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10-17-2012, 10:53 PM
  #751
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Personally, I think Lydman gets dealt coming out of training camp (whenever that might be), and Vatanen takes his spot.
Fowler-Beauch
Allen-Sbisa (Shutdown)
Souray-Vatanen
Guenin

I think Lindholm will spend the whole year in Norfolk which will be great experience for him. Clark will be up at some point when the inevitable injury to one of Souray/Allen/Beauchamin happens.

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10-17-2012, 10:58 PM
  #752
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What do you guys think Lydman's trade value is? 2nd or 3rd round pick?
Probably that. Maybe we could get someone for Norfolk included.

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10-17-2012, 11:20 PM
  #753
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Probably that. Maybe we could get someone for Norfolk included.
It could be more, if Lydman were given a chance to play healthy. Personally, I'd be very nervous to see Lydman moved so early. What if Beauchemin struggles a bit? Anaheim really has no one to take up that kind of slack. I think sometimes people forget how good Lydman was for us when he was healthy.

And for those who say Sbisa, he was one of our most sheltered defensemen last season. Going from that to having the toughest defensive minutes is a pretty significant change, and that's just asking for things to get messy.

Unless Vatanen is just too good for the AHL, there is really no need to bring him up at the expense of an NHL vet, especially an NHL vet like Lydman who we might need.

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10-17-2012, 11:30 PM
  #754
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It could be more, if Lydman were given a chance to play healthy. Personally, I'd be very nervous to see Lydman moved so early. What if Beauchemin struggles a bit? Anaheim really has no one to take up that kind of slack. I think sometimes people forget how good Lydman was for us when he was healthy.

And for those who say Sbisa, he was one of our most sheltered defensemen last season. Going from that to having the toughest defensive minutes is a pretty significant change, and that's just asking for things to get messy.

Unless Vatanen is just too good for the AHL, there is really no need to bring him up at the expense of an NHL vet, especially an NHL vet like Lydman who we might need.
I totally get where you're coming from on this. I also agree with a lot of it.

Question: If Sami out plays Lydman in camp, do you deal Lydman or hang onto him as a security blanket in case Beauchamin struggles coming back from his shoulder(?) injury?

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10-17-2012, 11:44 PM
  #755
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It could be more, if Lydman were given a chance to play healthy. Personally, I'd be very nervous to see Lydman moved so early. What if Beauchemin struggles a bit? Anaheim really has no one to take up that kind of slack. I think sometimes people forget how good Lydman was for us when he was healthy.

And for those who say Sbisa, he was one of our most sheltered defensemen last season. Going from that to having the toughest defensive minutes is a pretty significant change, and that's just asking for things to get messy.

Unless Vatanen is just too good for the AHL, there is really no need to bring him up at the expense of an NHL vet, especially an NHL vet like Lydman who we might need.
Souray and Allen?

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10-17-2012, 11:49 PM
  #756
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It could be more, if Lydman were given a chance to play healthy. Personally, I'd be very nervous to see Lydman moved so early. What if Beauchemin struggles a bit? Anaheim really has no one to take up that kind of slack. I think sometimes people forget how good Lydman was for us when he was healthy.

And for those who say Sbisa, he was one of our most sheltered defensemen last season. Going from that to having the toughest defensive minutes is a pretty significant change, and that's just asking for things to get messy.

Unless Vatanen is just too good for the AHL, there is really no need to bring him up at the expense of an NHL vet, especially an NHL vet like Lydman who we might need.
I agree. And there is really no need to move Lydman straight away anyway, it certainly doesn't hurt to keep Vatanen in the AHL for a little while at least.

And yeah, Sbisa was very sheltered. He was playing the most sheltered minutes out of all of our defensemen last year. The pairing of him and Visnovsky was awesome for a stretch to start the new year but they were certainly getting the easiest minutes out of all the pairings.

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10-17-2012, 11:53 PM
  #757
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I totally get where you're coming from on this. I also agree with a lot of it.

Question: If Sami out plays Lydman in camp, do you deal Lydman or hang onto him as a security blanket in case Beauchamin struggles coming back from his shoulder(?) injury?
For me, it would depend on the degree that Vatanen out-played Lydman. In the game of hockey, I don't think being the better player necessarily means you're the best player for the spot. Roles are important, and Lydman and Vatanen play different roles.

