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Acq/ Rost. Bldg./ Cap Part XII

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Old
05-19-2012, 06:37 AM
  #51
Raikkonen
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Originally Posted by MW6 View Post
And I'd rather trade Johansson + pick, than Laich for say Plekanec or Pavelski. Johansson might still improve some more, but if I had to chose between the two of them I'd pick Laich to have on my team any day of the week.
And probably that's why nobody should trade their good 2C for MJ and a pick

Laich has more trade value and less defined role on the team. And he is older.

Nothing against Laich.

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05-19-2012, 07:23 AM
  #52
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Agree -- people talk about "NJ money problems".. maybe when there's smoke, there's fire, but otherwise, yeah, dunno why he'd leave.
They're broke and they made him go into salary arbitration.

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05-19-2012, 07:34 AM
  #53
Stewie G
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I think that Laich is good enough to be a 2nd line winger, brings a lot more intangibles than just ES-scoring to his line. He's not good enough to be a 2C though, his playmaking isn't at the level it needs to be on that position.

And I'd rather trade Johansson + pick, than Laich for say Plekanec or Pavelski. Johansson might still improve some more, but if I had to chose between the two of them I'd pick Laich to have on my team any day of the week. A 2nd line with Laich-Pavs/Pleks-Semin could be a really good one.

Johansson is fast and hustles, and he is good at entering the O-zone and occasionally makes a great play, but still gets knocked off the puck to easily and is a poor finisher. IMO his skillset is more fit for a C than a winger, but he's not strong enough, and wins to few one-on-one battles to be effective enough for 2C, not to mention his faceoffs.
What intangibles are you referring to? Kinda sorta standing in front of the net? Poor passing? Skating down left wing and shooting it directly into the goalie's chest?

He's a good PKer but you don't have to be a $4.5M 2nd liner in order to be one. Pittsburgh has had one of the top PKs the last couple years and they generally use a bunch of pluggers.

I know I sound like a serious hater, but I liked the guy when he was making $2M and looked like he might be a good 3C. He hasn't shown me any offensive progression and has gone backwards in the faceoff department all while getting a $2.5M raise. Money better spent elsewhere IMO.

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Old
05-19-2012, 10:14 AM
  #54
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How good/bad are those numbers in context? How does his ESG/60 measure up to other second line wingers?
The 60th ranked left winger in ES goals scored this year had 10 and the 60th ranked right winger had 9. League wide 12 ES goals ranked 141st amongst forwards. Oh and Dustin Brown had 12 ES goals this season. So...

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05-19-2012, 10:22 AM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Stewie G View Post
What intangibles are you referring to? Kinda sorta standing in front of the net? Poor passing? Skating down left wing and shooting it directly into the goalie's chest?

He's a good PKer but you don't have to be a $4.5M 2nd liner in order to be one. Pittsburgh has had one of the top PKs the last couple years and they generally use a bunch of pluggers.

I know I sound like a serious hater, but I liked the guy when he was making $2M and looked like he might be a good 3C. He hasn't shown me any offensive progression and has gone backwards in the faceoff department all while getting a $2.5M raise. Money better spent elsewhere IMO.
You keep saying the money is better spent elsewhere. Well, where is it better spent?

Again, the Caps could add a boatload of salary, and his $4.5M still wouldn't be a problem.

Maybe I've missed it, but I don't recall seeing this sort of crusade against Schultz from you. He's a far worse player, who's overpaid more than Laich is.

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05-19-2012, 10:53 AM
  #56
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I'd take Nash over Semin any day of the week.
If both were free agents, sure. But given the type of assets we'd have to unload to get Nash, no way in hell I'd take him over Semin.

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05-19-2012, 11:11 AM
  #57
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If both were free agents, sure. But given the type of assets we'd have to unload to get Nash, no way in hell I'd take him over Semin.
If Semin was still under contract after this season with the Caps, a 1 for 1 (Semin for Nash) would be of equal value and fair.

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05-19-2012, 11:14 AM
  #58
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If Semin was still under contract after this season with the Caps, a 1 for 1 (Semin for Nash) would be of equal value and fair.
Not for Columbus.

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05-19-2012, 11:14 AM
  #59
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Lauch's production has decreased due to the last 1.75 seasons where we've gone into an ultra defensive system. He just doesn't have the skill to just make a play on his own like SOB, he relies on others by going to the net, and is pretty good in transition and what not. He's definitely a 2LW. He's probably a 55 point winger in a system that you're allowed to play in all 3 zones, not just the defensive one.

