's his first full-season except his rookie year. Even with all the injuries, Koivu did not have a single bad year when you look at point-per-game. The team went to the playoffs this year mainly because of Theo and him - he was followed by Richard Zednik in the Habs top scorer, who has 20 points lesser than him, in the same amount of game. It tells you how, all his career, Koivu needed to produce some offense alone.

Ninth season: 14 goals, 41 assists for 55 points in 68 games

Take in consideration that he missed the training camp and he had a long slump at the beginning of the season. Still, he finished third in Habs scoring that season.

All in all... all his career, except one or two year, Koivu needed to generate some offense alone. However, he did succeeded. Right now, Koivu is at his "peak" and he could breakout. He has definitely elite talent, and IF !!! it wasn't of injury, he'd be a top 10, maybe top 5 center in the league today

PLEASE NOTE: MOST OF THE ARGUMENTS IN THIS REPLY ARE FACTS

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12-18-2004, 12:52 PM
  #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markov`
If you just look at Koivu's career more closely, it is very easy to see that the injuries are the big knock on him. If he stayed healthy all of his career, he would be a franchise player in the league and a star. That's why I said that he still hasn't reached his full potential. I can't wait for the Lockout to end... the Habs are getting stronger and IMO Koivu will breakout and have a really good season - around 75 or 80 points IF he stays healthy

Just look at this.

First season: 20 goals, 25 assists, 45 points in 82 games.

A rookie season very similar to Ruutu's one; however, every people say that Ruutu is going to be a much much better player... even if he's injury prone too.

Second season: 17 goals, 39 assists for 56 points in 50 games

I will always remember when I was 6 years old, and in the morning, I always watched in the newspapers to see NHL standings and top scorers. I remember seeing Saku Koivu at the very top of the scoring leaders list. My dad then told me... this kid is going to be special, he's the first Habs to lead the league in scoring since Lafleur. I think he became my favorite player at the very same time. Would have probably be NHL's top scorer if it wasn't of his injury... at only 22. That is why I don't get people who says this he isn't a "elite talent".

Third season: 14 goals, 43 assists for 57 points in 69 games.

Not as good as his second season, but still a great amount of points for a 23 years old. Remember how he was playing on a crappy team.

Fourth season: 14 goals, 30 assists for 44 points in 65 games.

IMO, that is when people began to wonder. "Is he that good?". Look at the past three seasons, his production decreased - a very good sign that injuries really hurted him. But remember, he is only 24 years old, I think he is putting very good numbers still.

Fifth season: 3 goals, 18 assists for 21 points in 24 games

Almost a point-per-game, in a crappy team as a 25 years old. Only 3 goals. Remember who where Habs top scorer that year: Martin Rucinsky, followed by Dainius Zubrus and Sergei Zholtok. It was a ridiculous team.

Sixth season: 17 goals, 30 assists for 47 points in 54 games

Again, almost a point-per-game. Again, you have to take in consideration how this team was crappy - even with 54 games, Koivu ended up to be the Habs top scorer. Tied with Oleg Petrov, who played 81 games that year. Oleg Petrov!! :lol

Seventh season: The cancer year. 2 points in 3 games, almost a point a game

Eight season: 21 goals, 50 assists for 71 points in 82 games

Some will say that this is only his first 70 points seasons. Other smarter people will realize that it's his first full-season except his rookie year. Even with all the injuries, Koivu did not have a single bad year when you look at point-per-game. The team went to the playoffs this year mainly because of Theo and him - he was followed by Richard Zednik in the Habs top scorer, who has 20 points lesser than him, in the same amount of game. It tells you how, all his career, Koivu needed to produce some offense alone.

Ninth season: 14 goals, 41 assists for 55 points in 68 games

Take in consideration that he missed the training camp and he had a long slump at the beginning of the season. Still, he finished third in Habs scoring that season.

All in all... all his career, except one or two year, Koivu needed to generate some offense alone. However, he did succeeded. Right now, Koivu is at his "peak" and he could breakout. He has definitely elite talent, and IF !!! it wasn't of injury, he'd be a top 10, maybe top 5 center in the league today

PLEASE NOTE: MOST OF THE ARGUMENTS IN THIS REPLY ARE FACTS
Not good to admit you are 13/14 on this board.....

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Old
12-18-2004, 12:53 PM
  #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JasonMacIsaac
Not good to admit you are 13/14 on this board.....
Oh. I am 15, soon 16.

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12-18-2004, 12:58 PM
  #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markov`
Oh. I am 15, soon 16.
OK....you must have messed up the age in your post. If you were 6 in 96/97 then that would make you 13/14 this year.

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12-18-2004, 01:02 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by JasonMacIsaac
OK....you must have messed up the age in your post. If you were 6 in 96/97 then that would make you 13/14 this year.
Yeah, I messed up I guess. My maths sucks! :lol

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12-18-2004, 01:08 PM
  #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 19bruins19
You can't say "If Koivu had a great winger". Great centre's are able to pad the stats of their wingers, such as Forsberg, Thornton, etc.
exactly... look at hoglunds production with sundin.

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12-18-2004, 01:15 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by Porn*
exactly... look at hoglunds production with sundin.
Look at Petrov's production with Koivu.

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12-18-2004, 01:18 PM
  #87
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And Martin Rucinsky too. He clearly had his best years with Koivu. Same can be said for Savage, and, of course, Zednik.