In Vatanen's case, any edge in play is going to come from the offensive side of the game. Let's be realistic about this. Vatanen isn't going to be better defensively than Lydman. It probably won't even be close. So, no matter how much better Vatanen plays in the offensive zone, is it really going to matter to Anaheim if Beauchemin does struggle to come back from injury? I'm not sure. It certainly won't be Vatanen that Anaheim leans on to pick up the slack. It would be Sbisa, or Allen, or even Fowler.

Logically, I think it makes more sense to hold on to Lydman. See how Beauchemin does. See how the defense looks in general, with a healthy Lydman on it. If he's not needed, or if he just doesn't perform as well as we need, we can always move him. On the other hand, think of how beneficial it would be to Anaheim if we can get a similar Lydman to the one we had in 2010-2011? For me, this is a risk vs. reward decision. If we move Lydman, and then find out we need the help defensively, we'd be scrambling to make a move to fill that hole. But if we try Lydman, only to find out Vatanen would be more effective, what do we lose? Vatanen spends some time in the AHL, and comes to the NHL that much more seasoned.

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10-17-2012, 11:57 PM
  #758
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Souray and Allen?
Two injury prone players, who haven't even played a single game for Anaheim? That's who you want to fall back on, if Beauchemin's shoulder hinders him? Isn't that playing with dynamite, without knowing how long the fuse is?

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10-18-2012, 12:03 AM
  #759
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Two injury prone players, who haven't even played a single game for Anaheim? That's who you want to fall back on, if Beauchemin's shoulder hinders him? Isn't that playing with dynamite, without knowing how long the fuse is?
I suppose.

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10-18-2012, 12:39 AM
  #760
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For me, it would depend on the degree that Vatanen out-played Lydman. In the game of hockey, I don't think being the better player necessarily means you're the best player for the spot. Roles are important, and Lydman and Vatanen play different roles.

In Vatanen's case, any edge in play is going to come from the offensive side of the game. Let's be realistic about this. Vatanen isn't going to be better defensively than Lydman. It probably won't even be close. So, no matter how much better Vatanen plays in the offensive zone, is it really going to matter to Anaheim if Beauchemin does struggle to come back from injury? I'm not sure. It certainly won't be Vatanen that Anaheim leans on to pick up the slack. It would be Sbisa, or Allen, or even Fowler.

Logically, I think it makes more sense to hold on to Lydman. See how Beauchemin does. See how the defense looks in general, with a healthy Lydman on it. If he's not needed, or if he just doesn't perform as well as we need, we can always move him. On the other hand, think of how beneficial it would be to Anaheim if we can get a similar Lydman to the one we had in 2010-2011? For me, this is a risk vs. reward decision. If we move Lydman, and then find out we need the help defensively, we'd be scrambling to make a move to fill that hole. But if we try Lydman, only to find out Vatanen would be more effective, what do we lose? Vatanen spends some time in the AHL, and comes to the NHL that much more seasoned.
Good points. You've gotten me to agree that we should start out with Lydman as the 6th defender and have Vatanen in Norfolk waiting for Allen/Souray/Beauch to get injured.

One thing I am a LITTLE bit concerned about if we go with Lydman over Vatanen is mobility on the blueline. I mean obviously Fowler is one of the smoothest skaters in the league, Sbisa is a pretty good two way guy, and can join the rush at times, Souray has a heavy shot from th point, but he's kind of old. Allen is a pure shutdown guy, we're not going to get any mobility from him at all. Same goes for Lydman, and Beauch is similar to Sbisa. Is that enough skating ability back there? That's my one concern for that blueline; other than that flaw, I think they'll be really good defensively. Big improvement from last year for sure.

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10-18-2012, 12:55 AM
  #761
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Good points. You've gotten me to agree that we should start out with Lydman as the 6th defender and have Vatanen in Norfolk waiting for Allen/Souray/Beauch to get injured.

One thing I am a LITTLE bit concerned about if we go with Lydman over Vatanen is mobility on the blueline. I mean obviously Fowler is one of the smoothest skaters in the league, Sbisa is a pretty good two way guy, and can join the rush at times, Souray has a heavy shot from th point, but he's kind of old. Allen is a pure shutdown guy, we're not going to get any mobility from him at all. Same goes for Lydman, and Beauch is similar to Sbisa. Is that enough skating ability back there? That's my one concern for that blueline; other than that flaw, I think they'll be really good defensively. Big improvement from last year for sure.
That's part of the risk vs. reward. If we head into the season and realize that we need more puck moving ability, is there anything stopping the team from calling Vatanen up and sitting someone(or even moving someone at some point)? The team can make adjustments that direction relatively easy, just by calling up Vatanen. The other direction, however, is tougher. We don't really have a D prospect who can fill in on the D side of things just yet, which means we might need to look at a trade to fill a hole.

