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Old
05-23-2012, 12:48 PM
  #176
#66
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Originally Posted by Solushun View Post
Burgs;

I have been trying to get Shero to give you one of the European scouts jobs.

Although seriously, I do believe that the Penguins need to have better presence in Europe. Every team has its own blind eyes. As teams are successful, people are poached from those teams. the replacements are not always as gifted as the people they replaced or lack the experience initially and thusly need to have successes and unfortunately failures.
Having that Euro scout isn't even needed anymore. Even though Burgs and our ol buddy Kaiser would work out well.

What alot of team are doing now is video scouting. Sure you might now get the entire ice but you can stop, rewind and slow down what players are doing. Plus games can be pre edited so that a team can watch a full days worth of... lets say OEL shifts... easily the best defenseman from that draft.

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05-24-2012, 11:26 PM
  #177
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You know the difference between the 3rd line & the 4th line right? It's about 12 minutes of ice time. Pretty big difference.
12 minutes? In what League is that the case? That's the difference between the fourth line and a top 6 player, not the third and fourth lines. A fourth line player on the Pens generally gets 8-10 minutes of ice time (Tangradi averaged 8:56 over the regular season). 12 more minutes would be 20-22 minutes of ice time - which would have put him in the same range as Malkin (21:01), Staal (20:03), Neal (19:08) and Crosby (18:28). Third liners Kennedy (14:22) and Cooke (15:40) had only around 5-7 more minutes per game than Tangradi. Which, incidentally, is about the same difference as they had to the top 6.

So, no, it isn't a "pretty big difference" at all.

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05-24-2012, 11:27 PM
  #178
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Originally Posted by Burgs View Post
I couldn't disagree more. I think Patrick and his scouting team (the people who were reportedly "jumping for joy" after we got Beech, Sivek and Lupaschuk for Jagr) did a piss-poor job for a long time (about mid 90s to early 2000s), being the anti-Detroit with their uncanny ability to fail with European picks and often taking size over skill with their North Americans. Before Orpik and Army we had 1st round busts for seven consecutive years (Bergqvist, Wells, Morozov, Hillier, Döme, Kraft, Koltsov) with an average draft position of 22. We also missed with every single 2nd rounder between 1990 and 2003, thirteen in total (12 if you discount Park who became a regular much later). This destroyed our prospect depth for a long time. And when we needed cheap young talent to step in, there simply was none ready. The better drafts during the 2000s came too late to change that.

Patrick IMO was a far superior trader than drafter and prospect developer. When he had the resources he was very good at acquiring pro players. And even later he managed to get something out of some busts via trades (Skrbek for Boughner, Wells for Barnes and Woolley come to mind) or found some worthwhile waiver guys. But eventually the Pens were so broke that he couldn't take on any notable salaries so he effectively sold for nothing. Why he didn't insist on draft picks in return we'll never know (I suspect there was more cash involved than what became public, thus lowering the pure "hockey return").
Fair enough points. In general, it just seems like Craig Patrick never knew how to rebuild - only how to build a contender when given a large budget. When I complained about his trades, I was thinking more about his acquisitions of prospects, but now that I think about it a bit more, I realize that would have fallen under the amateur scouting as well. I'm not sure what changed in the early 2000's, since his drafting in that time started picking up NHL-quality prospects, but, yeah, the late 90's were awful. Was there a change in scouting staff around that time?

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05-25-2012, 02:06 AM
  #179
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Originally Posted by Ragamuffin Gunner View Post
lol, is this a serious post???

MT coached the first SCF appearance not DB
DB was gifted an amazing team in 09
Pens went up 3-1 on TB, Boucher made some changes, DB didn't change ****, TB wins in 7
The Defense lost the Philly series, not MAF. Blaming MAF for the entire series is just ignorant. Not to mention changing his line up in game 6 after winning two games in a row.
A team that was in 12th place when he took over. ok.

...and if you think that Eric Tangradi getting pulled from the line up is the reason we lost that series then well......I just don't know what to say anymore.

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05-25-2012, 03:30 AM
  #180
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Originally Posted by froods View Post
A team that was in 12th place when he took over. ok.

...and if you think that Eric Tangradi getting pulled from the line up is the reason we lost that series then well......I just don't know what to say anymore.
The Pens were a great team that was rebelling against a coach. This isn't a movie where a new where Emilio Estevez signes on to coach a rag-tag bunch or kids to win the big game.

Pulling ET for a center made DB go from playing 3 lines (thus having one of the big 3 on the ice the eintire game ****ing up the Flyers' match-ups) to playing 4 lines (giving the Flyers a chance to sneak their 3rd d pair out there and not get caught against Sid or Geno). So yes, I think benching ST and dressing 5 centers was a big reason they lost game 6.