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12-18-2004, 01:26 PM
  #88
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If anyone doubts the Koivu IS a top 10 centre just remember the World Hockey Championships this year. Remember team Finland !! Canada played Finland for the gold and it was Koivu that got them there and carried that club and still made a hell of a game out of the gold medel game. Sure Canada won but Canada did not blow Finland away and Koivu " that puny overated centre from MTL not deserving of top ten status" again, led the charge for Finland and never giving up till the final horn. Total stats dont count for him. When he plays he is always at 115%, leeds by example, and never gives up. Thats why he gets hurt a lot. But for all his injurys over his career, if he is on the ice then look out he will play at 115%.

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12-18-2004, 01:26 PM
  #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RLC
If anyone doubts the Koivu IS a top 10 centre just remember the World Hockey Championships this year. Remember team Finland !! Canada played Finland for the gold and it was Koivu that got them there and carried that club and still made a hell of a game out of the gold medel game. Sure Canada won but Canada did not blow Finland away and Koivu " that puny overated centre from MTL not deserving of top ten status" again, led the charge for Finland and never giving up till the final horn. Total stats dont count for him. When he plays he is always at 115%, leeds by example, and never gives up. Thats why he gets hurt a lot. But for all his injurys over his career, if he is on the ice then look out he will play at 115%.

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12-18-2004, 01:29 PM
  #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RLC
If anyone doubts the Koivu IS a top 10 centre just remember the World Hockey Championships this year. Remember team Finland !! Canada played Finland for the gold and it was Koivu that got them there and carried that club and still made a hell of a game out of the gold medel game. Sure Canada won but Canada did not blow Finland away and Koivu " that puny overated centre from MTL not deserving of top ten status" again, led the charge for Finland and never giving up till the final horn. Total stats dont count for him. When he plays he is always at 115%, leeds by example, and never gives up. Thats why he gets hurt a lot. But for all his injurys over his career, if he is on the ice then look out he will play at 115%.
"if he is on the ice"

S L

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12-18-2004, 02:48 PM
  #91
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It doesnt mean anything to say "He would have been good had he not been injured." You can have all the players in the world that "could have been good" and Ill still take a guy like Ruutu over them.

As for having 2 "elite" wingers, even I could have good stats playing with 2 elite wingers. Its completely possible that he could have been a top 10 forward his whole career, but the simple fact is that he wasnt. And until he actually proves he can be in terms other than theoretically, people have no grounds to say he is.

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12-18-2004, 03:50 PM
  #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theBob
even I could have good stats playing with 2 elite wingers.
Think about all the professional hockey players who have been squashed in between two elite wingers who didn't make it... What makes you think that you are better than them?

And Koivu already has GOOD stats. He'd have excellent stats with two elite wingers.

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12-18-2004, 03:52 PM
  #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RLC
If anyone doubts the Koivu IS a top 10 centre just remember the World Hockey Championships this year. Remember team Finland !! Canada played Finland for the gold and it was Koivu that got them there and carried that club and still made a hell of a game out of the gold medel game. Sure Canada won but Canada did not blow Finland away and Koivu " that puny overated centre from MTL not deserving of top ten status" again, led the charge for Finland and never giving up till the final horn. Total stats dont count for him. When he plays he is always at 115%, leeds by example, and never gives up. Thats why he gets hurt a lot. But for all his injurys over his career, if he is on the ice then look out he will play at 115%.
That was the world cup, not the champs.

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12-18-2004, 04:16 PM
  #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Latin
"if he is on the ice"

S L
Do you expect him to give 115% when he's injured in the pressbox too? Maybe he should jump onto the ice and play in his street clothes.

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12-18-2004, 04:33 PM
  #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ax²+bx+c
Tu dis tellement n'importe quoi...

p.s: crisse que tu te prends pour un autre.
Encore un autre qui pitch des insultes pour ensuite me dire que je me prends pour un autre quand je répond.

J'ai pas dis n'importe quoi. Je t'ai dis les faits. Tu peux continuer à les ignorer pis t'imaginer que Koivu est "élite" dans presque toutes les catégories si toi et ton chum markov aimez vivre dans l'ignorance la plus totale.

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12-18-2004, 04:34 PM
  #96
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Originally Posted by Vlad The Impaler
Encore un autre qui pitch des insultes pour ensuite me dire que je me prends pour un autre quand je répond.

J'ai pas dis n'importe quoi. Je t'ai dis les faits. Tu peux continuer à les ignorer pis t'imaginer que Koivu est "élite" dans presque toutes les catégories si toi et ton chum markov aimez vivre dans l'ignorance la plus totale.
le fromage c'est tres bien.

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12-18-2004, 04:40 PM
  #97
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If Ruutu continues his development, he will outshine Saku. For the moment, though, Saku still has the edge

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12-18-2004, 04:52 PM
  #98
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Originally Posted by waffledave
Do you expect him to give 115% when he's injured in the pressbox too? Maybe he should jump onto the ice and play in his street clothes.

I expect him to give whatever % it takes for him to play over 40 games a year.

S L

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12-18-2004, 04:59 PM
  #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Latin
I expect him to give whatever % it takes for him to play over 40 games a year.

S L
I guess that's the difference between you and me. I expect him to give whatever % it takes to win.

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12-18-2004, 05:17 PM
  #100
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Originally Posted by markov`
And Martin Rucinsky too. He clearly had his best years with Koivu.
Huh? Martin Rucinsky clearly had his best years playing with Vinnie Damphousse.

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