Babcock has only been a coach in the NHL for like 14 years. I think it's a little early to think about him retiring from coaching. I think all of these comments he's making are to try and get Holland to wake the **** up. I really hope that Babcock quits after this season if Holland doesn't bring in some real help. And signing Suter while only re-signing Hudler or bringing back Samuelsson isn't 'help'.
Do you, or anyone else here, actually think Hudler could be re-signed?
Besides that, it's an interesting topic: Holland vs. Babcock. What camp are you in? (not you, Heaton, I know which camp you are in) Babcock is one of the better coaches in the NHL. Holland is one of the better GMs in the NHL. Who's right, if we buy into this tiff regarding roster composition? Which of the two actually needs to wake up, if either do? Is one obviously in the wrong? Is it just a bad mix of GM/coach at this point? Should one be let go before the other?
Hudler, due to his size and skating limitations, is an ideal 3rd line winger on a 3rd line that can be dangerous and actually score. But he scores enough that he's coveted on the free agent market. That's why I think Brunner is a potential Hudler replacement, but only if he can do his thing on the 3rd line. An actual skill guy on the third line who could help elevate the line.
That said, I don't see him making the big club at all. Ideally, Nyquist takes that role on the third line and helps make it a dangerous scoring line.... and we get 2 wingers... Pipe dream, I know (Parise and Semin), but if we get Semin and we rotate the hottest of Bertuzzi and Nyquist into the top 6, having a Brunner (if he can make the club) on the 3rd would be great.
Let's just hope he can play and is willing to work to be a Wing. Ultimately that's all that matter with him.
Illari Filppula, Fabian Brunnström and Ville Leino. Detroit is a brave choice for Brunner. That's why I was surprised by Holland's top six-statement. Maybe he said so hoping Brunner wouldn't sign somewhere else?
Illari Filppula, Fabian Brunnström and Ville Leino. Detroit is a brave choice for Brunner. That's why I was surprised by Holland's top six-statement. Maybe he said so hoping Brunner wouldn't sign somewhere else?
That's why I'm wondering a little bit why he's signing here. He could get more ice time and responsibility on other teams and maybe not be afraid to sent down/back.
Illari Filppula, Fabian Brunnström and Ville Leino. Detroit is a brave choice for Brunner. That's why I was surprised by Holland's top six-statement. Maybe he said so hoping Brunner wouldn't sign somewhere else?
Illari Filppula and Ville Leino are not great skaters. My guess is Brunner's speed and skill will give him a much better shot at playing in Detroit.
Babcock has only been a coach in the NHL for like 14 years. I think it's a little early to think about him retiring from coaching. I think all of these comments he's making are to try and get Holland to wake the **** up. I really hope that Babcock quits after this season if Holland doesn't bring in some real help. And signing Suter while only re-signing Hudler or bringing back Samuelsson isn't 'help'.
I can see Babcock wanting to move on to a Pat Quinn type of situation where he can be coach/GM. He seems to be getting really sick of having to try and coach up a roster without having any real control over who's on it.
I can't see him giving up coaching though. New challenge, yes. GM, maybe. But still coaching.
I can see Babcock wanting to move on to a Pat Quinn type of situation where he can be coach/GM. He seems to be getting really sick of having to try and coach up a roster without having any real control over who's on it.
I can't see him giving up coaching though. New challenge, yes. GM, maybe. But still coaching.
Besides Darryl Sutter in recent memory, who else is a coach/GM?
Besides Darryl Sutter in recent memory, who else is a coach/GM?
I think his issue is more guys who could play in Detroit but are sent to Grand Rapids for further seasoning, ie the over ripe thing. It goes back to Valtteri Filppula who was supposed to be buried in Grand Rapids in 2006-07 when Greg Johnson was signed. Johnson had a health issue and Ken Holland was forced to put Filppula into the lineup. He's been pretty okay since then and Babs always mentions Fil - along with Big E - as guys who exhibit great leadership qualities. I think Babs is well within his rights to push for guys like Filppula and Smith to make the team and what would it really hurt if Babs gives a guy a roster spot and he ends up having to go back down to Grand Rapids? Nyquist probably should have been on the roster this year but they sent him back down and he kicked ass.
