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Old
05-20-2012, 07:14 PM
  #51
Ogrezilla
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Originally Posted by MrBurgundy View Post
Well the thing is that Shero signs 4th line grinders who will never be more than what they are, and don't really help this team all that much win games, then Bylsma plays them no matter how well they do or don't play. Sure those grinders are better than our prospects right now because they have played in the NHL for a number of seasons. The hope though is that the prospects will eventually be a lot better than they are if given an opportunity. At least with the prospects, they have a future with the organization where the 4th line grinders will be gone in a year or two most likely.

I'm not getting into another argument on the matter though.
I get what you're saying and if injuries never happened I'd be upset about it. But with the inevitability of injuries I think signing a few of those guys is the right move. Once the young guys get their opening we should get a good view of them. That is the disconnect that I see. I honestly hope they talk about it this offseason. If Bylsma refuses to change how he handles it, I'd love for Shero to keep those spots open for the young guys and suck it up. If it doesn't work out fix it at the deadline. Not ideal, but if Bylsma can't use his vets appropriately, don't give them to him


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05-20-2012, 07:45 PM
  #52
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And as far as us not playing younger guys, there is going to come a time where we have no choice due to financial implications, and that time is coming very soon.
While I do agree with this, there are reasons for playing young talent in the system over veterans, OTHER than financial. Like to actually have a better team.

There were several examples this past season where we didn't ice our best lineup...just our most experienced.

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05-20-2012, 08:41 PM
  #53
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So teams with a lot of success, like Detroit and recently Pittsburgh, hit less often on top pairing defensemen or top or second line forwards? And have lineups harder for rookies to crack?

Yeah, I wish we hit a home run every year, but it does not seem like the Pens are becoming the Pirates as far as team management either. The Pens seem overall to be about where they should be. With a lot to be determined when the players drafted actually do get their chance, which is a lot later than on a lot of teams.

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05-20-2012, 08:50 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by JTG View Post
And as far as us not playing younger guys, there is going to come a time where we have no choice due to financial implications, and that time is coming very soon.
I don't think that's true, considering players like Park, Adams, and Asham make (or nearly make) the league minimum and less the some players on their ELC. And they had pretty much no business being on the ice for any NHL team at the end of the season.

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05-20-2012, 08:53 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by GoGuins8711 View Post
I don't think that's true, considering players like Park, Adams, and Asham make (or nearly make) the league minimum and less the some players on their ELC. And they had pretty much no business being on the ice for any NHL team at the end of the season.
I'm not gearing it towards the 4th liners. I was gearing that more towards guys that make some pretty good money, but can be replaced.

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05-20-2012, 09:07 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by JTG View Post
I'm not gearing it towards the 4th liners. I was gearing that more towards guys that make some pretty good money, but can be replaced.
There's plenty of Mike Comrie's, desperate for a contract, that can be sign for the league min each offseason too. That I'm sure Blysma and Shero would probably rather defer to, rather than giving a youngster an actual chance.

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05-20-2012, 09:08 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by GoGuins8711 View Post
There's plenty of Mike Comrie's, desperate for a contract, that can be sign for the league min each offseason too. That I'm sure Blysma and Shero would probably rather defer to, rather than giving a youngster an actual chance.
That's the problem.

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05-20-2012, 09:16 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by GoGuins8711 View Post
There's plenty of Mike Comrie's, desperate for a contract, that can be sign for the league min each offseason too. That I'm sure Blysma and Shero would probably rather defer to, rather than giving a youngster an actual chance.
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That's the problem.
are other teams really leaving high-minute roster spots open for unproven rookies? If so, are they actually good teams? I've seen Marchand and Clowe pointed to as guys who were given a chance to struggle through their rookie seasons and came out better for it, but were they given a top 6 spot out of camp to do it? Or were they given 3rd/4th line spots and by season's end upgraded?

