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Since picking Jordan Staal 2nd overall in 2006...

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Old
05-26-2012, 10:57 AM
  #201
KIRK
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Originally Posted by Ogrezilla View Post
So are you saying they played on the same line more often at ES in game 6 than in game 5? Because there's simply no way we had one of them on the ice less often unless they were on the ice together. It isn't an opinion. They played more in game 6 than in game 5.
Actually, there were more shifts in game six where Sid or Geno or Staal wasn't on the ice at ES than games four and five combined because you had Vitale out there to center a line.

Really, what happened is that you saw more Sid and Staal or Sid and Geno shifts in game 6, so Vitale would be 'third line center' in those scenarios. Me, I argue that in Philly, every time it was Vitale at center, that allowed the Flyers to come out with their third pairing (or their top line). It made matching up against the Pens a lot easier.

It's easy to look at those extra five or six shifts and say 'no biggie'. Maybe you're right. BUT, making the matchups easier and detracting from how the strength down the middle approach dictated shift after shift in games four and five didn't make the Pens task any easier.

Yet another example, IMO, of a coach who doesn't put his players and team in the best possible position to succeed . . . add all the small examples up, and you've got a record of playoff futility the last three years. But, maybe this is the off-season Bylsma 'learns'.

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05-26-2012, 11:02 AM
  #202
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Originally Posted by KIRK View Post
Actually, there were more shifts in game six where Sid or Geno or Staal wasn't on the ice at ES than games four and five combined because you had Vitale out there to center a line.

Really, what happened is that you saw more Sid and Staal or Sid and Geno shifts in game 6, so Vitale would be 'third line center' in those scenarios. Me, I argue that in Philly, every time it was Vitale at center, that allowed the Flyers to come out with their third pairing (or their top line). It made matching up against the Pens a lot easier.

It's easy to look at those extra five or six shifts and say 'no biggie'. Maybe you're right. BUT, making the matchups easier and detracting from how the strength down the middle approach dictated shift after shift in games four and five didn't make the Pens task any easier.

Yet another example, IMO, of a coach who doesn't put his players and team in the best possible position to succeed . . . add all the small examples up, and you've got a record of playoff futility the last three years. But, maybe this is the off-season Bylsma 'learns'.
that was my question. Ok. That's the only way what you are saying is possible. Vitale, btw, played 4 minutes ES. Adams played 1 minute ES. In game 5, Adams played 9. I have a hard time believing that is a difference of more than 2 or maybe 3 shifts without Sid, Geno or Staal on the ice. I don't know where to actually see who is on the ice when. I don't even come close to believing that was the difference in a 3-2 win and a 5-1 loss but whatever.

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Old
05-26-2012, 11:10 AM
  #203
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Originally Posted by Ogrezilla View Post
that was my question. Ok. That's the only way what you are saying is possible. Vitale, btw, played 4 minutes ES. Adams played 1 minute ES. In game 5, Adams played 9. I have a hard time believing that is a difference of more than 2 or maybe 3 shifts without Sid, Geno or Staal on the ice. I don't know where to actually see who is on the ice when. I don't even come close to believing that was the difference in a 3-2 win and a 5-1 loss but whatever.
4 minutes = 6 shifts (assuming a 40 second average). There weren't 6 shifts in games four and five combined (I remember two in one of the games and forget if there were any at all in the other). In games four and five, yeah, guys like Adams played, but they'd play every shift with Sid or Geno or Staal as center. Again, it's about dictating matchups and tilting the ice by using your strength down the middle to prevent Lavs from getting the matchups he wants.

Was it THE difference? No. I don't think I've argued otherwise. Like a lot of the complaints about Bylsma, it's just another of the little things (bench management) that, when you add it all up, have played a significant role in three years of playoff futility. But, he's a good young coach, he gets the most out of this team during the regular season when stars are injured, and he'll learn . . . as I keep saying, all I can do is hope for just that, because eating crow beats wasting another year of Sid and Geno.