I have never understood why people say Babcock has a problem with younger players. If there's anyone who always prefers an older player it's Holland. The Greg Johnson situation is a perfect example. So is blowing a 1st on Kyle Quincey when you have Brendan Smith ready to play.
Its all about getting speed in the top 6 with this guy. The Brunner comparisons are stupid cause the guy cant skate worth **** and you have to skate in this league anymore.
Same with Leino.
A right handed shooter with speed. Also saying he is gritty from what I've read means he at least wont avoind contact. I dont think he'll be very gritty in the NHL or physical, but at least we know he can most likely take and give a hit.
Its all about getting speed in the top 6 with this guy. The Brunner comparisons are stupid cause the guy cant skate worth **** and you have to skate in this league anymore.
Same with Leino.
A right handed shooter with speed. Also saying he is gritty from what I've read means he at least wont avoind contact. I dont think he'll be very gritty in the NHL or physical, but at least we know he can most likely take and give a hit.
I'm actually excited to see what this kid can do
The funniest part is saying that he's a euro then point at other euros that failed. Like they would all play the same game and have the exact same chances to succeed. In a cap world, trying to find hidden gems via free agency is a chance worth taking. Especially Europeans under 28 that has to sign ELCs and thus coming cheap.
The funniest part is saying that he's a euro then point at other euros that failed. Like they would all play the same game and have the exact same chances to succeed. In a cap world, trying to find hidden gems via free agency is a chance worth taking. Especially Europeans under 28 that has to sign ELCs and thus coming cheap.
I have no problem with a signing like this.
I do take issue with Babcock saying he will give him the top 6 job to start the season.
That's an insult to players who've been here busting their tail, and prospects who've busted their tail for the shot.
To me, these comments are bizarre/
Hopefully the kid gets some good linemates. If he doesn't score for a while the blame will be lumped on him blindly because of his "inability to transition".
I like this signing. IMO he would fit best with Franzen and Zetterberg. They were great together at World Championships. Mule worked very well, when he wasn't at sniper role, he was the crease-crasher. Then Bunner would add speed in this line and a right-handness.
I have no problem with a signing like this.
I do take issue with Babcock saying he will give him the top 6 job to start the season.
That's an insult to players who've been here busting their tail, and prospects who've busted their tail for the shot.
To me, these comments are bizarre/
On the surface I don't like it either. We should however remember Patrick Eaves had this promise entering last season and was quickly demoted even before injuries. All that means is Nyquist has to knock him out of a job. The guy has been the top scorer in pro league for a little while now, don't pretend he comes to the table with nothing either. He busted his tail for this shot as well, even if it wasn't in a Griffin's jersey.
I like this signing. IMO he would fit best with Franzen and Zetterberg. They were great together at World Championships. Mule worked very well, when he wasn't at sniper role, he was the crease-crasher. Then Bunner would add speed in this line and a right-handness.
Only problem is Mule is really a right winger he is comfortable on his off wing and his best move is the step inside the D-man on that side. I think you are right about him being more involved as a crease crasher, but if they do sign Semin that makes Brunner cracking the top 6 on the RW a very hard proposition. On the positive side those that want Franzen demoted down the lines when he has no effort, this allows Babcock better options to do that.
I will be disappointed especially after the Worlds if Babcock doesn't start the season with a Fil - Z - Franzen line, it would seem the best bet for all three players to enjoy it especially if Franzen plays in front of the net a little better.