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05-20-2012, 09:25 PM
  #59
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This has been talked about a LOT, but when we talk about it during the season when the Pens are rolling, it falls on deaf ears. We've stopped the pipeline under Bylsma, and it's really hurt us. Shero is to blame to some degree as well, because he needs to take away some of Bylsma's 'toys' for the good of the franchise when it starts to become an issue. NOTE: apparently, one of the main problems between Joel Quenneville and Stan Bowman this season was the fact Quenneville at one point during the season wanted to keep John Scott in his lineup nightly, mainly because he felt his team wasn't big, strong or tough enough without him. So Bowman traded Scott to the Rangers. Issue resolved. Oh sure, their relationship was a bit fractured this year, but apparently both are staying and the issue is gone. THAT is what Ray Shero needs to do with AT LEAST Paul Martin and Craig Adams this summer. At least.

This isn't about drafting early in Round 1 vs. drafting late. This is about how a 26-year-old Joe Vitale STILL can't play a regular fourth-line role with regular PK time because the immortal Craig Adams is still ahead of him on the Bylsma depth chart. This is about Eric Tangradi not getting a regular spot on the fourth line, plus second PP unit minutes and a shot at earning more with strong play/injuries in the top 9, and all this mainly because Richard Park was ahead of him. And this is about this off-season, where it's pretty clear to me that we have to make significant changes/decisions on defense to provide legitimate opportunities for at LEAST TWO of our young rearguards. But will we?

Remember when Richard Park signed with us? I would say MOST people here felt he was a good pickup for Wilkes-Barre/Scranton. Some of us, however, knew he was going to take away time from the likes of Vitale and Tangradi. Just because of the type of player he is and what Bylsma prefers.

I was calling for Bylsma's head when we couldn't get Malkin going last season. When we kept dicking him around on the wing. I kept insisting that it doesn't really matter how good our record is under Bylsma, because if we can't maximize Malkin's $8.7 million cap hit, we fail as a franchise.

Well, the same holds true with producing talent from the farm system. As a max cap team, we simply can't afford to NOT have guys taking jobs at ELC prices when they prove capable of doing so.

So something has to drastically change here. Either Bylsma adjusts and goes back to his developmental roots (he WAS this organization's AHL coach briefly, for God sakes), OR we need to move on and find someone whose strengths are Bylsma's weaknesses.

The solution is definitely NOT bringing in more veterans at the expense of ice time for our NHL-ready youth.
Thats a great post right there.

The thing that has me tearing out my hair is that after spending a ton of money on defense and drafting a never ending supply of defense... this summer will be spent corrceting problems on D. AND the Pens still have holes in the top six.

Please correct me if I'm wrong but did Shero say that one of the reasons he was OK with drafting defense is because Sid and Malkin can carry the offense. I'm hoping I just read something wrong.

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05-20-2012, 09:31 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by Ogrezilla View Post
are other teams really leaving high-minute roster spots open for unproven rookies? If so, are they actually good teams? I've seen Marchand and Clowe pointed to as guys who were given a chance to struggle through their rookie seasons and came out better for it, but were they given a top 6 spot out of camp to do it? Or were they given 3rd/4th line spots and by season's end upgraded?
Chris ****ing Kreider! He hasn't even played a ****ing regular season game yet. See? Good things can happen if you have a little bit a faith in a player.

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05-20-2012, 09:51 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by GoGuins8711 View Post
Chris ****ing Kreider! He hasn't even played a ****ing regular season game yet. See? Good things can happen if you have a little bit a faith in a player.
when we have Chris Kreider in our prospect pool I'll agree with you.

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05-20-2012, 09:55 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by GoGuins8711 View Post
Chris ****ing Kreider! He hasn't even played a ****ing regular season game yet. See? Good things can happen if you have a little bit a faith in a player.
Chris Kreider, Brayden Schenn, Dwight King, Matt Read, Sean Couturier, Adam Henrique...

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05-20-2012, 09:57 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by Ogrezilla View Post
when we have Chris Kreider in our prospect pool I'll agree with you.
You think he would have got a shot on this team? We would see Craig Adams in the top 6 before we would see that.

