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Since picking Jordan Staal 2nd overall in 2006...

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Old
05-19-2012, 07:07 PM
  #26
eXile59
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Originally Posted by #66 View Post
Yeah the Pens haven't drafted well. Look at the Red Wings and Caps propecct list and they have youngsters out the wahzoo.

Its a shame and I thought all this was CP's fault...
Despres, Morrow, Bennett, Harrington
VS
Smith, Nyquist, Tatar, Jurco

Yeah that was a pretty stupid statement. Not to mention Jeffrey, Strait, Bortuzzo are all NHL caliber players at this point. To get players with the kind of upside as Despes, Harrington, & Despres with late picks is pretty impressive.

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05-19-2012, 07:38 PM
  #27
DoctrSteveBrule
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i love how people want our prospects drafted in the bottom 10 of each round to become NHL studs in 2 years. Want immediate prospect help? Start losing again.

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05-19-2012, 10:11 PM
  #28
Letang fan 58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eXile59 View Post
Despres, Morrow, Bennett, Harrington
VS
Smith, Nyquist, Tatar, Jurco

Yeah that was a pretty stupid statement. Not to mention Jeffrey, Strait, Bortuzzo are all NHL caliber players at this point. To get players with the kind of upside as Despes, Harrington, & Despres with late picks is pretty impressive.
You are comparing the players taken in the last 2 drafts by the Pens to the ones taken in the 3 years prior to that by the Wings. Who knows what we'll see out of the Wings last 2 drafts yet but im sure they will end up good just like every other year.

Those 4 are it for the players with upside for the Pens in the last 6 drafts. The Wings have Smith, Nyqvist, Tatar, Sheahan, Jankrok, Mrazek, Jurco and who knows what else from last yrs draft. The point is they have at least 1 really solid prospect/player from each draft and more than 1 in several. The Pens drafting has been lagging hard and looks even worse when you compare it to one of the best draft teams on the Wings.

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05-19-2012, 10:17 PM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DoctrSteveBrule View Post
i love how people want our prospects drafted in the bottom 10 of each round to become NHL studs in 2 years. Want immediate prospect help? Start losing again.
I dont think anyone is expecting more out of prospects that are drafted within 2 years. Its years 3 through 6 that were brutal and ya would be nice to expect a little bit more out of those years. For all we know the guys in the last 2 years may fall off drastically and not become full nhlers, they look good now but they arent in the NHL yet.

Hopefully our drafting has turned around, the last 2 yrs look solid so far.

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05-19-2012, 10:24 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by phaneuf_fan_3 View Post
I dont think anyone is expecting more out of prospects that are drafted within 2 years. Its years 3 through 6 that were brutal and ya would be nice to expect a little bit more out of those years. For all we know the guys in the last 2 years may fall off drastically and not become full nhlers, they look good now but they arent in the NHL yet.

Hopefully our drafting has turned around, the last 2 yrs look solid so far.
Besides the 2008 draft, where we traded all 3 of our top picks anyways, I see a player who is likely to be an NHL roster player full time somewhere if not here. Esposito was crucial to acquiring Hossa and Dupuis and the fact that he's a bust is only a compliment to the pens at this point.

2006: Strait in the 3rd
2007: Bortuzzo in the 3rd, Jeffrey in the 7th

and the jury is still out on the 2009-2011 drafts.

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05-19-2012, 11:13 PM
  #31
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I think a little perspective is in order. In baseball there are 30 teams and a 25 man roster. In hockey it's 30 teams with a maximum of 23 players. Fairly similar. I found one source that listed the average hockey career at 5-6 years and another source listed the average baseball career as 4-5 years. I have no idea how they came to those figures but my gut was telling me that baseball cycles players a little bit faster than hockey so I'm okay with it.

So baseball has more openings and shorter careers, but anyone who follows baseball prospects will tell you that if you can find 2 starter caliber players in every draft then you're drafting well. It's not uncommon to get - for example - a really solid regular and 2 bench players (or relief pitchers) from a single draft. Maybe you get a star and a solid regular? Good draft. Maybe 4 bench players? Not too bad.

So when you evaluate a hockey draft I think you have to have that in mind. If the Penguins manage to get a top 6 forward or a top 4 defenseman in every draft then I'd say that they're actually doing pretty well. I'd even say that you're drafting okay if you get 2-3 bottom six or bottom pairing guys in a draft.

So if I apply that to the draft lists and provide my opinions:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Hook View Post
Here's all the picks since 2006. Make of it what you will.