I mean, it wouldn't have mattered if we got Parise and DH was still here. He'd most likely only score 60 points, and that's just the truth.

Play hockey the way it's supposed to be played and Laich is a 2LW, Ovechkin a superstar, Semin will produce at a PPG rate, Backstrom will get 90 points, and Johansson will be a 60 point guy if he plays in the top 6.

Don't let the players production the last 2 years fool you. They played in systems where they sat back, played extremely passive, and weren't allowed to attack whatsoever. If they actually play hockey the way it's supposed to be played, production will be much different.

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05-19-2012, 12:21 PM
  #60
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If Semin was still under contract after this season with the Caps, a 1 for 1 (Semin for Nash) would be of equal value and fair.
Yeaa..no. Nash is better.

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Old
05-19-2012, 12:21 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by SwedishMeatballs1990 View Post
Don't let the players production the last 2 years fool you. They played in systems where they sat back, played extremely passive, and weren't allowed to attack whatsoever. If they actually play hockey the way it's supposed to be played, production will be much different.
They certainly were allowed to attack but they counted on highly effective first man pressure and pretty much failed at it. It's why dump and chasing hasn't been overly effective either.

At their best under Boudreau they relied on strong second and third man pressure which was more flooding and pressuring the opposition's decision-making than the sort of individual physical forechecking needed the past couple years. Not that that can't work, it just won't without the right group of forwards and a higher work ethic.

This roster needs something closer to Boudreau 1.0 but more polished, more precise in their puck movement and less aggressive with D pinching.

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05-19-2012, 12:22 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by SwedishMeatballs1990 View Post
Lauch's production has decreased due to the last 1.75 seasons where we've gone into an ultra defensive system. He just doesn't have the skill to just make a play on his own like SOB, he relies on others by going to the net, and is pretty good in transition and what not. He's definitely a 2LW. He's probably a 55 point winger in a system that you're allowed to play in all 3 zones, not just the defensive one.

I mean, it wouldn't have mattered if we got Parise and DH was still here. He'd most likely only score 60 points, and that's just the truth.

Play hockey the way it's supposed to be played and Laich is a 2LW, Ovechkin a superstar, Semin will produce at a PPG rate, Backstrom will get 90 points, and Johansson will be a 60 point guy if he plays in the top 6.

Don't let the players production the last 2 years fool you. They played in systems where they sat back, played extremely passive, and weren't allowed to attack whatsoever. If they actually play hockey the way it's supposed to be played, production will be much different.
I couldn't agree more. Great post.

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05-19-2012, 12:38 PM
  #63
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Maybe I've missed it, but I don't recall seeing this sort of crusade against Schultz from you. He's a far worse player, who's overpaid more than Laich is.
I think the difference in my opinion anyway is that Schultz isn't close to the finished article while Laich is what he is. IMO Schultz isn't going to peak until he is 32-33 as it is going to take him that long to put the weight he will really need to be effective on that beanpole frame.

I don't have the dislike for Laich that so many around here have. He is decent/good at a lot of things but great at nothing. He can do a decent job at pretty much any forward spot and that versatility works against him in some ways as he is often jerked around from role to role and it is difficult to excel at anything when that happens.

IMO Laich's ideal spot on this team is 2LW with a player like Semin on the other wing. He is skilled enough to play that complimentary role on a scoring line, good enough defensively to allow the more skilled players on his line to cheat a little bit on that side of the puck, can forecheck effectively when not having to be concerned with the added defensive responsibilities of playing center, and can take faceoffs ok, which allows the center to be more aggressive in the dot at the risk of getting tossed.

And when it comes to Laich's cap number I think it is hard to put a price tag on that versatility.

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05-19-2012, 12:39 PM
  #64
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I couldn't agree more. Great post.
Appreciate it

I mean 2 or 3 years ago everyone said they wanted more guys like Brooks Laich. Now he's a scapegoat. He's overpaid but he's effective playing with 2 skilled players, in a more balanced system, and his salary suggests that's what his role should be.

And the guy I think will really benefit from a better coach/system is Mojo. 46 points, as a sophomore, who gets overpowered at tomes, but has speed to burn. Imagine if he could actually use that speed, and put on some weight this summer (which he will). He would score 60 points easily IMO. But now everyone thinks we should trade him. IMO he's a good 2C on a fairly offensive team. I mean, the center that would've fit this team best this past year was Jordan Staal IMO, even though he's a 3C.