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05-26-2012, 11:15 AM
  #204
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Originally Posted by KIRK View Post
4 minutes = 6 shifts (assuming a 40 second average). There weren't 6 shifts in games four and five combined (I remember two in one of the games and forget if there were any at all in the other). In games four and five, yeah, guys like Adams played, but they'd play every shift with Sid or Geno or Staal as center. Again, it's about dictating matchups and tilting the ice by using your strength down the middle to prevent Lavs from getting the matchups he wants.

Was it THE difference? No. I don't think I've argued otherwise. Like a lot of the complaints about Bylsma, it's just another of the little things (bench management) that, when you add it all up, have played a significant role in three years of playoff futility. But, he's a good young coach, he gets the most out of this team during the regular season when stars are injured, and he'll learn . . . as I keep saying, all I can do is hope for just that, because eating crow beats wasting another year of Sid and Geno.
Alright so a few shifts. The problem seems to be that they were being played together then, not Vitale. Because I don't think playing more than 27 minutes is something we should expect.

And if you want to know why your posts annoy people its this line. it sounds so freaking smug its ridiculous.

edit: so how about that penguins drafting since 2006? interesting topic for discussion I bet


Last edited by Ogrezilla: 05-26-2012 at 11:22 AM.
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Old
05-26-2012, 12:46 PM
  #205
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The difference between 9 minutes & 15 is around 10 extra shifts per game. So you are wrong but it was a nice try.
My original point was that it wasn't exactly unprecedented to take a top 6 caliber player and start them on a lower line and make them earn their way up. I was told that the difference between the third line and the fourth line was 10-12 minutes of ice time. I pointed out that was patently false, and that the difference from moving up from the fourth line to the third line is the same as moving from the third line to the top 6. That is the difference I was referring to as not being a very big difference at all - it's a five minute difference from the fourth to the third line, and a five minute difference from the third to the top 6. So, like I said, not a big difference at all.

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05-26-2012, 12:47 PM
  #206
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Originally Posted by Ragamuffin Gunner View Post
That's not even taking into account how DB's misuse of ET during the season led to the situation where he wasn't much of a help in the POs. playing 4 min a game on the 4th line did only hurt ET's growth, which sucks because the Pens could have used a big body with some offensive skill. Instead we had guys like Park and Adams dressing over ET because of DB's hard-on for vets.
I don't actually disagree with the most of your premise here, but where did this idea come about that Tangradi only played 4 minutes a game? That's not backed by the facts at all. His lowest ice time all season was 4:50 minutes, but that was only one game. He averaged almost 9 minutes per game. He topped out at 14:22, though that was in December.

He did get the least amount of ice time among forwards, so it's still fair to criticize how little ice time he got, but saying he only got 4 minutes of ice time is hyperbole that undermines your argument when it is so easily disproven.

Don't get me wrong - I think he does deserve a chance, and I was baffled at his removal from the lineup for game 6, but to say he'd be proving so much more if only he got more ice time simply isn't supported by any evidence whatsoever.

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Old
05-26-2012, 03:41 PM
  #207
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Originally Posted by Ogrezilla View Post
that was my question. Ok. That's the only way what you are saying is possible. Vitale, btw, played 4 minutes ES. Adams played 1 minute ES. In game 5, Adams played 9. I have a hard time believing that is a difference of more than 2 or maybe 3 shifts without Sid, Geno or Staal on the ice.
As you pointed out, Vitale and Adams had 5 minutes of even strength ice time combined, and those were the only two fourth liners we dressed since we went with 7D. Crosby, Malkin, and Staal each played a ridiculous amount at even strength. But according to KIRK, they STILL weren't out there enough, and damnit if it wasn't all Joe Vitale's fault. Or, I'm sorry, the real issue was that there were too many instances where not one of Crosby, Malkin, and Staal were out on the ice. Or so says KIRK.

Quote:
I don't know where to actually see who is on the ice when.
Fortunately for us, and unfortunately for KIRK, I do. Shift sheets according to timeonice. You can drag the results of each player to wherever you'd like, making it very simple to see when a group of players were or weren't out on the ice.

Game 4


Game 5

Game 6

You can see in Game 4 there are several instances where none of the three headed monster are out on the ice at ES, and not just when the game got out of hand either. In Game 5 this changes, with only a few shifts being taken without one of Staal, Malkin, or Crosby out on the ice. Game 6? Starts out very similarly to the way Bylsma used his team in Game 4, but once the Flyers jump out to a 3-0 lead the fourth line gets glued to the bench.