Only problem is Mule is really a right winger he is comfortable on his off wing and his best move is the step inside the D-man on that side. I think you are right about him being more involved as a crease crasher, but if they do sign Semin that makes Brunner cracking the top 6 on the RW a very hard proposition. On the positive side those that want Franzen demoted down the lines when he has no effort, this allows Babcock better options to do that.
Franzen was a left winger last time we won a Stanley Cup. Sammy was on the other side and Filppula in the middle. It's not any kind of problem.
If we add two righties, I think Mule will swap again on the left.
I think his issue is more guys who could play in Detroit but are sent to Grand Rapids for further seasoning, ie the over ripe thing. It goes back to Valtteri Filppula who was supposed to be buried in Grand Rapids in 2006-07 when Greg Johnson was signed. Johnson had a health issue and Ken Holland was forced to put Filppula into the lineup. He's been pretty okay since then and Babs always mentions Fil - along with Big E - as guys who exhibit great leadership qualities. I think Babs is well within his rights to push for guys like Filppula and Smith to make the team and what would it really hurt if Babs gives a guy a roster spot and he ends up having to go back down to Grand Rapids? Nyquist probably should have been on the roster this year but they sent him back down and he kicked ass.
I have never understood why people say Babcock has a problem with younger players. If there's anyone who always prefers an older player it's Holland. The Greg Johnson situation is a perfect example. So is blowing a 1st on Kyle Quincey when you have Brendan Smith ready to play.
I think if Babcock were that hot about the kids from GR, he'd give them more than 3 minutes of ice time when they do get called up.
You can tell he likes Smith because he gave him some pretty decent minutes right away. He seems to be ok with Nyquist because he was getting 12+ minutes a night most of the time and playing with good players. Otherwise, Babcock has not played the kids when they get called up.
Andersson got 9 or 10 shifts a game - about 6 minutes.
Mursak got the same - about 7 minutes a game.
Tatar never topped 13 minutes in any NHL game he's played, and he's supposed to be a scoring line player.
Emmerton played 74 games for them last season and never saw more than 12:32 in ice time. And he's supposed to be a playmaking, scoring line player.
The vast majority of the time, the kids come up and get 4 minutes of ice time playing with Holmstrom or with each other, and then they get sent back down. To me, Babcock's actions in doling out ice time to these kids speaks volumes - he may not like the guys he's got in the regular lineup, but he doesn't think the prospects all that great either. And they're not.
For the most part, these guys are fringe NHLers. We get all excited about them here but in reality, guys like Andersson, Mursak, Emmerton, Sheahan, they're not difference-makers. Babcock wants difference-makers, and he doesn't care where they come from.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GentlemanMasher
Anyone else think Damien Brunner might just be Fabian Brunnstrom with a silly moustache?
For the most part, these guys are fringe NHLers. We get all excited about them here but in reality, guys like Andersson, Mursak, Emmerton, Sheahan, they're not difference-makers. Babcock wants difference-makers, and he doesn't care where they come from.
A little early to say, don't ya think? Babcock put him in the lineup in a game that determined playoff seeds at the end of the year over Andersson and others. Plus he is still early in his development.
A little early to say, don't ya think? Babcock put him in the lineup in a game that determined playoff seeds at the end of the year over Andersson and others. Plus he is still early in his development.
Babcock needed a center and a big body and Sheahan was the only guy available that fit both. He got 9 shifts and didn't even take a faceoff. Needless to say, I don't think Babcock was thrilled with his options.
I'm also very down on Sheahan and haven't seen anything that suggests he's more than another Matt Ellis. So there's that too.
Those guys most likely won't ever be difference makers in the NHL. What you see now is pretty much what they'll always be, minus maybe decision making and poise. It's like when people talk about Helm "developing a scoring touch". One, what does that even mean? It's so vague and way too broad, and two, what have we seen in Helm that will indicate he'll magically turn into a goal scorer? He is what is he now minus like I said probably experience and poise and decision making. When guys breakout and score 50 goals, it's a surprise to most people but that doesn't mean it was a real surprise. The player likely showed signs that we just couldn't see.