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05-20-2012, 10:05 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by Ogrezilla View Post
when we have Chris Kreider in our prospect pool I'll agree with you.
You're high on something if you think Blysma would have actually iced him in the playoffs with 0 NHL experience, not even training camps. That's about as unproven as you can get, like you asked, and yet he's been given an opportunity to make an impact for the Rangers at their most critical time in their season and has delivered.

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05-20-2012, 10:10 PM
  #65
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You make exceptions for certain prospects. It's hard to say what Bylsma would have done with Kreider because we've never had a forward prospect of that caliber. Kreider didn't start out getting huge minutes, but he kept flashing in the minutes he did get and then quickly started producing as his role got a bit bigger. The guy is a special prospect though. Basically a plug and play player as soon as he signed his pro deal.

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05-20-2012, 10:13 PM
  #66
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Well to be fair to Bylsma, he did play Strait, Despres and Tangradi in the playoffs this year. He could have easily had Shero recall Williams and Picard or put Ben Lovejoy out there.

Bylsma has no problem giving young guys ice time, it's just that some Pens fans (including myself at times) want to see guys like Tangradi and Despres in the top 6 and the top 4, if Bylsma doesn't feel that they can contribute there then he won't put them there, it's that simple.

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05-20-2012, 10:14 PM
  #67
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Originally Posted by eXile59 View Post
Chris Kreider, Brayden Schenn, Dwight King, Matt Read, Sean Couturier, Adam Henrique...
Thank you for your short list of rookies who are way better than Eric Tangradi. I guess I'll still point out that all of these players except for Kreider started the season in the bottom 6 and earned their way up the roster. Some of them, particularly read, made the jump very quickly. Some made the jump when an injury presented an opening like Henrique. The rest finished the season in the bottom 6 because that's where they belong.

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Originally Posted by GoGuins8711 View Post
You're high on something if you think Blysma would have actually iced him in the playoffs with 0 NHL experience, not even training camps. That's about as unproven as you can get, like you asked, and yet he's been given an opportunity to make an impact for the Rangers at their most critical time in their season and has delivered.
you're right. But its a pretty rare occurrence and they obviously think he's a better player for that scoring role right now than other guys they have available. Eric Tangradi, as of the end of the season, was a better player than our 4th liners and nobody else on the roster. Tortarella isn't playing Kreider because he wants him to get better for next year. He is playing him because he is one of their top 12 forwards. That was my point from the beginning I just lost that part in the later discussion.

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Originally Posted by Eyes of Orpik View Post
Well to be fair to Bylsma, he did play Strait, Despres and Tangradi in the playoffs this year. He could have easily had Shero recall Williams and Picard or put Ben Lovejoy out there.

Bylsma has no problem giving young guys ice time, it's just that some Pens fans (including myself at times) want to see guys like Tangradi and Despres in the top 6 and the top 4, if Bylsma doesn't feel that they can contribute there then he won't put them there, it's that simple.
I still haven't seen a single example of a coach doing what some of you are suggesting we should do. That is, play a guy in the top 6 or top 4 position you hope he can eventually play in over other players who are currently better suited for that role. I have seen a lot of examples of rookies who were very good and already better than the vets on the team, but none where a guy like Tangradi or Despres was thrown into a top 6 or top 4 position in front of more suitable players. You could argue about Despres with how our D played but Tangradi was at best our 10th or 11th best forward. Give him a good steady 4th line position going in to camp. Maybe he can bump Cooke down pretty quickly. If we see Tangradi in the top 6 this year I hope he has to outplay someone other than TK and Dupuis to get it.


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05-20-2012, 11:03 PM
  #68
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This is kind of like dj vu for long time members.... Because this was said about CP.

I always felt the witch hunt for CP was really ****ing stupid....

He was handcuffed by the Pens financial situation for close to a decade. If you go back and search on these forums, many posters were screaming for him to be fired. A big part of this was his supposed weak drafting, which by all rights was a legit argument at that time.