That's not even taking into account how DB's misuse of ET during the season led to the situation where he wasn't much of a help in the POs. playing 4 min a game on the 4th line did only hurt ET's growth, which sucks because the Pens could have used a big body with some offensive skill. Instead we had guys like Park and Adams dressing over ET because of DB's hard-on for vets.

Hell, had he dressed Des instead of Lovejoy in game 3 the Pens might have won that game. But, of course, the guy with the experience gets the call over the rookie with huge potential.

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05-25-2012, 05:26 AM
  #181
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Originally Posted by Ragamuffin Gunner View Post
lol, is this a serious post???

MT coached the first SCF appearance not DB
DB was gifted an amazing team in 09
Pens went up 3-1 on TB, Boucher made some changes, DB didn't change ****, TB wins in 7
The Defense lost the Philly series, not MAF. Blaming MAF for the entire series is just ignorant. Not to mention changing his line up in game 6 after winning two games in a row.
Oh, I get it now. When Bylsma wins, it's because he was given an amazing team that any coach could succeed with. If Bylsma loses, he's a terrible playoff coach who can't adjust.

And I'm sure it was the shuffling of fourth liners that cost us the Flyers series, not your beloved goaltender having the worst numbers of any goalie in a playoff series ever, and that includes the pond hockey days of the 80's.

I took a vacation from these boards after the loss. After reading this thread, I think I'm ready for another.

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05-25-2012, 05:45 AM
  #182
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Originally Posted by Malkin4Top6Wingerz View Post
Oh, I get it now. When Bylsma wins, it's because he was given an amazing team that any coach could succeed with. If Bylsma loses, he's a terrible playoff coach who can't adjust.

And I'm sure it was the shuffling of fourth liners that cost us the Flyers series, not your beloved goaltender having the worst numbers of any goalie in a playoff series ever, and that includes the pond hockey days of the 80's.

I took a vacation from these boards after the loss. After reading this thread, I think I'm ready for another.
Db's not entirely off the hook imo. Yes Fleury was shaky at best, terrible at worst, but the defense was also quite sub-par and so many things were fairly meh. This includes little things like the use of the time out or the last change.

It's not all on Db, but at best he's losing his players -- a number of whom have slipped in the game they bring ... I dunno, the team's gone stale. I hope there is a shake up. And even then, one more first round (or even a bad second round) exit, and I hope Db goes.

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05-25-2012, 09:36 AM
  #183
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Originally Posted by Ragamuffin Gunner View Post
The Pens were a great team that was rebelling against a coach. This isn't a movie where a new where Emilio Estevez signes on to coach a rag-tag bunch or kids to win the big game.

Pulling ET for a center made DB go from playing 3 lines (thus having one of the big 3 on the ice the eintire game ****ing up the Flyers' match-ups) to playing 4 lines (giving the Flyers a chance to sneak their 3rd d pair out there and not get caught against Sid or Geno). So yes, I think benching ST and dressing 5 centers was a big reason they lost game 6.

That's not even taking into account how DB's misuse of ET during the season led to the situation where he wasn't much of a help in the POs. playing 4 min a game on the 4th line did only hurt ET's growth, which sucks because the Pens could have used a big body with some offensive skill. Instead we had guys like Park and Adams dressing over ET because of DB's hard-on for vets.

Hell, had he dressed Des instead of Lovejoy in game 3 the Pens might have won that game. But, of course, the guy with the experience gets the call over the rookie with huge potential.
For the life of me, I'll never get why this is so hard for some people to comprehend. You get Sid or Geno or Staal an extra 5-6 combined shifts against a third defensive pairing, and you improve the team's chances. It shouldn't be rocket science to figure out why.

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05-25-2012, 01:35 PM
  #184
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Originally Posted by KIRK View Post
For the life of me, I'll never get why this is so hard for some people to comprehend. You get Sid or Geno or Staal an extra 5-6 combined shifts against a third defensive pairing, and you improve the team's chances. It shouldn't be rocket science to figure out why.
Oh, I love that gameplan, I just think it is a huge stretch to blame that on losing that series. I HUGE stretch.

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05-25-2012, 01:41 PM
  #185
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Originally Posted by KIRK View Post
For the life of me, I'll never get why this is so hard for some people to comprehend. You get Sid or Geno or Staal an extra 5-6 combined shifts against a third defensive pairing, and you improve the team's chances. It shouldn't be rocket science to figure out why.
Your agenda is getting in the way of facts. Bylsma stayed with 7D like he did in previous games and continued to double shift the three headed monster. Literally the ONLY difference was Vitale being in for Tangradi, and to second guess that decision is silly. Vitale has been the more effective player all year.

