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Old
05-21-2012, 12:14 AM
  #76
Novak Djokovic
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Just read some posts and thought I'd mention this:

You guys are underrating Harrington. He's the second best defenseman in the OHL behind Doug Hamilton. He was also the most reliable shutdown defenseman for Canada at the World Juniors.

I think he has the potential to become a very solid shutdown defenseman in the league. They aren't the #1 defenseman of your team (except for Girardi), but definitely very valuable.

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05-21-2012, 12:58 AM
  #77
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Originally Posted by Freeptop View Post
My biggest problem with CP wasn't his drafting, it was his trading as a "seller". He brought back marginal NHL players and long-shot prospects instead of acquiring additional draft picks. Particularly in retrospect, Patrick's amateur scouts were far better than his pro scouts, and it's a shame he didn't recognize that.
I couldn't disagree more. I think Patrick and his scouting team (the people who were reportedly "jumping for joy" after we got Beech, Sivek and Lupaschuk for Jagr) did a piss-poor job for a long time (about mid 90s to early 2000s), being the anti-Detroit with their uncanny ability to fail with European picks and often taking size over skill with their North Americans. Before Orpik and Army we had 1st round busts for seven consecutive years (Bergqvist, Wells, Morozov, Hillier, Döme, Kraft, Koltsov) with an average draft position of 22. We also missed with every single 2nd rounder between 1990 and 2003, thirteen in total (12 if you discount Park who became a regular much later). This destroyed our prospect depth for a long time. And when we needed cheap young talent to step in, there simply was none ready. The better drafts during the 2000s came too late to change that.

Patrick IMO was a far superior trader than drafter and prospect developer. When he had the resources he was very good at acquiring pro players. And even later he managed to get something out of some busts via trades (Skrbek for Boughner, Wells for Barnes and Woolley come to mind) or found some worthwhile waiver guys. But eventually the Pens were so broke that he couldn't take on any notable salaries so he effectively sold for nothing. Why he didn't insist on draft picks in return we'll never know (I suspect there was more cash involved than what became public, thus lowering the pure "hockey return").


Last edited by Burgs: 05-21-2012 at 01:03 AM.
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05-21-2012, 01:11 AM
  #78
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Originally Posted by Serbian Power View Post
Just read some posts and thought I'd mention this:

You guys are underrating Harrington. He's the second best defenseman in the OHL behind Doug Hamilton. He was also the most reliable shutdown defenseman for Canada at the World Juniors.

I think he has the potential to become a very solid shutdown defenseman in the league. They aren't the #1 defenseman of your team (except for Girardi), but definitely very valuable.

I really like him. Personally I put him on par with Despres and just slightly behind Morrow because I think Morrow has a higher ceiling, but I think he thinks the game on the defensive side as well as Morrow does on the offensive side.

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05-21-2012, 02:54 AM
  #79
Rowdy Roddy Peeper
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Originally Posted by eXile59 View Post
You think he would have got a shot on this team? We would see Craig Adams in the top 6 before we would see that.
We have no way of knowing, because we've never have a forward prospect under Bylsma who was regarded anywhere near as highly, have we?

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05-21-2012, 05:03 AM
  #80
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Originally Posted by GoGuins8711 View Post
If you give Blysma Chris Krieder this postseason, he doesn't even get a sniff of the ice. Some veteran and his almighty NHL experience gets that slot. Plain and simple.
You're probably right. Though we did see Strait and Despres jump in over Martin and Lovejoy in the playoffs. The key difference between Kreider and Tangradi is that Kreider isn't on the roster because he needs to be in the NHL to develop into a good player. He is in the NHL because he IS a good player.

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Originally Posted by GoGuins8711 View Post
We aren't engaging what the full potential of our roster could be by playing Tangradi practically four minutes a game with Adams and Asham. If the 4th line is the only place he fits for now, then fine, but at least give him some actual icetime, and a few odd shifts with one of the 3C's isn't going to wreck our season.
I have pretty adamantly agreed with this point all year. This has gotten so far off track from my original point that we actually agree with one another now.