Look back now and see how his drafting was so huge for the current franchise and helping them win a cup...

CP drafted:

Malone
Scuds
Orpik
Army (used to land Hossa)
Christensen (used to land Hossa)
Talbot
MAF
Moulson (not his fault he was sent packing)
GoGo (turned into Neal and Nisky)
Letang
Vitale

Crosby and Malkin were no brainers so I obviously left them out and may have forgotten a name or two as well.

CP is a huge reason for the core of this franchise and back in '06 people were fed up with him. I never understood it... And CP always had the balls to make big moves, which I am not sure Shero does (as I noted once before this could be a good or bad trait for Shero).

Basically we need to give Shero's drafts some time to mature... I am not sold on their ability to draft and develop high end fwd talent, but we will see how BB shakes out. However, Shero and company seem to have an eye for blueliners.

If Despres, Morrow and just one of Harrington, Bortuzzo or Strait works out, I will be pretty happy with their drafting.
My biggest problem with CP wasn't his drafting, it was his trading as a "seller". He brought back marginal NHL players and long-shot prospects instead of acquiring additional draft picks. Particularly in retrospect, Patrick's amateur scouts were far better than his pro scouts, and it's a shame he didn't recognize that.

Well, I should say, his trading and his insistence on putting players like Shane Endicott and Lasse Prjeta on the NHL roster instead of Talbot and Christensen.... (say what you will about Christensen - he's still in the NHL, unlike Endicott and Prjeta).

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05-20-2012, 11:05 PM
  #69
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Originally Posted by Eyes of Orpik View Post
Well to be fair to Bylsma, he did play Strait, Despres and Tangradi in the playoffs this year. He could have easily had Shero recall Williams and Picard or put Ben Lovejoy out there.

Bylsma has no problem giving young guys ice time, it's just that some Pens fans (including myself at times) want to see guys like Tangradi and Despres in the top 6 and the top 4, if Bylsma doesn't feel that they can contribute there then he won't put them there, it's that simple.

Just because it amuses me, I'll just note the following - during the 1990-1991 season, the Penguins played a very talented rookie on the third line, all the way through their winning the Stanley Cup. He had to earn his way into a top 6 role the following year. This was with Craig Patrick as GM and Bob Johnson as coach. You may remember him, since he helped the Flyers eliminate the Penguins this year. If that still doesn't ring a bell, you might want to look at the Art Ross and MVP banners in Consol.

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05-20-2012, 11:09 PM
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Just because it amuses me, I'll just note the following - during the 1990-1991 season, the Penguins played a very talented rookie on the third line, all the way through their winning the Stanley Cup. He had to earn his way into a top 6 role the following year. This was with Craig Patrick as GM and Bob Johnson as coach. You may remember him, since he helped the Flyers eliminate the Penguins this year. If that still doesn't ring a bell, you might want to look at the Art Ross and MVP banners in Consol.
You know the difference between the 3rd line & the 4th line right? It's about 12 minutes of ice time. Pretty big difference.

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05-20-2012, 11:42 PM
  #71
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you're right. But its a pretty rare occurrence and they obviously think he's a better player for that scoring role right now than other guys they have available. Eric Tangradi, as of the end of the season, was a better player than our 4th liners and nobody else on the roster. Tortarella isn't playing Kreider because he wants him to get better for next year. He is playing him because he is one of their top 12 forwards. That was my point from the beginning I just lost that part in the later discussion.
If you give Blysma Chris Krieder this postseason, he doesn't even get a sniff of the ice. Some veteran and his almighty NHL experience gets that slot. Plain and simple.

We aren't engaging what the full potential of our roster could be by playing Tangradi practically four minutes a game with Adams and Asham. I've seen goons that can't skate with a lower hockey IQ than my brother with downs syndrome get a better opportunity than that. And there was no excuse for that, especially during the regular season. If the 4th line is the only place he fits for now, then fine, but at least give him some actual icetime, and a few odd shifts with one of the 3C's isn't going to wreck our season. But I guess we can keep ourselves in the dark and hope he magically becomes some NHL superstar overnight, without going through any growing pains at the NHL level.

