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Old
05-22-2012, 05:54 PM
  #151
Jag68Sid87
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If you weren't impressed by Tomas Tatar at the Worlds, then you'll never be impressed by anybody at the Worlds.

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05-22-2012, 05:54 PM
  #152
Til the End of Time
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to be successful (ie win the Cup) in the era of the salary cap, you simply have to have impact players on cheap ELC.

when the pens won the cup, both Malkin and Staal were on ELC, IIRC.

look at past cup winners, look at the teams left now. all have young players contributing more than their salary would suggest.

furthermore, while there is a hard salary cap, there is no cap on scouting. it doesnt yield immediate dividends, but thats one area teams can get an advantage. i have no idea about how much particular teams spend on their scouting department, but just from recent drafts it seems like the pens have a limited presence in europe.

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05-22-2012, 05:55 PM
  #153
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Originally Posted by Left Of The Dial View Post
Since 2000, they've drafted Kronwall, Kopecky, Hudler, Fleischmann, Filppula, Ericsson, Quincey, Jimmy Howard, Franzen, Kindl, Abdelkader, Helm, Matthias, and have a number of good prospects (HF has them ranked 15th). This with only 5 first rounders. That's a pretty solid record.

Given Detroit's success in Europe, Shero's hesitance to draft Europeans is somewhat disconcerting.
Their "success in Europe" stopped about 10 years ago when other teams started taking European scouting more seriously. Throw out anyone younger than 27 and they've only developed one American goaltender, one American grinder, one Canadian grinder, and three horrible D, only 2 of whom are from Europe.

All those guys packaged together couldn't fetch Letang as a return. Heck, you probably couldn't get Goligoski out of Dallas for Abdelkaider, Ericsson, Kindl and Helm.

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05-22-2012, 05:59 PM
  #154
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If you weren't impressed by Tomas Tatar at the Worlds, then you'll never be impressed by anybody at the Worlds.
Thought Thoreson had a good worlds. Doesn't mean I think he has an NHL future as a top-6 player.

Tatar tries hard, but he's undersized and weak. If the game keeps being called the way its being called, his ilk has no future at this level.

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05-22-2012, 06:28 PM
  #155
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Originally Posted by billybudd View Post
Their "success in Europe" stopped about 10 years ago when other teams started taking European scouting more seriously. Throw out anyone younger than 27 and they've only developed one American goaltender, one American grinder, one Canadian grinder, and three horrible D, only 2 of whom are from Europe.

All those guys packaged together couldn't fetch Letang as a return. Heck, you probably couldn't get Goligoski out of Dallas for Abdelkaider, Ericsson, Kindl and Helm.
not to mention the whole Quincey situation - promising 4th rounder eventually placed on waivers and reacquired last TDL for a 1st rounder.

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05-22-2012, 06:41 PM
  #156
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Originally Posted by billybudd View Post
Thought Thoreson had a good worlds. Doesn't mean I think he has an NHL future as a top-6 player.

Tatar tries hard, but he's undersized and weak. If the game keeps being called the way its being called, his ilk has no future at this level.
I take any international performances with a grain of salt. It's nice that Malkin did well and we know he's legit given his track record. Some of these other guys may just be a product of the larger ice surface and some weaker competition since all the top players don't even play in these tournaments.

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05-22-2012, 08:30 PM
  #157
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Originally Posted by Jag68Sid87 View Post
If you weren't impressed by Tomas Tatar at the Worlds, then you'll never be impressed by anybody at the Worlds.
Always liked him and he had a great WJC during his draft year.

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05-22-2012, 10:01 PM
  #158
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IF Bylsma has to stay because he is some young coaching prodigy (I don't believe in developing coaches, personally, especially when said coaching prodigy doesn't believe in developing PLAYERS), at the very least get him some new blood behind the bench as assistants to get in his ear and provide a few DIFFERENT ideas. Assuming Bylsma can't find those himself. Marc Crawford and Jacques Martin couldn't be more different in terms of coaching philosophy, yet were a great tandem in Colorado. There's too much alike behind our bench. We need some fresh thinking.

And part of that fresh thinking involves better development (and more importantly OPPORTUNITIES) for our younger talent.

The way we treat the youth in this system, you would think we were completely bereft with talent. That's far from true, imo.
what exactly are you looking for, what is wrong with the way blysma coaches, he took a team with no scoring, to 7 games against tampa last year, literally no scoring. He also coaches exciting hockey relative to a lot of coaches in this league. Our young players have plenty of oppourunity, aside from Tangradi and Jeffery(who was hurt and useless) most of the season we don't have much else up front. What exactly would you recommend him do, we don't have much in the way on winger talent lying around. Kuhn has potential but outside of that we don't have much lying around. We have a lot of prospective defencemen which is useful because they make good trading options

I still fail to see what you want though. Blysma is a great coach and It would be beyond insane to get rid of him

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05-22-2012, 10:28 PM
  #159
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Originally Posted by Coramoor View Post
what exactly are you looking for, what is wrong with the way blysma coaches, he took a team with no scoring, to 7 games against tampa last year, literally no scoring. He also coaches exciting hockey relative to a lot of coaches in this league. Our young players have plenty of oppourunity, aside from Tangradi and Jeffery(who was hurt and useless) most of the season we don't have much else up front. What exactly would you recommend him do, we don't have much in the way on winger talent lying around. Kuhn has potential but outside of that we don't have much lying around. We have a lot of prospective defencemen which is useful because they make good trading options

I still fail to see what you want though. Blysma is a great coach and It would be beyond insane to get rid of him
To bad that doesn't win games in the playoffs which is kind of important. Hopefully he is a smart enough coach to see that.