My entire point was against the idea of a guy like Tangradi being given a position in the top 6 to start the season. Chris Kreider is a better scorer than most of his NHL teammates so he is playing in a scoring position. Eric Tangradi isn't a better anything than most of his NHL teammates so he isn't playing any role above most his his teammates. He shouldn't be given a top 6 spot until he is one of our top 4 or 5 wings. This camp I'd like to see him competing with Cooke for that 3rd line wing position. If Cooke outplays him Cooke should keep that spot. Give Tangradi a consistent 4th line spot and hopefully some 2nd unit powerplay time. If he improves throughout the season, move him up the line-up.


Last edited by Ogrezilla: 05-21-2012 at 05:09 AM.
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Old
05-21-2012, 09:52 AM
  #81
Hans Rutherford
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Originally Posted by Ogrezilla View Post
I have pretty adamantly agreed with this point all year. This has gotten so far off track from my original point that we actually agree with one another now.

My entire point was against the idea of a guy like Tangradi being given a position in the top 6 to start the season. Chris Kreider is a better scorer than most of his NHL teammates so he is playing in a scoring position. Eric Tangradi isn't a better anything than most of his NHL teammates so he isn't playing any role above most his his teammates. He shouldn't be given a top 6 spot until he is one of our top 4 or 5 wings. This camp I'd like to see him competing with Cooke for that 3rd line wing position. If Cooke outplays him Cooke should keep that spot. Give Tangradi a consistent 4th line spot and hopefully some 2nd unit powerplay time. If he improves throughout the season, move him up the line-up.
Yeah, I remember you agreeing with that before. I just haven't really vented my frustration over the matter in awhile. But I'm not saying Tangradi deserves a top-six role over anybody at all. Just that we should be testing the waters with him a little better. He easily has the potential to be better than Cooke, Kennedy or Sullivan but we aren't allowing ourselves to find that out. It could just be a matter of a few months with some reasonable icetime for everything to click for him and surpass them and possibly earn one of those roles and to make us a better hockey team. But putting him of the 4th line with scarce minutes and randomly scratching him night in and night out, has to be the dumbest way to handle somebody like that. He should have just stayed in the AHL and had some consistent icetime.

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05-21-2012, 09:59 AM
  #82
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I can't wait till we finally have a legit forward prospect other than Tangradi that is approaching NHL readiness. This same discussion about Tangradi has gone on for what seems like an eternity.

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05-21-2012, 11:28 AM
  #83
eXile59
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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
We have no way of knowing, because we've never have a forward prospect under Bylsma who was regarded anywhere near as highly, have we?
We've seen Vitale benched for playing well, Tangradi buried, & Jeffereys just disappears despite producing. Mean while Park had a solid stint on the first line when injuries hit. Of course we all know Bylsma is infallible & could never have a problem trusting younger players.

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05-21-2012, 11:29 AM
  #84
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Originally Posted by Shady Machine View Post
I can't wait till we finally have a legit forward prospect other than Tangradi that is approaching NHL readiness. This same discussion about Tangradi has gone on for what seems like an eternity.
Well...we have Beau Bennett, consider him a legit forward prospect?

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05-21-2012, 11:33 AM
  #85
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Originally Posted by eXile59 View Post
We've seen Vitale benched for playing well, Tangradi buried, & Jeffereys just disappears despite producing. Mean while Park had a solid stint on the first line when injuries hit. Of course we all know Bylsma is infallible & could never have a problem trusting younger players.
I'd argue that you are ignoring the circumstances of an actual NHL season, but what does any of that have to do with a high level prospect like Kreider? You are completely ignoring what we are saying and just spewing the same stuff about bottom 6 guys.

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05-21-2012, 12:00 PM
  #86
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Tangradi earned himself a spot on the 4th line. It's a joke DB took him out of the lineup in the playoffs.

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05-21-2012, 12:01 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by Eyes of Orpik View Post
Well...we have Beau Bennett, consider him a legit forward prospect?
yes but not quite "approaching NHL readiness"

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05-21-2012, 12:04 PM
  #88
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Originally Posted by Ogrezilla View Post
I'd argue that you are ignoring the circumstances of an actual NHL season, but what does any of that have to do with a high level prospect like Kreider? You are completely ignoring what we are saying and just spewing the same stuff about bottom 6 guys.
Oh so only elite prospects should get a chance.