I don't really see any downside to holding on to Lydman a bit longer, to see how things play out at first. The downside to moving him, and finding out we needed the help defensively, well, that's obvious...

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10-18-2012, 01:47 AM
  #762
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Two injury prone players, who haven't even played a single game for Anaheim? That's who you want to fall back on, if Beauchemin's shoulder hinders him? Isn't that playing with dynamite, without knowing how long the fuse is?
I wouldn't call Allen injury prone. He's played 70+ games in all seasons but one since the lockout.

Also, I think you're missing a key piece of what people are saying here. Lydman would have to be played off the roster. If Toni has returned to his 2011 form, then that should be apparent, and his job would be safe.

I think it's important to remember that Sbisa is still developing. He showed that last season, and we shouldn't expect that to have stopped. He has to show that he can be relied on for tougher minutes, but we shouldn't be writing off that possibility.

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10-18-2012, 03:08 AM
  #763
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I wouldn't call Allen injury prone. He's played 70+ games in all seasons but one since the lockout.

Also, I think you're missing a key piece of what people are saying here. Lydman would have to be played off the roster. If Toni has returned to his 2011 form, then that should be apparent, and his job would be safe.

I think it's important to remember that Sbisa is still developing. He showed that last season, and we shouldn't expect that to have stopped. He has to show that he can be relied on for tougher minutes, but we shouldn't be writing off that possibility.
That isn't what was said though. The question was about Vatanen out-playing Lydman at training camp, and that isn't the same. A player like Lydman goes into cap looking to shake off the rust and prepare for the NHL season. A prospect like Vatanen goes into training camp looking to play his way onto the team. You can't judge whether a vet like Lydman is truly in form based on training camp, or even during pre-season. Just like you can't necessarily know if a player is NHL ready based on training camp and the pre-season. How many times have we seen a real good training camp and an impressive pre-season from a young prospect amount to nothing? If he ends up on the team at all.

No one is writing off the possibility of Sbisa getting tougher minutes, or making any assumptions that he won't continue to develop. We're saying that going from being the most sheltered defenseman to one we need to carry a heavy responsibility isn't smart. That isn't putting a player in a position to succeed, and frankly, there is every reason to be concerned about this, since we've already seen him struggle when he was asked to do too much too quickly. Unless Sbisa just finds that next level, I'm expecting Boudreau to slowly increase his responsibility as he shows he's ready for it. Keep in mind that for all the good things Boudreau said about Sbisa, he still took great care to protect him from a lot of tough situations.

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10-18-2012, 03:20 AM
  #764
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That isn't what was said though.
Maybe I'm mistaking whose posts you're contesting, then.

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10-18-2012, 06:02 AM
  #765
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I think moving Lydman would be a mistake. He's probably better than Souray and Allen.

Beauchemin will probably have a down year like Lydman did last year. Shoulders scare me.

Souray also has a wonky shoulder. Personally I'd love to move him if Vatanen is ready, but that has to do with how much I hated that signing in the first place. The team probably won't do it.

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10-18-2012, 09:23 AM
  #766
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Assuming this work stoppage comes to an end. Which Admirals forwards do you think get pulled to go to camp and possibly make the roster assuming the Ducks carry 14 or 15 forwards?

Which line spots really need to be filled in Anaheim?

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10-18-2012, 10:19 AM
  #767
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Basically all the big name guys on offense will get a call up. Probably 3ish staying.

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10-18-2012, 11:30 AM
  #768
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Assuming this work stoppage comes to an end. Which Admirals forwards do you think get pulled to go to camp and possibly make the roster assuming the Ducks carry 14 or 15 forwards?

Which line spots really need to be filled in Anaheim?
Palmieri and DSP will be up for sure, with Holland very likely. After that Vatanen, Lindholm, Etem, and a couple bottom 6 forwards will come in for at least camp.

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10-18-2012, 11:38 AM
  #769
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For me, it would depend on the degree that Vatanen out-played Lydman. In the game of hockey, I don't think being the better player necessarily means you're the best player for the spot. Roles are important, and Lydman and Vatanen play different roles.

In Vatanen's case, any edge in play is going to come from the offensive side of the game. Let's be realistic about this. Vatanen isn't going to be better defensively than Lydman. It probably won't even be close. So, no matter how much better Vatanen plays in the offensive zone, is it really going to matter to Anaheim if Beauchemin does struggle to come back from injury? I'm not sure. It certainly won't be Vatanen that Anaheim leans on to pick up the slack. It would be Sbisa, or Allen, or even Fowler.

