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Thornton or Marleau

View Poll Results: Who would you rather keep on the team if we had to move one or the other?
Joe Thornton 99 86.09%
Patrick Marleau 16 13.91%
Voters: 115. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
05-18-2012, 12:20 AM
  #26
Gene Parmesan
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Trade them both because your best players can't be over 30. Am I doing it right?

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05-18-2012, 12:33 AM
  #27
TheJuxtaposer
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gene Parmesan View Post
Trade them both because your best players can't be over 30. Am I doing it right?
Trade Pavelski and Clowe too. 25 is the new 30. except not.

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05-18-2012, 12:37 AM
  #28
Gene Parmesan
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Originally Posted by TheJuxtaposer View Post
Trade Pavelski and Clowe too. 25 is the new 30. except not.
They are so old I agree.

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Old
05-18-2012, 01:10 AM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ilikebigjoe View Post
case and point PF. thank you sharks fans.
This is nothing more than a popularity contest. If the team needed to change to a different style or a culture change, it can't be done with Thornton still on the team. He's too much of a presence to go a different direction like that. Marleau is able to flow with it and not rock the boat. He can change his game easier. And there is a good case to be made that they won't win with Thornton being the man because of how much presence he has to go along with the style of play he plays and the stubbornness with regards to change that comes with him and how that impacts the rest of the team.

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Originally Posted by ilikebigjoe View Post
joe is a step above for sure, and patty never broke 60 when he was "the man" (pre-thornton trade) - and that was in an NHL that had higher point totals on a general level.
The last bit is just plain incorrect. Pre-lockout was lower scoring and with the Sharks in particular under Sutter, offense was not the focal point at all.

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Old
05-18-2012, 01:14 AM
  #30
KingKopitar11
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There is a poll about this? Doesn't Marleau coast a lot? Get rid of him.

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Old
05-18-2012, 01:14 AM
  #31
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Originally Posted by hockeyball View Post
I honestly can't decide. It's too situational, it depends on what the plan is, what the return is, who is brought in, who else is traded... And I like both players equally as Sharks.
I think you're looking deeper than necessary compared to what the OP wants to convey. I believe the poll is intended to be rash and thoughtless decision; whom would you rather have going forward 5 seconds from this moment; ready, go!

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05-18-2012, 02:09 AM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheJuxtaposer View Post
I'm sorry, but did you watch this team this season? Because at no point did they look like a contender. even when they were winning.
I beg to differ, early in the season when McLellan got the nod for coaching the ASG because of the Sharks' having the highest points percentage, the team looked to be rounding into a force. Down the stretch they looked pretty good as well, especially when they went 4-0 to close out the season in some extremely tough games against 2 teams that are still playing, and one that will make the finals likely at record pace.

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Originally Posted by SJeasy View Post
I'll tell you what. I'll admit you were right and apologize if the Sharks get the shiny thingy in the next two years. Your part is an apology is an apology if they don't. No excuses. I am very certain after watching hockey likely for more years than you have been around and studying it for a number of years recently. The trends are that overwhelming and go beyond this past season.
That's silly, the objectively best team in the league historically has at best a 20% chance of winning, and that percentage looks to be trending downward. All you can ask for is the proverbial chip and a chair, but if you want to raise the bar, a conference championship would be the most you could ask. So while making the playoffs is really all that is needed to show the window remains open (note how the 8th seed is doing this year), I'm willing to say the conference championship is a better indicator of whether a team's "window" is still "open." So the Sharks competing for the conference title (i.e. in the mix as of the final conference-heavy stretch of the season) will be proof enough the window is still open; I think they will win it at least once out of the next two years.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pinkfloyd View Post
This is nothing more than a popularity contest. If the team needed to change to a different style or a culture change, it can't be done with Thornton still on the team. He's too much of a presence to go a different direction like that. Marleau is able to flow with it and not rock the boat. He can change his game easier. And there is a good case to be made that they won't win with Thornton being the man because of how much presence he has to go along with the style of play he plays and the stubbornness with regards to change that comes with him and how that impacts the rest of the team.
You can't possibly mean Joe Thornton, the guy who remade his game over the past couple of seasons? Marleau is the one who hasn't changed his style.

How are people this misguided? How did this ridiculous Thornton-is-the-problem mantra happen? This is insane.