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05-21-2012, 12:10 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by eXile59 View Post
Oh so only elite prospects should get a chance.
no but they have a much larger impact on the team than a 4th line guy battling for 7 minutes of ice time.

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05-21-2012, 12:21 PM
  #90
Shady Machine
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Originally Posted by Eyes of Orpik View Post
Well...we have Beau Bennett, consider him a legit forward prospect?
Yes but I said "approaching NHL readiness".

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Old
05-21-2012, 01:27 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by eXile59 View Post
Oh so only elite prospects should get a chance.
you are completely ignoring the discussion at hand. I have said over and over that I agree, Tangradi should have been given a better opportunity to do something. That is not what we were talking about but you keep bringing it up anyway.

Young players can be split in to two categories for my purpose here: prospects who are already good enough to play the position you want them to play and prospects who are not good enough to play the position you want them to play yet. Chris Kreider is in the first group while Eric Tangradi is in the second group. You don't need to be an elite prospect to be in the first group, you just have to be at a certain level of development.

As jigglyfly has brought up quite a few times, some players come into the NHL ready to play like Crosby and Staal while guys like Marchand and Clowe need some time to adjust. The first group will jump right in to a big role because they are already good enough to play there. The second group will start with a more limited role and hopefully develop their game to the point that they can move up the roster. Tangradi is in that second group.

Kreider wasn't given a scoring wing spot because they hope he can turn in to a scoring winger. Kreider was given a scoring winger spot because he already is a scoring winger. Eric Tangradi is not an NHL caliber scoring winger right now. They are very different situations that have very little to do with a player being given a chance and have everything to do with the current ability of the player. It's obviously a risky move to put in a guy like Kreider at that point of the playoffs (and I doubt Bylsma would do it) but it isn't the same thing is putting Tangradi in that spot.

Give Tangradi a roster spot next year. Fill the top 9 without Tangradi to start camp. Let him start with a consistent shift on the 4th line with Vitale and probably Adams (ugh). If he proves that he is a better player than Cooke or TK (or whoever our 3rd line wingers are) now he's on the 3rd line and we have a good 3rd liner on the 4th line. If there's an injury, give him a chance to move up.

The worst part of this post is that I don't think you disagree with what I'm saying I just don't think you are responding to the actual point.


Last edited by Ogrezilla: 05-21-2012 at 01:35 PM.
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Old
05-21-2012, 01:35 PM
  #92
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Agreed. Now let's just hope Tangradi gets a regular spot in the lineup.

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05-21-2012, 02:40 PM
  #93
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I have a really simple question no one can seem to answer:

The Pens were 17-3 when Tangradi was in the lineup from late Dec on.. 2-0 in the playoffs...

Logic has always dictated you don't change your lineup in the playoffs when you are winning, yet Tangradi didn't play in game 6... Why?

It goes agt. all common sense that you start 0-3, then go 2-0 and sit Tangradi...

But DB doesn't **** Tangradi over, right....

Please.

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05-21-2012, 02:58 PM
  #94
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Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
I have a really simple question no one can seem to answer:

The Pens were 17-3 when Tangradi was in the lineup from late Dec on.. 2-0 in the playoffs...

Logic has always dictated you don't change your lineup in the playoffs when you are winning, yet Tangradi didn't play in game 6... Why?

It goes agt. all common sense that you start 0-3, then go 2-0 and sit Tangradi...

But DB doesn't **** Tangradi over, right....

Please.
I agree, there was no reason to sit Tangradi game 6, we needed his size and we win with him in the lineup. Hope he gets a roster spot next season.

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05-21-2012, 03:04 PM
  #95
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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
This has been discussed over and over again, with the same eventual consensus that gets forgotten every few months, when it gets brought up again.

The Pens drafting isn't poor, our earliest draft yields from the Shero era ('06-'08) have simply been affected by trades (1st rounder in '07, 1st, 2nd, and 3rd rounders in '08), long-term injuries (Veilleux, Jeffrey), and college players who have longer development paths (Strait, Hanowski, etc.).

Couple that with the fact that nobody should be expecting significant returns from drafts as recent as '09, and you have a draft record that is still very much "to be determined". In fact, our tangible NHL returns are virtually no different from Detroit's over that period. And anyone who wants to compare our drafts to Washington's should also consider that while they were stockpiling early draft picks, we were busy trading early draft picks to bolster Finals and Cup rosters.
This is more rationalizing than being honest.