2006
Jordan Staal (solid regular, borderline star)
Carl Sneep (potential for bottom pairing)
Brian Strait (safe bet for bottom pairing, possibly top 4)
Chad Johnson
Timo Seppanen

(good draft in my opinion even though the first rounder was a virtual gimme)

2007
Angelo Esposito
Keven Veilleux
Robert Bortuzzo (seems a safe bet for bottom pairing, possible top 4)
Casey Pierro-Zabotel
Luca Caputi
Alex Grant
Jake Muzzin
Dustin Jeffrey (already a bottom six guy)

(probably weak but not a total disaster)


2008
Nathan Moon
Alexander Pechurski
Patrick Killeen
Nicholas D'Agostino

(gutted in trades)

2009
Simon Despres
Philip Samuelsson
Ben Hanowski
Nick Petersen
Alex Velischek
Andy Bathgate
Viktor Ekbom

(likely to be an okay draft, potential to be a good one)

2010
Beau Bennett
Bryan Rust
Tom Kuhnhackl
Kenneth Agostino
Joe Rogalski
Reid McNeill

(hard to tell - trying to be optimistic but expecting it to be a bad draft)

2011
Joe Morrow
Scott Harrington
Dominik Uher
Josh Archibald
Scott Wilson

(looks pretty darn good considering the draft position and the short list)

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Old
05-19-2012, 11:18 PM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eXile59 View Post
Despres, Morrow, Bennett, Harrington
VS
Smith, Nyquist, Tatar, Jurco

Yeah that was a pretty stupid statement. Not to mention Jeffrey, Strait, Bortuzzo are all NHL caliber players at this point. To get players with the kind of upside as Despes, Harrington, & Despres with late picks is pretty impressive.
IMO its Morrow vs... in terms of high end ablity. Despres, Bennett and Harry are solid prospects but I think their high end is good not great.

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05-19-2012, 11:51 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by phaneuf_fan_3 View Post
You are comparing the players taken in the last 2 drafts by the Pens to the ones taken in the 3 years prior to that by the Wings. Who knows what we'll see out of the Wings last 2 drafts yet but im sure they will end up good just like every other year.

Those 4 are it for the players with upside for the Pens in the last 6 drafts. The Wings have Smith, Nyqvist, Tatar, Sheahan, Jankrok, Mrazek, Jurco and who knows what else from last yrs draft. The point is they have at least 1 really solid prospect/player from each draft and more than 1 in several. The Pens drafting has been lagging hard and looks even worse when you compare it to one of the best draft teams on the Wings.
So why don't you just say "The Pen's should draft more Europeans". A lot of those guys have very little to no NHL experience. The truth is that Wings are down right average when it comes to drafting over the last several years. You count Mursak who has had less success at the NHL than a guy like Jeffrey. It's really not an impressive list prospect list at all.

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05-20-2012, 12:26 AM
  #34
DoctrSteveBrule
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Quote:
Originally Posted by #66 View Post
IMO its Morrow vs... in terms of high end ablity. Despres, Bennett and Harry are solid prospects but I think their high end is good not great.
Morrow- Top 2 D-man potential (50% likelihood)
Bennett- Top 6 forward potential (who knows)
Despres- Top 4 D-man potential (75% likelihood)
Harrington- 4/5/6 D-man potential (who knows)

I think Morrow and Bennett have the highest ceilings but Despres looks to be the safest bet at this point, considering his time in the NHL so far

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05-20-2012, 12:54 AM
  #35
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I'd like us to have one skilled forward in the near future on an ELC playing next to Sid/Geno. Either via trade or draft. It'd help us immensely. Especially if we want to keep Staal happy as a 3C in a salary cap era.

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05-20-2012, 10:50 AM
  #36
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Originally Posted by mpp9 View Post
I'd like us to have one skilled forward in the near future on an ELC playing next to Sid/Geno. Either via trade or draft. It'd help us immensely. Especially if we want to keep Staal happy as a 3C in a salary cap era.
Will Shero and Bylsma allow that to happen though?

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05-20-2012, 11:50 AM
  #37
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The thing with that is that it's a mixed message. I love letting young guys earn their spot. That's how it should be, as it breeds competition, and competition typically breeds success.

You have to give chances though. With Tangradi, you're not going to get the most out of him playing him with Joe Vitale for 6 mins of ice a game. It's just not going to happen. You have to play him with some more skilled guys, and you have to give him some ice time.

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05-20-2012, 12:00 PM
  #38
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Will Shero and Bylsma allow that to happen though?
they need to be a better player than what we have available. Shero and especially Bylsma don't give players roster spots to grow in to.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JTG View Post
The thing with that is that it's a mixed message. I love letting young guys earn their spot. That's how it should be, as it breeds competition, and competition typically breeds success.
On Shero's end, this is handled very well in my opinion. You'll get your chance when you are one of the best 12 forwards available. That will probably happen because of injuries.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JTG View Post
You have to give chances though. With Tangradi, you're not going to get the most out of him playing him with Joe Vitale for 6 mins of ice a game. It's just not going to happen. You have to play him with some more skilled guys, and you have to give him some ice time.
Then Bylsma takes over. I honestly think the 4th line spot is fine. The lack of consistent minutes is what bothers me.