In any event, complaining that there were instances where the big three were all on the bench is ridiculous when everybody is always riding the coach to get them out on the ice together more. I'm almost positive KIRK has complained about that too, in fact - especially Sid and Geno not being out there together enough. Common sense dictates that you can't stack your lines and always have your best players out on the ice.

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05-28-2012, 02:37 PM
  #208
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For all the handwringing, the Pens have moved out of the bottom third of the HF organizational rankings, from where they were the last rankings at 21 ( http://www.hockeysfuture.com/team-ra...s-2011-2012/4/ ):

http://www.hockeysfuture.com/article...ing-2012-21-30

How far up they have moved we will see when further rankings come out, but our friends from the stinky part of the state are resting now near the bottom of the rankings, along with NJ.

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05-28-2012, 02:50 PM
  #209
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It takes a long time for a player to reach a level to where they can succeed in the NHL on a regular basis. And for most, they never reach that level. It's anything but an exact science, but it seems to me like some teams draft and develop talent better than other teams. And they do it year after year after year.

Now for the part where I criticize the Penguins, well, kind of. The Penguins are very average at drafting, and looking past the 1st 2 rounds one could say they are poor at it. My opinion is just: average. The alarming thing about the Pens are how many great wingers they have overlooked over the years. I thought that when they finally got Malkin over from Russia they would begin stock piling young wingers in an effort to find a couple of big time snipers at entry level deals. But looking at the players they chose over those wingers, it almost looks like they were avoiding the winger position! Which is comical.

Having said that, they picked a really good one last season, and they do have Staal to deal for another winger. I think the best deal they could make would be with Toronto.

Penguins get:
Kulmenin, Schenn, and Holzer.

Maple Leafs get:
Staal, 5th rounder, and Lovejoy.

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05-28-2012, 03:07 PM
  #210
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Originally Posted by Play4Miracles View Post
Now for the part where I criticize the Penguins, well, kind of. The Penguins are very average at drafting, and looking past the 1st 2 rounds one could say they are poor at it. My opinion is just: average. The alarming thing about the Pens are how many great wingers they have overlooked over the years. I thought that when they finally got Malkin over from Russia they would begin stock piling young wingers in an effort to find a couple of big time snipers at entry level deals. But looking at the players they chose over those wingers, it almost looks like they were avoiding the winger position! Which is comical.
You don't draft based on need, you draft based on who you feel is BPA. Our surplus of defense is what enabled us to deal for a big time sniper on the wing.

Quote:
Penguins get:
Kulmenin, Schenn, and Holzer.

Maple Leafs get:
Staal, 5th rounder, and Lovejoy.
You presumably want to improve our offense, and your first step is to trade a guy who scored on pace for 35 goals last year for a guy who scored 7 goals, plus a defensive defenseman?

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05-28-2012, 03:21 PM
  #211
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Originally Posted by Play4Miracles View Post
It takes a long time for a player to reach a level to where they can succeed in the NHL on a regular basis. And for most, they never reach that level. It's anything but an exact science, but it seems to me like some teams draft and develop talent better than other teams. And they do it year after year after year.

Now for the part where I criticize the Penguins, well, kind of. The Penguins are very average at drafting, and looking past the 1st 2 rounds one could say they are poor at it. My opinion is just: average. The alarming thing about the Pens are how many great wingers they have overlooked over the years. I thought that when they finally got Malkin over from Russia they would begin stock piling young wingers in an effort to find a couple of big time snipers at entry level deals. But looking at the players they chose over those wingers, it almost looks like they were avoiding the winger position! Which is comical.

Having said that, they picked a really good one last season, and they do have Staal to deal for another winger. I think the best deal they could make would be with Toronto.

Penguins get:
Kulmenin, Schenn, and Holzer.

Maple Leafs get:
Staal, 5th rounder, and Lovejoy.
Shero has turned Whitney and GoGo into Kunitz, Tangradi, Neal and Nisky.