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05-20-2012, 11:59 PM
  #72
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Originally Posted by Eyes of Orpik View Post
Well to be fair to Bylsma, he did play Strait, Despres and Tangradi in the playoffs this year. He could have easily had Shero recall Williams and Picard or put Ben Lovejoy out there.

Bylsma has no problem giving young guys ice time, it's just that some Pens fans (including myself at times) want to see guys like Tangradi and Despres in the top 6 and the top 4, if Bylsma doesn't feel that they can contribute there then he won't put them there, it's that simple.
Is this a serious post?

Dan HAD to play those guys because of the suspensions and he DID play Lovejoy over Des or did you forget why the Pens lost game 3???

DB wins game 4 and 5 with 3C's and decides that dressing Adams and JV and rolling 4 lines, which worked so well in the 3 losses, was the way to go.

Everyone knew what was gonna happen when we saw that lineup.

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05-21-2012, 12:15 AM
  #73
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Can you guess how many draft picks since picking Jordan Staal 2nd overall in 2006 have "made it" and are full time NHLers?

If you guessed zero you got it!

In fact in our last 4 draft classes the players we've chosen have played a total of 19 games in the NHL to this point. While I hope something changes and the guys from the past 2 drafts can really make it as full time NHLers I was very surprised how poor the drafting has been since Staal (who was 1 of about 6 cant miss players that year).
Yes, but he traded a lot of picks away which in turn brought a finals appearance and a cup to the Penguins. People tend to forget that when bringing this subject up. Would you give up the Cup for those picks?

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05-21-2012, 12:37 AM
  #74
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Is this a serious post?

Dan HAD to play those guys because of the suspensions and he DID play Lovejoy over Des or did you forget why the Pens lost game 3???

DB wins game 4 and 5 with 3C's and decides that dressing Adams and JV and rolling 4 lines, which worked so well in the 3 losses, was the way to go.

Everyone knew what was gonna happen when we saw that lineup.
I'm saying he could have played Lovejoy in games 4, 5 and 6. Paul Martin was injured, he let Despres play and dressed 7 D so Strait could play. He could have easily went with 7 D of Orpik-Letang, Niskanen-Michalek, Picard-Lovejoy-Engellend.

As for Tangradi's ice time, DB could have easily preferred Williams to be recalled.

I'm just saying that Bylsma has no problem letting young guys play in big game situations. And what a way to gain experience by playing 3 elimination games, going 2-1. Those young guys experienced what it's like to win a couple of games in a series, and know what it's like to lose a Stanley Cup Playoff series.

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05-21-2012, 12:49 AM
  #75
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Originally Posted by Eyes of Orpik View Post
I'm saying he could have played Lovejoy in games 4, 5 and 6. Paul Martin was injured, he let Despres play and dressed 7 D so Strait could play. He could have easily went with 7 D of Orpik-Letang, Niskanen-Michalek, Picard-Lovejoy-Engellend.

As for Tangradi's ice time, DB could have easily preferred Williams to be recalled.

I'm just saying that Bylsma has no problem letting young guys play in big game situations. And what a way to gain experience by playing 3 elimination games, going 2-1. Those young guys experienced what it's like to win a couple of games in a series, and know what it's like to lose a Stanley Cup Playoff series.
This is exactly why I don't understand where the "Bylsma hates young players" thinking comes from. It just seems like people want him to blindly put these guys in high spots in the line-up without earning it. Wasn't the ultimate goal to win games? Forget the fact that Joe Vitale made the team and played most of the season. Forget the fact that collectively they decided on Kennedy was more important than Jagr. Forget the fact that he gave Morrow and Despres got long looks in the preseason 2 years in a row. Forget the fact that he gave Tangradi a spot right out of camp 2 years ago and hung onto him for a little while even though he was struggling big time (self admitted).

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