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05-22-2012, 11:00 PM
  #160
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Originally Posted by Coramoor View Post
what exactly are you looking for, what is wrong with the way blysma coaches, he took a team with no scoring, to 7 games against tampa last year, literally no scoring. He also coaches exciting hockey relative to a lot of coaches in this league. Our young players have plenty of oppourunity, aside from Tangradi and Jeffery(who was hurt and useless) most of the season we don't have much else up front. What exactly would you recommend him do, we don't have much in the way on winger talent lying around. Kuhn has potential but outside of that we don't have much lying around. We have a lot of prospective defencemen which is useful because they make good trading options

I still fail to see what you want though. Blysma is a great coach and It would be beyond insane to get rid of him
DB is a great regular season coach and a terrible PO coach.

Which is more important?

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05-22-2012, 11:18 PM
  #161
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DB is a great regular season coach and a terrible PO coach.

Which is more important?
2 stanley cup finals, a cup win and 7 games against a high powered offensive without malkin and crosby, this year is a wash cause fleury was beyond terrible

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05-22-2012, 11:35 PM
  #162
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2 stanley cup finals, a cup win and 7 games against a high powered offensive without malkin and crosby, this year is a wash cause fleury was beyond terrible
lol, is this a serious post???

MT coached the first SCF appearance not DB
DB was gifted an amazing team in 09
Pens went up 3-1 on TB, Boucher made some changes, DB didn't change ****, TB wins in 7
The Defense lost the Philly series, not MAF. Blaming MAF for the entire series is just ignorant. Not to mention changing his line up in game 6 after winning two games in a row.

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05-22-2012, 11:45 PM
  #163
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Originally Posted by billybudd View Post
Their "success in Europe" stopped about 10 years ago when other teams started taking European scouting more seriously. Throw out anyone younger than 27 and they've only developed one American goaltender, one American grinder, one Canadian grinder, and three horrible D, only 2 of whom are from Europe.

All those guys packaged together couldn't fetch Letang as a return. Heck, you probably couldn't get Goligoski out of Dallas for Abdelkaider, Ericsson, Kindl and Helm.
This.....

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05-22-2012, 11:49 PM
  #164
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Like I said Left of Dial. In the last 10 years Detroit has done basically nothing as far as developing top talent. They did have a good 2002 and a good 2000 draft though, which is basically ancient history as far as evaluating the current drafting success of a team.

You really have to look back in that 5-10 year range to evaluate recent drafting success, and from 2003-2008 Detroit was pretty awful. It will be interesting to see if any of the recent picks can make an impact and reverse that downward-off-a-cliff trend.

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05-23-2012, 12:04 AM
  #165
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Yeah Detroit aren't the geniuses they're made out to be and they have a blind eye as well (if you exclude goalies their last drafted North American impact player was Darren McCarty - 20 years ago) but their draft record is always skewed because they often leave prospects in the minors for what feels like an eternity. Then they call them up when they're in their mid-20s almost and BAM! instant NHL player. Jimmy Howard is a great example of that. The Red Wings simply have no need to rush anyone into the lineup and trust their developmental system.

I guess Shero is trying to copy that to some extent. More than ONE European scout would be pretty cool though, Ray...

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05-23-2012, 06:30 AM
  #166
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Yeah Detroit aren't the geniuses they're made out to be and they have a blind eye as well (if you exclude goalies their last drafted North American impact player was Darren McCarty - 20 years ago) but their draft record is always skewed because they often leave prospects in the minors for what feels like an eternity. Then they call them up when they're in their mid-20s almost and BAM! instant NHL player. Jimmy Howard is a great example of that. The Red Wings simply have no need to rush anyone into the lineup and trust their developmental system.

I guess Shero is trying to copy that to some extent. More than ONE European scout would be pretty cool though, Ray...
Burgs;

I have been trying to get Shero to give you one of the European scouts jobs.

Although seriously, I do believe that the Penguins need to have better presence in Europe. Every team has its own blind eyes. As teams are successful, people are poached from those teams. the replacements are not always as gifted as the people they replaced or lack the experience initially and thusly need to have successes and unfortunately failures.

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05-23-2012, 07:07 AM
  #167
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This is why I dont like to point to Detroit as the model... because they arent and people get fixated on pointing to their recent drafting as if to distinguish the whole notion of strong european scouting.