I wish they had more than BB at fwd, but if you gave me a wish to have a stockpile of good fwd or blueline prospects, I'm taking blueliners all day.

I feel a talented blueliner will be sitting there for Shero to pick this year, and I hope he takes him.

And Kumy is a big risk, Schenn is a train wreck.

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05-28-2012, 10:36 PM
  #212
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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
You don't draft based on need, you draft based on who you feel is BPA. Our surplus of defense is what enabled us to deal for a big time sniper on the wing.



You presumably want to improve our offense, and your first step is to trade a guy who scored on pace for 35 goals last year for a guy who scored 7 goals, plus a defensive defenseman?
Shero will make a good deal, but I suspect many Pens fans like yourself will blow it out of proportion. If Staal is a 30 goal scorer than so is Kulemin. Schenn is actually good,and going to be really good. Lovejoy, now there is a train wreck. Holzer is NHL ready and much more promising. It works well with the Pens cap, Malkin and Kulmenin are from the same town, so if that works out you got 2 lines of:

Kunitz-Crosby-Neal
Kulmenin-Malkin-?????


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Old
05-29-2012, 02:04 AM
  #213
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Schenn isn't actually good. He's actually not good, like at all. Being a part of the hype machine in Toronto has massively inflated his value. Kulemin is a nice piece though despite his poor year, but there ain't no way in hell I'm trading Staal for him.

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05-29-2012, 02:29 AM
  #214
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Originally Posted by Malkin4Top6Wingerz View Post
Schenn isn't actually good. He's actually not good, like at all. Being a part of the hype machine in Toronto has massively inflated his value. Kulemin is a nice piece though despite his poor year, but there ain't no way in hell I'm trading Staal for him.
Schenn had a terrible year. I think he will be very good... in time.
Problem with Schenn is that he has been given too big a contract to be worth the risk.

With Toronto, we'd have to be talking Kulemin plus 1st and then likely some more.

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05-29-2012, 06:57 AM
  #215
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Holzer is NHL ready and much more promising.
Seems like Holzer is thrown into every Leafs proposal these days. I don't see why Penguins would have any interest in him. While he may be a solid prospect, I don't see where he would fit in the organisation. There's simply no room for him anywhere and I doubt he's that much better than Strait and Bortuzzo that he would immediately jump ahead of them in the depth charts. Then there's Despres, Morrow and Harrington developing at a great pace too. A guy like Holzer should hold zero value for the Penguins in a Staal deal - or pretty much in any other deal too. That's not to say he's worthless but simply, for the Penguins he doesn't really provide anything at all.

And Kulemin and Schenn for Staal is just poor value. Really poor value.

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Old
05-29-2012, 07:58 AM
  #216
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For all the handwringing, the Pens have moved out of the bottom third of the HF organizational rankings, from where they were the last rankings at 21 ( http://www.hockeysfuture.com/team-ra...s-2011-2012/4/ ):

http://www.hockeysfuture.com/article...ing-2012-21-30

How far up they have moved we will see when further rankings come out, but our friends from the stinky part of the state are resting now near the bottom of the rankings, along with NJ.
Cant imagine this being very accurate though when I see Washington ranked 27 with Orlov, Kuznetsov, Galiev, Holtby, Eakin all included. Theres not many other teams that have 5 better prospects in their organization.

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05-29-2012, 08:18 AM
  #217
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Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
Shero has turned Whitney and GoGo into Kunitz, Tangradi, Neal and Nisky.

I wish they had more than BB at fwd, but if you gave me a wish to have a stockpile of good fwd or blueline prospects, I'm taking blueliners all day.

I feel a talented blueliner will be sitting there for Shero to pick this year, and I hope he takes him.

And Kumy is a big risk, Schenn is a train wreck.
Exactly. People want to crush him for those first few drafts, but he actually turned Esposito and the other first rounder into the pieces we needed to get a cup when you think about. Without the Dupuis trade (), we never get to the finals and have the experience to win the next year. You have to factor those things plus the stuff Jiggy is talking about.