Last edited by Phu: 05-18-2012 at 02:16 AM.
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Old
05-18-2012, 02:22 AM
  #33
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The people who voted Marleau are just saying why he shouldn't be moved. Why would you choose to move Thornton over him?

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05-18-2012, 02:25 AM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juantimer View Post

That's silly, the objectively best team in the league historically has at best a 20% chance of winning, and that percentage looks to be trending downward. All you can ask for is the proverbial chip and a chair, but if you want to raise the bar, a conference championship would be the most you could ask. So while making the playoffs is really all that is needed to show the window remains open (note how the 8th seed is doing this year), I'm willing to say the conference championship is a better indicator of whether a team's "window" is still "open." So the Sharks competing for the conference title (i.e. in the mix as of the final conference-heavy stretch of the season) will be proof enough the window is still open; I think they will win it at least once out of the next two years.
The reason for the downtrend is that there are enough good coaches out there that have learned to counter the possession game. Possession teams are taking a beating. Wings grossly over possessed the Preds and Preds won. Preds grossly overpossessed the Yotes and the Yotes won. Preds and Yotes are two teams that have counters to the possession game, as are the Rags.

I won't take a reg season conf. championship as the bar. Playoff hockey is what counts to show that a team is head and shoulders up there. Enough variety to overcome matchups, etc. If you want to set the bar at a conf. title in the playoffs that is fine, effectively a visit to the SCF.

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05-18-2012, 02:34 AM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KingKopitar11 View Post
There is a poll about this? Doesn't Marleau coast a lot? Get rid of him.
Doesn't Kopitar coast a lot? You guys should probably get rid of him at almost $7M.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JayP812 View Post
The people who voted Marleau are just saying why he shouldn't be moved. Why would you choose to move Thornton over him?
Because I think we need to move into rebuild mode, and trading JT makes the most sense. I'm not denying that JT is the better player, but Marleau is the better fit for this team.

Quote:
Originally Posted by juantimer View Post
How are people this misguided? How did this ridiculous Thornton-is-the-problem mantra happen? This is insane.
For every person that thinks Thornton is the problem, there are 10 more that would trade Marleau for Nash.

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Old
05-18-2012, 06:20 AM
  #36
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I voted Thornton but because I'm completely 100% biased towards Thornton with him being my fav player and all.

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05-18-2012, 08:34 AM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juantimer View Post
You can't possibly mean Joe Thornton, the guy who remade his game over the past couple of seasons? Marleau is the one who hasn't changed his style.

How are people this misguided? How did this ridiculous Thornton-is-the-problem mantra happen? This is insane.
Remade his game? All he's done the last couple of seasons is improve his defensive awareness to a point where he's not a liability out there. His defensive ability is still suspect and in no other situation is that more apparent than how horrible he is on the penalty kill. Marleau's game is in a constant state of change because he's the one that moves around the most and has to play off of whoever he's lined up with and it changes every year.

People like you seem to think that the brand of hockey played by guys like Thornton and Clowe can win playoff games when they dominate the puck and slow it down. They can't. The good defensive teams have caught on to that. Do you actually believe it is a complete fluke that St. Louis dominated us in 9 games this year like they did? The entire reason why the root of the issue is Thornton is because he is the guy that is controlling the play the bulk of the time and has the most influence on the team both in terms of what he actually does on the ice and how things are strategically set up for this team. And that particular influence and puck play is not conducive to winning in the playoffs.

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Old
05-18-2012, 09:08 AM
  #38
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Originally Posted by Pinkfloyd View Post
People like you seem to think that the brand of hockey played by guys like Thornton and Clowe can win playoff games when they dominate the puck and slow it down. They can't. .
Coyotes slow it down. Kings slow it down. Rangers slow it down. Devils slow it down.

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Old
05-18-2012, 10:18 AM
  #39
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Originally Posted by SpinTheBlackCircle View Post
Coyotes slow it down. Kings slow it down. Rangers slow it down. Devils slow it down.
Coyotes play the trap, and we are seeing how badly they are paying for that right now.

Kings have a transition game, Sharks do not.

Same goes for the other 3 teams.

You can slow the play down as long as its coupled with a quality transition game, which the Sharks fail at completely.

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05-18-2012, 10:28 AM
  #40
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Thornton...... not even a question......