Logically, I think it makes more sense to hold on to Lydman. See how Beauchemin does. See how the defense looks in general, with a healthy Lydman on it. If he's not needed, or if he just doesn't perform as well as we need, we can always move him. On the other hand, think of how beneficial it would be to Anaheim if we can get a similar Lydman to the one we had in 2010-2011? For me, this is a risk vs. reward decision. If we move Lydman, and then find out we need the help defensively, we'd be scrambling to make a move to fill that hole. But if we try Lydman, only to find out Vatanen would be more effective, what do we lose? Vatanen spends some time in the AHL, and comes to the NHL that much more seasoned.
On the point that Vatanen and Lydman play different roles, then wouldn't Lindholm be the defensemen called up or a Mat Clark?

As for getting rid of proven defensive defensemen at the NHL to make room for unproven NHL talent defensemen is a very scary proposition because you're dealing with the unknown. Keep all our defensemen. One or two defensemen will probably succumb to some type of injury, I hope not, but it's inevitable, and thus we can call up a Vatanen, Lindholm, or a Clark. By that time, Vatanen and Lindholm would have become accustomed to the smaller NA rink as well as game play. We fans get to have some kind of gauge of these new prospects on the NA ice on the pro AHL level.

I agree with Sojourn that Vatanen could use some seasoning first.

OT (in a way):
AngelDuck, I'll presume you're an Anaheim based fan and thus root for both the Ducks and Angels of Anaheim. With that premise I'll use this example of rookies needing to adjust to the pro game with baseball, rookie Mike Trout did not just break through out of nowhere on the the Major League scene. He went through the farm system. At age 18, Trout dominated most of high A ball and then was promoted to AA. At age 19, Trout started off in AA, but was called up for a few games at the MLB level, but not enough to remove the rookie status. At age 20 (this past season), Trout started off in AAA and dominated. He dominated so much that he was promoted to the MLB level and dominated the MLB level. Trout wasn't all that during his age 19 debut into the MLB, but getting that look and seeing the difference between the AA and MLB game helped Trout improve. Heck, even 19 yr old phenom Bryce Harper spent a year in the minors as well as started off this year in the minors.

That said, Vatanen isn't built like Trout, but guess who, relatively, is? Lindholm. I can only wish that Lindholm will produce like Trout in the future, but Trout is already at a meteoric pace.

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10-18-2012, 03:05 PM
  #770
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If indeed there is a season I believe training camp has already been defined as one week. No rookie will "outplay" a vet in a one week camp.

Also, as has been stated before, Lydman is far more valuable going into the season considering Beauch's questionable shoulder. There is no way the Ducks should get rid of a proven veteran D man for any, as yet, unproven rookie. Watching Fowler and Sbisa play defense the last couple of years should be a painful reminder of that.

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10-18-2012, 03:22 PM
  #771
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I'm not sure they will pull many, if any extras from the AHL. There's no point in leaving Norfolk at a huge disadvantage to see how somebody that isn't going to make the team does in a camp environment. I honestly don't see the point in bringing the likes of Etem and Lindholm up but apparently Lindholm was promised a look (although I can't find any articles where he's quoted saying that).

As for the forwards that come up, Palmieri and DSP should be locks and one of Holland/McMillan/Elkins should make it. Maroon maybe has an outside shot also.

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10-18-2012, 05:05 PM
  #772
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There isnt going to be a end to the lockout, at least not until next year, I personnaly think there isnt going to be a season at all. So its not a discusion about who is leaving as everyone is going to be in Norfollk. thats good for us!!!!!!

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10-18-2012, 05:35 PM
  #773
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There isnt going to be a end to the lockout, at least not until next year, I personnaly think there isnt going to be a season at all. So its not a discusion about who is leaving as everyone is going to be in Norfollk. thats good for us!!!!!!

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10-18-2012, 05:51 PM
  #774
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I wonder what will happen with prospects in Europe if the lockout ends. Will they leave to play in a shortened camp, or will teams keep them over there for the year?

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10-18-2012, 06:03 PM
  #775
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i'd prefer to see how Lydman plays, when he's healthy he's an excellent penalty killer and DZONE player, if we're not gonna make the playoffs he'd have alot more value at the TDL, it does appear difficult tho, for Sami to make the team

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