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05-20-2012, 12:25 PM
  #39
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they need to be a better player than what we have available. Shero and especially Bylsma don't give players roster spots to grow in to.
Well the thing is that Shero signs 4th line grinders who will never be more than what they are, and don't really help this team all that much win games, then Bylsma plays them no matter how well they do or don't play. Sure those grinders are better than our prospects right now because they have played in the NHL for a number of seasons. The hope though is that the prospects will eventually be a lot better than they are if given an opportunity. At least with the prospects, they have a future with the organization where the 4th line grinders will be gone in a year or two most likely.

I'm not getting into another argument on the matter though.

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05-20-2012, 01:32 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by eXile59 View Post
So why don't you just say "The Pen's should draft more Europeans". A lot of those guys have very little to no NHL experience. The truth is that Wings are down right average when it comes to drafting over the last several years. You count Mursak who has had less success at the NHL than a guy like Jeffrey. It's really not an impressive list prospect list at all.
I think you may need to read closer, Mrazek is not the same person as Mursak. One is a high potential goaltending prospect and the other is a bust. I never mentioned Mursak.

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05-20-2012, 02:02 PM
  #41
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I think you may need to read closer, Mrazek is not the same person as Mursak. One is a high potential goaltending prospect and the other is a bust. I never mentioned Mursak.
Okay wrong player. Point stays the same. Their drafting success is similar to the Pens in the time Shero has taken over. The Wings are very good at drafting in a market that not other teams put as much attention to but the Pens have done a fine job doing the same while drafting low.

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05-20-2012, 03:51 PM
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phaneuf_fan_3 View Post
Those 4 are it for the players with upside for the Pens in the last 6 drafts. The Wings have Smith, Nyqvist, Tatar, Sheahan, Jankrok, Mrazek, Jurco and who knows what else from last yrs draft. The point is they have at least 1 really solid prospect/player from each draft and more than 1 in several. The Pens drafting has been lagging hard and looks even worse when you compare it to one of the best draft teams on the Wings.
No, it doesn't. Like I said earlier, "upside" means nothing until it translates into something at the NHL level, and Detroit's drafts during the Shero period haven't yielded any better NHL results than Pittsburgh's.

Your entire argument is based on this:

Quote:
but im sure [the Wings' prospects] will end up good just like every other year.
...which couldn't be more outdated, since the Wings haven't gotten any better tangible NHL yields from the draft than the Pens since Zetterberg in '99, as I've outlined many times before.

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05-20-2012, 04:43 PM
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eXile59 View Post
So why don't you just say "The Pen's should draft more Europeans". A lot of those guys have very little to no NHL experience. The truth is that Wings are down right average when it comes to drafting over the last several years. You count Mursak who has had less success at the NHL than a guy like Jeffrey. It's really not an impressive list prospect list at all.
They are much worse than average.

If you follow the link, you will see that the last time Detroit had a good, but not great draft was 2002. Since then they have drafted one single player (Johan Franzen) that is a top 6 forward or top 4 defenseman in this league.

Detroit is hugely overrated on their drafting and has done poorly for the last 10 years people.

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/draft/t...r00005492.html

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05-20-2012, 05:38 PM
  #44
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This has been talked about a LOT, but when we talk about it during the season when the Pens are rolling, it falls on deaf ears. We've stopped the pipeline under Bylsma, and it's really hurt us. Shero is to blame to some degree as well, because he needs to take away some of Bylsma's 'toys' for the good of the franchise when it starts to become an issue. NOTE: apparently, one of the main problems between Joel Quenneville and Stan Bowman this season was the fact Quenneville at one point during the season wanted to keep John Scott in his lineup nightly, mainly because he felt his team wasn't big, strong or tough enough without him. So Bowman traded Scott to the Rangers. Issue resolved. Oh sure, their relationship was a bit fractured this year, but apparently both are staying and the issue is gone. THAT is what Ray Shero needs to do with AT LEAST Paul Martin and Craig Adams this summer. At least.

This isn't about drafting early in Round 1 vs. drafting late. This is about how a 26-year-old Joe Vitale STILL can't play a regular fourth-line role with regular PK time because the immortal Craig Adams is still ahead of him on the Bylsma depth chart. This is about Eric Tangradi not getting a regular spot on the fourth line, plus second PP unit minutes and a shot at earning more with strong play/injuries in the top 9, and all this mainly because Richard Park was ahead of him. And this is about this off-season, where it's pretty clear to me that we have to make significant changes/decisions on defense to provide legitimate opportunities for at LEAST TWO of our young rearguards. But will we?