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05-25-2012, 02:14 PM
  #186
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Originally Posted by Freeptop View Post
12 minutes? In what League is that the case? That's the difference between the fourth line and a top 6 player, not the third and fourth lines. A fourth line player on the Pens generally gets 8-10 minutes of ice time (Tangradi averaged 8:56 over the regular season). 12 more minutes would be 20-22 minutes of ice time - which would have put him in the same range as Malkin (21:01), Staal (20:03), Neal (19:08) and Crosby (18:28). Third liners Kennedy (14:22) and Cooke (15:40) had only around 5-7 more minutes per game than Tangradi. Which, incidentally, is about the same difference as they had to the top 6.

So, no, it isn't a "pretty big difference" at all.
The difference between 9 minutes & 15 is around 10 extra shifts per game. So you are wrong but it was a nice try.

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05-25-2012, 03:18 PM
  #187
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Originally Posted by froods View Post
Oh, I love that gameplan, I just think it is a huge stretch to blame that on losing that series. I HUGE stretch.
That hardly was the ONLY reason, but it was a reason. I was a fan of the 7D approach, because it FORCED Bylsma to use Sid, Geno, and Staal properly, something he has proven utterly inept at doing in big games otherwise.

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05-25-2012, 04:50 PM
  #188
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Originally Posted by Malkin4Top6Wingerz View Post
Your agenda is getting in the way of facts. Bylsma stayed with 7D like he did in previous games and continued to double shift the three headed monster. Literally the ONLY difference was Vitale being in for Tangradi, and to second guess that decision is silly. Vitale has been the more effective player all year.
Tangradi was one of our most effective forwards in the series. It was a dumb decision to sit him. He was showing some chemistry with Sid. Drawing penalties. Causing problems for Philly D-men. And assisted on a big goal early in game 4.

We're down 0-3. It'd be nice if DB just stuck with the kid. Doubleshift Sid/Geno/Staal with him. 8-9 minutes of ES ice.

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05-25-2012, 05:33 PM
  #189
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the penguins are incredibly deep at every position pretty much therefore that's why the players we keep in the minors haven't made it here yet. Because they're realllly good, but our team is going to go with all of our REALLY GOOD veteran players. It's simple as that. Despres and morrow both look like they're going to fill out to be 1/2 dmen. We'll solidify our team forever once they crack the lineup.

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05-25-2012, 11:45 PM
  #190
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Originally Posted by KIRK View Post
That hardly was the ONLY reason, but it was a reason. I was a fan of the 7D approach, because it FORCED Bylsma to use Sid, Geno, and Staal properly, something he has proven utterly inept at doing in big games otherwise.
I guess you missed the post where I shot this myth down. In Game 6 we rolled 7 defenseman, with Crosby and Malkin playing over 26 minutes a game each, a much higher TOI than they had in the previous two games in fact.

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Tangradi was one of our most effective forwards in the series. It was a dumb decision to sit him. He was showing some chemistry with Sid. Drawing penalties. Causing problems for Philly D-men. And assisted on a big goal early in game 4.
He played TWO games and was replaced by a player who had proven more valuable in nearly all facets of the game leading up to the series. In the regular season Vitale produced better, had a far superior penalty drawn vs taken differential, and without looking it up on NHL.com I'd say he was a more consistent physical presence, particularly on the forecheck. Not to mention the things he does that Tangradi simply cannot, like kill penalties and win faceoffs.

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We're down 0-3. It'd be nice if DB just stuck with the kid. Doubleshift Sid/Geno/Staal with him. 8-9 minutes of ES ice.
Should Bylsma have stuck with him? Perhaps. But it's such a non-factor in the grand scheme of things. Tangradi isn't the kind of player you second guess scratching in a playoff series, especially when the guy that replaced him had clearly outperformed him during the regular season. Find something else to nitpick Bylsma over.

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05-26-2012, 12:17 AM
  #191
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That is also my thinking. It is a hard point to argue because he should have left him out there. Saying it cost the Pens the series is madness. Terrible defense and bad goaltending cost us that series. I kind of understand why he felt it necessary to put Adams and Vitale, two really good defensive forwards, back in there. I don't agree with the move, but I understand it.

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05-26-2012, 12:25 AM
  #192
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Tangradi was one of our most effective forwards in the series. It was a dumb decision to sit him. He was showing some chemistry with Sid. Drawing penalties. Causing problems for Philly D-men. And assisted on a big goal early in game 4.

We're down 0-3. It'd be nice if DB just stuck with the kid. Doubleshift Sid/Geno/Staal with him. 8-9 minutes of ES ice.
That is a gross overstatement. He was very good. For him, he was outstanding. To say he was one of the better forwards?? I know we expected more out of some guys, but they still were effective.

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05-26-2012, 11:22 AM
  #193
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Tangradi was one of our most effective forwards in the series. It was a dumb decision to sit him. He was showing some chemistry with Sid. Drawing penalties. Causing problems for Philly D-men. And assisted on a big goal early in game 4.