Till the end of time put it perfectly, to win you need impact talent on entry level contracts. To get that it means actually drafting players with upsides higher than bottom 6 players. It's hard to find that upside outside of the 1st round but it tends to subside in the european players moreso due to teams not knowing much about them, or being scared off by the potential for that player fleeing to europe. Meaning you can essentially get more value going after the euros plain and simple. I fail to see the point in basically wasting draft picks on guys who are future 4th liners when you can take a shot at possibly getting one of those guys that exceed their entry level contract. If they fail then big deal, you can find the replacement for that 4th liner via waivers or dirt cheap at free agency. Guys like Aaran Asham, Mike Rupp, Craig Adams, Richard Park. They're all a dime-a-dozen. It's stupid to waste draft picks on guys with the upside of them when their replacements can be had so easily.

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05-23-2012, 08:49 AM
  #168
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This is why I dont like to point to Detroit as the model... because they arent and people get fixated on pointing to their recent drafting as if to distinguish the whole notion of strong european scouting.

Till the end of time put it perfectly, to win you need impact talent on entry level contracts. To get that it means actually drafting players with upsides higher than bottom 6 players. It's hard to find that upside outside of the 1st round but it tends to subside in the european players moreso due to teams not knowing much about them, or being scared off by the potential for that player fleeing to europe. Meaning you can essentially get more value going after the euros plain and simple. I fail to see the point in basically wasting draft picks on guys who are future 4th liners when you can take a shot at possibly getting one of those guys that exceed their entry level contract. If they fail then big deal, you can find the replacement for that 4th liner via waivers or dirt cheap at free agency. Guys like Aaran Asham, Mike Rupp, Craig Adams, Richard Park. They're all a dime-a-dozen. It's stupid to waste draft picks on guys with the upside of them when their replacements can be had so easily.
I think that is old logic. It's not like back in the day where seriously good Europeans were slipping under the radar. If a European is good, most of the Euro scouts are going to know it, and most, if not all, teams employ European scouts these days.

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05-23-2012, 09:10 AM
  #169
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I think that is old logic. It's not like back in the day where seriously good Europeans were slipping under the radar. If a European is good, most of the Euro scouts are going to know it, and most, if not all, teams employ European scouts these days.
They still don't employ European scouts in the numbers that they do North American scouts so its still a numbers game. It's a lot easier for a good player there to slip through the cracks than here. Also, that didnt dispute the second part of my point that even with a known talented commodity there teams are afraid to risk picking them due to issues of that player regarding him coming to North America. That also pushes more talented players further back in the rounds.

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05-23-2012, 09:40 AM
  #170
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They still don't employ European scouts in the numbers that they do North American scouts so its still a numbers game. It's a lot easier for a good player there to slip through the cracks than here. Also, that didnt dispute the second part of my point that even with a known talented commodity there teams are afraid to risk picking them due to issues of that player regarding him coming to North America. That also pushes more talented players further back in the rounds.
They don't employ as many scouts because there's not as many players with pro potential to watch.

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05-23-2012, 09:43 AM
  #171
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They don't employ as many scouts because there's not as many players with pro potential to watch.
I don't know if I buy that completely. I definitely think more than one scout is necessary to cover Sweden, Finland, Slovakia, Czech Republic, Russia, Switzerland, etc.

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05-23-2012, 10:04 AM
  #172
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I don't know if I buy that completely. I definitely think more than one scout is necessary to cover Sweden, Finland, Slovakia, Czech Republic, Russia, Switzerland, etc.
I forget who posted the figure before (I want to say IHWR), but I believe the Pens have 2 or 3 European scouts, as do most teams.

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05-23-2012, 10:13 AM
  #173
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I forget who posted the figure before (I want to say IHWR), but I believe the Pens have 2 or 3 European scouts, as do most teams.
I didn't see that so my mistake if that's the case. I thought we only had 1 for some reason.

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05-23-2012, 10:18 AM
  #174
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I didn't see that so my mistake if that's the case. I thought we only had 1 for some reason.
It wasn't in this thread, but it's gone over pretty much every year when people start beating the ground about how the Pens don't scout Europe enough, but they actually have as many scouts as most teams.

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05-23-2012, 10:31 AM
  #175
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lol, is this a serious post???

MT coached the first SCF appearance not DB
DB was gifted an amazing team in 09
Pens went up 3-1 on TB, Boucher made some changes, DB didn't change ****, TB wins in 7
The Defense lost the Philly series, not MAF. Blaming MAF for the entire series is just ignorant. Not to mention changing his line up in game 6 after winning two games in a row.
you're right about MT, misplaced my years

I would argue that in the TB series there really wasn't much he could change. He was getting the most he could out of the team without Jordan Staal and James Neal last year wasn't the James Neal of this year.

The defense was part of the problem however if MAF was MAF from the reg season, we win that series pretty easily. MAF was however beyond terrible giving up at least 2 beyond easy goals in every loss but the final one. He started getting it together in game 5 but that was too late.

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