You really just can't judge anyone from this past year. It was a flawed system, and really just an awful way to play hockey, as shown by EVERYONE on our team having their production decrease greatly, besides Chimera, and still giving up a decent amount of goals in the regular season.

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05-19-2012, 12:55 PM
  #65
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I'm fine with the criticism of Johansson's play in the playoffs but to complain about a guy in his second NHL season's regular season production when he put up 46 points when a player of Ovechkin's status put up 65 is absurd. That is 71% of Ovechkin's overall production. If Ovechkin put up 100 points would anyone complain about Johansson putting up 70? And when just looking at even strength production it becomes 38 to 42.

Johansson just needs to get stronger and continue to work on his faceoffs, which getting stronger will help also.

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05-19-2012, 12:58 PM
  #66
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What do you guys think about Kane.

Its a lot of **** over drinking on Cinco de Mayo.

Seen my brother in law get more **** faced after his kids baptism.

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05-19-2012, 01:12 PM
  #67
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I'm fine with the criticism of Johansson's play in the playoffs but to complain about a guy in his second NHL season's regular season production when he put up 46 points when a player of Ovechkin's status put up 65 is absurd. That is 71% of Ovechkin's overall production. If Ovechkin put up 100 points would anyone complain about Johansson putting up 70? And when just looking at even strength production it becomes 38 to 42.

Johansson just needs to get stronger and continue to work on his faceoffs, which getting stronger will help also.
Exactly. He was pretty ****** in the playoffs, but you really couldn't expect more in the regular season when our leading scorer got 65 points. It was weird to see him struggle so much this postseason though because IMO he was our 2nd best forward behind OV last year in the playoffs; he played very well then.

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05-19-2012, 01:20 PM
  #68
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Kane and OV would make great drinking buddies.

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05-19-2012, 01:24 PM
  #69
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Kane and OV would make great drinking buddies.
I have a feeling Kane and Carlson would be buddies

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Old
05-19-2012, 01:27 PM
  #70
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Could you imagine

Orlov-Green
Alzner-Carlson
Hamrlik-Wideman

?!

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05-19-2012, 01:36 PM
  #71
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Could you imagine

Orlov-Green
Alzner-Carlson
Hamrlik-Wideman

?!
Wideman isn't coming back. Orlov will take his spot and we will find a more defensive Dman. If Orlov was playing 25mins a night like Wideman he'd put up 35-45 points.

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05-19-2012, 02:40 PM
  #72
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Could you imagine

Orlov-Green
That is not a pairing that would get the most out of either of those guys. Plus even though Orlov is a left shot he seems more comfortable and is a much more effective player on the right side.

Simply replacing Wideman on the 3rd pairing with Orlov makes perfect sense in so many ways. Why mess with it...?

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Old
05-19-2012, 03:04 PM
  #73
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Johansson is not going to have much value left by next summer. He's going to get paid regardless. There is literally about him that makes him irreplaceable.

What he is right now is a Swedish Andrew Cogliano, with Flash as his ceiling. Getting stronger isn't automatically going to turn him into a useful player, and with the way he's been developed he's not going to be more than a replaceable winger. Cogliano put up 45 points as a 20 year-old, got stronger, but remained worthless at faceoffs, hasn't hit 40 points again, and just put up his worst season after going from Renney's trap to Boudreau.

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Old
05-19-2012, 03:08 PM
  #74
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Johansson is not going to have much value left by next summer. He's going to get paid regardless. There is literally about him that makes him irreplaceable.

What he is right now is a Swedish Andrew Cogliano, with Flash as his ceiling. Getting stronger isn't automatically going to turn him into a useful player, and with the way he's been developed he's not going to be more than a replaceable winger. Cogliano put up 45 points as a 20 year-old, got stronger, but remained worthless at faceoffs, hasn't hit 40 points again, and just put up his worst season after going from Renney's trap to Boudreau.
Hahaha what the ****?

He was fine all season and had ONE BAD PLAYOFFS. He was good last year's playoffs...

Holy overreacting batman... he's 21 years old, calm down.

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Old
05-19-2012, 03:29 PM
  #75
Langway
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Johansson is not going to have much value left by next summer. He's going to get paid regardless.
No, he isn't. Even if he just has another 40-50 point season next year he will not have arbitration rights. Worst-case he'll be in the $2-3M bracket two years from now while they continue to wait for him to develop his game, which isn't exactly a killer. They'll gamble that he's capable of more than that, particularly since their young cheap forwards aside from him are fairly underwhelming overall at this point.

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