Remember when Richard Park signed with us? I would say MOST people here felt he was a good pickup for Wilkes-Barre/Scranton. Some of us, however, knew he was going to take away time from the likes of Vitale and Tangradi. Just because of the type of player he is and what Bylsma prefers.

I was calling for Bylsma's head when we couldn't get Malkin going last season. When we kept dicking him around on the wing. I kept insisting that it doesn't really matter how good our record is under Bylsma, because if we can't maximize Malkin's $8.7 million cap hit, we fail as a franchise.

Well, the same holds true with producing talent from the farm system. As a max cap team, we simply can't afford to NOT have guys taking jobs at ELC prices when they prove capable of doing so.

So something has to drastically change here. Either Bylsma adjusts and goes back to his developmental roots (he WAS this organization's AHL coach briefly, for God sakes), OR we need to move on and find someone whose strengths are Bylsma's weaknesses.

The solution is definitely NOT bringing in more veterans at the expense of ice time for our NHL-ready youth.

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05-20-2012, 05:39 PM
  #45
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What Detroit has done is draft a ton of boom or bust guys who have high skill, which tend to be players that hockey fans like because they see the potential. Screw if they play in the NHL...they can still handle really well.

That's sort of where I butt heads with some around here. People want high skill, but I'd rather have a guy with less skill who is more likely to play in the NHL, and plays in North America where we have guys to keep close tabs on him.

And as far as us not playing younger guys, there is going to come a time where we have no choice due to financial implications, and that time is coming very soon.

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05-20-2012, 05:54 PM
  #46
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They are much worse than average.

If you follow the link, you will see that the last time Detroit had a good, but not great draft was 2002. Since then they have drafted one single player (Johan Franzen) that is a top 6 forward or top 4 defenseman in this league.

Detroit is hugely overrated on their drafting and has done poorly for the last 10 years people.

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/draft/t...r00005492.html
Wow. That's pretty telling right there.

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05-20-2012, 05:58 PM
  #47
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Detroit is hugely overrated on their drafting and has done poorly for the last 10 years people.
This. People talk about drafting a star, let alone a legit NHLer, outside of the 2nd round has something to do with scouting. It's a crap shoot. If a team knew that their 7th round pick would turn out to be a top 6 forward, don't you think they'd at least make him their second pick?

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05-20-2012, 06:24 PM
  #48
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This. People talk about drafting a star, let alone a legit NHLer, outside of the 2nd round has something to do with scouting. It's a crap shoot. If a team knew that their 7th round pick would turn out to be a top 6 forward, don't you think they'd at least make him their second pick?
Exactly, and this isn't like the NFL, where you can look at a 2nd, 3rd or 4th round pick and say "hmm, he can make an impact in the future". We all know that in the NHL, it takes a couple years or more for these guys to develop. Guys picked in the later rounds either become good NHL players, or busts. It's a gamble.

Nashville took Pekka Rinne with the last pick in the 8th round in 2004, we took a goaltender with the first pick in the 8th round, David Brown.

Detroit took Datsyuk with the 171st overall pick in the 6th round in 1998, we were two spots ahead of Detroit and we picked Jan Fadrny with the 169th overall pick.

Doesn't mean our scouting and drafting was bad, teams just get lucky with certain picks in the late rounds.

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05-20-2012, 06:24 PM
  #49
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This is kind of like déjà vu for long time members.... Because this was said about CP.

I always felt the witch hunt for CP was really ****ing stupid....

He was handcuffed by the Pens financial situation for close to a decade. If you go back and search on these forums, many posters were screaming for him to be fired. A big part of this was his supposed weak drafting, which by all rights was a legit argument at that time.

Look back now and see how his drafting was so huge for the current franchise and helping them win a cup...

CP drafted:

Malone
Scuds
Orpik
Army (used to land Hossa)
Christensen (used to land Hossa)
Talbot
MAF
Moulson (not his fault he was sent packing)
GoGo (turned into Neal and Nisky)
Letang
Vitale

Crosby and Malkin were no brainers so I obviously left them out and may have forgotten a name or two as well.

CP is a huge reason for the core of this franchise and back in '06 people were fed up with him. I never understood it... And CP always had the balls to make big moves, which I am not sure Shero does (as I noted once before this could be a good or bad trait for Shero).

Basically we need to give Shero's drafts some time to mature... I am not sold on their ability to draft and develop high end fwd talent, but we will see how BB shakes out. However, Shero and company seem to have an eye for blueliners.

If Despres, Morrow and just one of Harrington, Bortuzzo or Strait works out, I will be pretty happy with their drafting.

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05-20-2012, 06:57 PM
  #50
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I might be wrong but I think Greg Malone was head amateur scout for both CP & Shero for a little bit. He probably had more to do with who was selected than the GM's.

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