In strict terms of drafting players, were average at best, but probably worse unless we get 5-6 real good players from the past 2 years.

Sure Staal is great and Esposito helped get hossa. But both picks were highly questionable at the time and Esposito ended up a terrible pick. And Staal over toews AND backstrom? Staal wasn't a bad pick, per se, but he wasn't the best either. That's why I always call bs on people saying Shero goes bpa all the time. If he did, who lied to him and told him staal was better than toews and backstrom? And if he took staal over them thinking he already had 2 offensive centers and wanted a defensive one, thats drafting for need, not bpa.

Hes also shown a penchant for reaching on defenders. I like samuelsson, but he, sneep, and strait were all reaches at their draft slots. Sneep and strait in particular considering they were chosen high in their rounds. Sneep was flat out a bad pick at 32 overall.

And where's a single player who's a Shero late round gem? Hes yet to find anyone who can contribute as a pro late in drafts. No talbots, tks, vitales, Jeffrey's, etc for Shero. His only hope right now is d'agostino.

And even the way some guys flamed out almost instantly like espo, cpz, Nathan moon, and chad johnson doesn't really inspire confidence.

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05-21-2012, 03:20 PM
  #96
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So, we're supposed to believe that if Beau Bennett was Chris Kreider, and he didn't have all his injury issues and helped lead his team to an NCAA title this year, and signed with the Pens right after...that he would have gotten a better shot (more playing time) than Tangradi down the stretch and in the playoffs?

I call bulls*it.

Rangers prospects are made to feel comfortable when they arrive. Our guys are walking on eggshells just praying they don't screw up.

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05-21-2012, 03:28 PM
  #97
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you guys know that Kreider has only averaged playing 12:59 per game, right? Not exactly throwing him to the wolves and giving him top 6 minutes.

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Old
05-21-2012, 03:32 PM
  #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
I have a really simple question no one can seem to answer:

The Pens were 17-3 when Tangradi was in the lineup from late Dec on.. 2-0 in the playoffs...

Logic has always dictated you don't change your lineup in the playoffs when you are winning, yet Tangradi didn't play in game 6... Why?

It goes agt. all common sense that you start 0-3, then go 2-0 and sit Tangradi...

But DB doesn't **** Tangradi over, right....

Please.

These are valid points. I'm not a Disco hater but he definitely has a problem (at times) letting young players get some development time in the NHL. That is, no "extended stays" most of the time unless there are injuries. That is the opposite of how some teams approach it, allowing and expecting mistakes and helping them work through it with video, etc. Talking about more skilled players like Tangradi or Despres who can correct their mistakes quickly if given a chance.

He also has a major Jones for gritty, underskilled veteran F and I believe that is 100% seeing a bit of himself in them and wanting to reward them for hard work. In short he's not able to see the roster from a totally objective viewpoint. He brings his personal "grinder biases" and that is a mistake. I think he has too narrow a view of what "Penguins hockey" should mean and it's directly related to who he was as a player.

These are flaws of young coaches IMO who have not been around the block enough times to understand the benefits of giving a less experienced but more skilled or better sized player the minutes they need to develop, in favor of guys like Adams, Park, & Co. The good news is I think he will learn and continue to improve as a coach but he won't get much leeway this year that's for damn sure. Nor should he.


Last edited by Darth Vitale: 05-21-2012 at 03:46 PM.
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Old
05-21-2012, 03:50 PM
  #99
eXile59
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Originally Posted by DoctrSteveBrule View Post
you guys know that Kreider has only averaged playing 12:59 per game, right? Not exactly throwing him to the wolves and giving him top 6 minutes.
13 minutes a game would be a wet dream for Tangradi. It wasn't unusual for him to get a shifts for 10 or 6 seconds. What are you suppose to do in 6 seconds?

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05-21-2012, 03:57 PM
  #100
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I think this is incredibly flawed, defensemen generally take a while and strait is right on time, so is despres. Despres is easily in the lineup this year, he was so solid. Strait has the potential to be an upgrade on Lovejoy (defensively at least) and yea some bad picks have been made, but I wouldn't say we are even in the bottom 10 for potential future success of picks. Also Harrington is looking really good as well

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