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05-18-2012, 01:06 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by SpinTheBlackCircle View Post
Coyotes slow it down. Kings slow it down. Rangers slow it down. Devils slow it down.
By the article, Sutter's one strategic change for the Kings was grossly speeding up their exit strategy. It's a DeBoer trademark as well. Ranger's take every opportunity to create breakaway opportunities, particularly with their blocked shots. They aren't blocking just to stop the puck, they are blocking to throw it beyond the shooter.

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05-18-2012, 01:54 PM
  #42
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Joe Thornton very easily. It's a shame we won't be able to drop Marleau.

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05-18-2012, 02:45 PM
  #43
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Again only ONE season of results! As of last season possession games worked pretty damn well in the playoffs. Given all the insane PDOs and goaltending performances we're seeing in the playoffs this year, I don't think you can say this is a real change -- it's likely a mirage, like Boston's play last playoffs.

It's pretty obvious to this observer which player is more important and valuable to our playoff success.

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05-18-2012, 03:04 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by juantimer View Post
Again only ONE season of results! As of last season possession games worked pretty damn well in the playoffs. Given all the insane PDOs and goaltending performances we're seeing in the playoffs this year, I don't think you can say this is a real change -- it's likely a mirage, like Boston's play last playoffs.

It's pretty obvious to this observer which player is more important and valuable to our playoff success.
They've been getting beat by teams that are faster and deeper than them the last three years. It's not a matter of luck.

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05-18-2012, 03:39 PM
  #45
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Originally Posted by Pinkfloyd View Post
They've been getting beat by teams that are faster and deeper than them the last three years. It's not a matter of luck.
Who's "they"? I'm not just talking about the Sharks. The league's premiere possession team made the finals last year and lost out to a team with absolutely ridiculous PDO after losing their #1 D-man.

The league's best possession team won it all the year before that. Possession has proven to be probably the most important factor in playoff success; this year is the fluke. We lost to teams that beat us at our own possession game (including this year).

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05-18-2012, 05:18 PM
  #46
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i want more consistency with production, not a guy who goes red hot and ice cold and you dont know when each will happen. you know what you are getting with joe, and i think you will still likely know in 2-3 years. i honestly worry that marleaus inconsistency will catch up to him and its only a matter of time before he ***** the bed completely

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05-18-2012, 05:26 PM
  #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ilikebigjoe View Post
i want more consistency with production, not a guy who goes red hot and ice cold and you dont know when each will happen. you know what you are getting with joe, and i think you will still likely know in 2-3 years. i honestly worry that marleaus inconsistency will catch up to him and its only a matter of time before he ***** the bed completely
And yet even with Marleau's inconsistencies, he's a consistent goal scorer from season to season and more often than not making it happen in the playoffs.

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05-18-2012, 05:29 PM
  #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SJeasy View Post
I'll tell you what. I'll admit you were right and apologize if the Sharks get the shiny thingy in the next two years. Your part is an apology is an apology if they don't. No excuses. I am very certain after watching hockey likely for more years than you have been around and studying it for a number of years recently. The trends are that overwhelming and go beyond this past season.
Still the only thing close to a point you've made is that neither one will lead the sharks to the promised land. Possibly so but that was never the question. "Which one would you keep in an XOR situation?" By being reactionary you certainly seem to imply of the two Marleau is the one to keep but avoid defending that opinion. Sorry but hockey is not just a race up and down the ice and picking your moment to let the puck fly. You couldn't possibly find a better example of how limited that game is than Marleau. There will always be a value to the game Thornton plays and if, as you apparently believe - and possibly correctly- the next ten years will be dominated by zone entries and tic tac shoot rather than puck possesion then some master really had better oughta pass along the Tao of puck control playmaking so it isn't a forgotten art when some smart coach of the future realizes that they are only going to win by adopting a fresh approach.

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05-18-2012, 06:09 PM
  #49
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some master really had better oughta pass along the Tao of puck control playmaking so it isn't a forgotten art when some smart coach of the future realizes that they are only going to win by adopting a fresh approach.

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05-18-2012, 06:27 PM
  #50
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don't know how anyone could pick marleau.
Well, I did. Patty brings more speed to the game, doesn't slow down play, is better defensively, and seems much more capable of playing the faster, skill-based, quick-passing attack game the Sharks need to adopt. In the long term, Patty is the better asset to retain IMO.

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