I think if Babcock were that hot about the kids from GR, he'd give them more than 3 minutes of ice time when they do get called up.
You can tell he likes Smith because he gave him some pretty decent minutes right away. He seems to be ok with Nyquist because he was getting 12+ minutes a night most of the time and playing with good players. Otherwise, Babcock has not played the kids when they get called up.
Andersson got 9 or 10 shifts a game - about 6 minutes.
Mursak got the same - about 7 minutes a game.
Tatar never topped 13 minutes in any NHL game he's played, and he's supposed to be a scoring line player.
Emmerton played 74 games for them last season and never saw more than 12:32 in ice time. And he's supposed to be a playmaking, scoring line player.
The vast majority of the time, the kids come up and get 4 minutes of ice time playing with Holmstrom or with each other, and then they get sent back down. To me, Babcock's actions in doling out ice time to these kids speaks volumes - he may not like the guys he's got in the regular lineup, but he doesn't think the prospects all that great either. And they're not.
For the most part, these guys are fringe NHLers. We get all excited about them here but in reality, guys like Andersson, Mursak, Emmerton, Sheahan, they're not difference-makers. Babcock wants difference-makers, and he doesn't care where they come from.
Your newest Red Wing, Naibaf Mortsnnurb.
That pretty much makes the point. The guys who have been mothballed but were given significant roles under Babcock are Filppula, Smith and Nyquist. All indications are that all of these guys will be significant contributors. I honestly don't think Babcock is pushing for Tatar to make the team. I recall a presentation he gave in Novi or something to a chamber of commerce meeting where he got to talking about prospects and he said something to the effect that if the scouting dept was up there talking about prospects they'd go on and on about all these guys but Babs is only really concerned with the guys who can help the team NOW. And that's as it should be, so I've been saying this is a small group of players where Holland should be more willing to give Babcock what he says he needs. Babcock has a track record where Holland should really listen to him and pay attention and give him what he needs.
Those guys most likely won't ever be difference makers in the NHL. What you see now is pretty much what they'll always be, minus maybe decision making and poise. It's like when people talk about Helm "developing a scoring touch". One, what does that even mean? It's so vague and way too broad, and two, what have we seen in Helm that will indicate he'll magically turn into a goal scorer? He is what is he now minus like I said probably experience and poise and decision making. When guys breakout and score 50 goals, it's a surprise to most people but that doesn't mean it was a real surprise. The player likely showed signs that we just couldn't see.
People thought Franzen would be a checking line player, and he is now the best goal scorer on the Wings. Your statement is very broad, doesn't always work like that. What players are you talking about specifically? Players do not always develop in a linear fashion. Sheahan is a defensively responsible players who has not put up points, but he has a good heavy shot. Could he turn into a goal scorer? Yup. Could he be a career 4th line center? Yup. You can't predict how people will develop based on where they are now. For example Jonathan Ericsson is a completely different player then he was when he was drafted. Same with Franzen. Same with Cleary. Same with Eaves. Where you are now is not what you will always be, not at all.
That pretty much makes the point. The guys who have been mothballed but were given significant roles under Babcock are Filppula, Smith and Nyquist. All indications are that all of these guys will be significant contributors. I honestly don't think Babcock is pushing for Tatar to make the team. I recall a presentation he gave in Novi or something to a chamber of commerce meeting where he got to talking about prospects and he said something to the effect that if the scouting dept was up there talking about prospects they'd go on and on about all these guys but Babs is only really concerned with the guys who can help the team NOW. And that's as it should be, so I've been saying this is a small group of players where Holland should be more willing to give Babcock what he says he needs. Babcock has a track record where Holland should really listen to him and pay attention and give him what he needs.
And the fact that Babcock never bothered to learn Kindl's name and still refers to him as "Kuba" probably says it all about his feelings about poor Jakub...