We're down 0-3. It'd be nice if DB just stuck with the kid. Doubleshift Sid/Geno/Staal with him. 8-9 minutes of ES ice.
Well, plus every time Vitale took a shift, it meant Sid or Geno or Staal didn't. After two games where there might have been 3-4 total ES shifts without one of them on the ice, it was back to the 3-4 shifts a period without one of them on the ice formula. But, some people here have their agendas, so indulge them.

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05-26-2012, 11:23 AM
  #194
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the penguins are incredibly deep at every position pretty much therefore that's why the players we keep in the minors haven't made it here yet. Because they're realllly good, but our team is going to go with all of our REALLY GOOD veteran players. It's simple as that. Despres and morrow both look like they're going to fill out to be 1/2 dmen. We'll solidify our team forever once they crack the lineup.
If all of those veteran players are that good, then why do the Pens keep getting bounced so early from the playoffs?

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05-26-2012, 11:41 AM
  #195
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Originally Posted by Malkin4Top6Wingerz View Post
He played TWO games and was replaced by a player who had proven more valuable in nearly all facets of the game leading up to the series. In the regular season Vitale produced better, had a far superior penalty drawn vs taken differential, and without looking it up on NHL.com I'd say he was a more consistent physical presence, particularly on the forecheck. Not to mention the things he does that Tangradi simply cannot, like kill penalties and win faceoffs.



Should Bylsma have stuck with him? Perhaps. But it's such a non-factor in the grand scheme of things. Tangradi isn't the kind of player you second guess scratching in a playoff series, especially when the guy that replaced him had clearly outperformed him during the regular season. Find something else to nitpick Bylsma over.
He's exactly what we needed against Philly. A big body who can punish D-men, hold onto pucks down low, and draw penalties.

DB didn't trust him enough. It's as simple as that. I can nitpick whatever I want. It's one of the many mistakes in the series.

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05-26-2012, 11:44 AM
  #196
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That is a gross overstatement. He was very good. For him, he was outstanding. To say he was one of the better forwards?? I know we expected more out of some guys, but they still were effective.
It's not an overstatement at all. His size and fresh legs gave us solid minutes with which we built on. That's being effective in your role.

Again, it's just one issue I have in the series. But people who underrate the impact a 4th liner can have only need look at the Devils playoff run.

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05-26-2012, 11:45 AM
  #197
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He's exactly what we needed against Philly. A big body who can punish D-men, hold onto pucks down low, and draw penalties.

DB didn't trust him enough. It's as simple as that. I can nitpick whatever I want. It's one of the many mistakes in the series.
Perhaps you'd be better off if you stopped having an agenda focused on seeing the Pens win cups and just sipped the kool-aid and waved the pom-pom's like some others around here.

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05-26-2012, 11:46 AM
  #198
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Well, plus every time Vitale took a shift, it meant Sid or Geno or Staal didn't. After two games where there might have been 3-4 total ES shifts without one of them on the ice, it was back to the 3-4 shifts a period without one of them on the ice formula. But, some people here have their agendas, so indulge them.
that would be a better argument if Sid and Geno didn't each play 6 more minutes in game 6 than in game 4 or 5.

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05-26-2012, 11:48 AM
  #199
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that would be a better argument if Sid and Geno didn't each play 6 more minutes in game 6 than he did in game 5.
Ah, no. Maybe this is where we differ. You look at it and say 'well, how many minutes did they play'. I look at it and ask was Sid, Geno, or Staal on the ice every time there was an ES shift, because those few extra shifts against third defensive pairings and those few extra shifts where Lavs couldn't dictate matchups made all the difference in games four and five. No biggie, we disagree, and the Pens being out is my only validation of the argument (just like me deal Martin and get two good wingers each for Sid and Geno argument).

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05-26-2012, 11:52 AM
  #200
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Ah, no. Maybe this is where we differ. You look at it and say 'well, how many minutes did they play'. I look at it and ask was Sid, Geno, or Staal on the ice every time there was an ES shift, because those few extra shifts against third defensive pairings and those few extra shifts where Lavs couldn't dictate matchups made all the difference in games four and five. No biggie, we disagree, and the Pens being out is my only validation of the argument (just like me deal Martin and get two good wingers each for Sid and Geno argument).
So are you saying they played on the same line more often at ES in game 6 than in game 5? Because there's simply no way we had one of them on the ice less often unless they were on the ice together. It isn't an opinion. They played more in game 6 than in game 5. Sid played an extra minute and a half at even strength. Malkin played an extra 3 minutes ES. For good measure, Staal played an extra 3 at ES too. Unless they were playing together they were on the ice more. It's as simple as that.

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