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05-29-2012, 08:33 AM
  #218
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Originally Posted by Jaded-Fan View Post
For all the handwringing, the Pens have moved out of the bottom third of the HF organizational rankings, from where they were the last rankings at 21 ( http://www.hockeysfuture.com/team-ra...s-2011-2012/4/ ):

http://www.hockeysfuture.com/article...ing-2012-21-30

How far up they have moved we will see when further rankings come out, but our friends from the stinky part of the state are resting now near the bottom of the rankings, along with NJ.
To be fair though, New Jersey has graduated probably the most quality young players to the NHL this season and Philadelphia also infused their team with a lot of quality youngsters. The only real rookies on the Pens this season were Tangradi and Despres, who barely had more than cups of coffee.

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05-29-2012, 10:25 AM
  #219
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Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
Shero has turned Whitney and GoGo into Kunitz, Tangradi, Neal and Nisky.

I wish they had more than BB at fwd, but if you gave me a wish to have a stockpile of good fwd or blueline prospects, I'm taking blueliners all day.

I feel a talented blueliner will be sitting there for Shero to pick this year, and I hope he takes him.

And Kumy is a big risk, Schenn is a train wreck.
Turning those dmen into wingers is fine and dandy but trading for wingers on expensive deals, or who will need them like Neal, is what has necessitated so much roster turnover the past few off seasons.

Noone can deny there'd be no talk of trading Staal if Neal wasn't making 5 mil now. But weve basically got to choose one or the other. If you had an entry level guy who could've replaced kunitz or sully then we could've kept a Rupp or a talbot or maybe both. 2 players who now appeared to be fairly critical appeared to our playoff performance.

The point isn't that Shero made bad deals or managed assets badly. The point is if he drafted better early on in his tenure and focused a bit more on supplementing his teams strength, the centers, word probably have more assets to use and supplement the team with.

I mean can anyone honestly say wed be at a major loss in our prospect pool if highish picks on guys like veilleux, sneep, strait, samuelsson, etc were were used solely on wingers? I doubt it considering none of those guys are standout prospects.

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05-29-2012, 10:45 AM
  #220
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Turning those dmen into wingers is fine and dandy but trading for wingers on expensive deals, or who will need them like Neal, is what has necessitated so much roster turnover the past few off seasons.

Noone can deny there'd be no talk of trading Staal if Neal wasn't making 5 mil now. But weve basically got to choose one or the other. If you had an entry level guy who could've replaced kunitz or sully then we could've kept a Rupp or a talbot or maybe both. 2 players who now appeared to be fairly critical appeared to our playoff performance.

The point isn't that Shero made bad deals or managed assets badly. The point is if he drafted better early on in his tenure and focused a bit more on supplementing his teams strength, the centers, word probably have more assets to use and supplement the team with.

I mean can anyone honestly say wed be at a major loss in our prospect pool if highish picks on guys like veilleux, sneep, strait, samuelsson, etc were were used solely on wingers? I doubt it considering none of those guys are standout prospects.
Oh pick me, pick me! I deny.

The Staal discussion has zero to do with whether the Pens can afford his projected cost. They can. The only thing behind all this talk is speculation as to whether he is pouting over his role on the team. Yeah, he gets the same number of minutes as Crosby and malkin, and yeah for the most part his wings are as mediocre as any of theirs, but the dude needs more PP time. It is all about the PP time man. Oh and the title. First or second line center. The other Staals will laugh at him if he does not have that title before his name. The above has launched a thousand ships of threads designed to see what collection of mediocrity would entice we Pens' fans to say 'yes, Oh God yes, a thousand times yes, we will trade you one slightly used Staal for this collection of mediocrity and thank you for the privledge.'

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05-29-2012, 10:49 AM
  #221
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Originally Posted by sina220 View Post
Turning those dmen into wingers is fine and dandy but trading for wingers on expensive deals, or who will need them like Neal, is what has necessitated so much roster turnover the past few off seasons.

Noone can deny there'd be no talk of trading Staal if Neal wasn't making 5 mil now. But weve basically got to choose one or the other. If you had an entry level guy who could've replaced kunitz or sully then we could've kept a Rupp or a talbot or maybe both. 2 players who now appeared to be fairly critical appeared to our playoff performance.

The point isn't that Shero made bad deals or managed assets badly. The point is if he drafted better early on in his tenure and focused a bit more on supplementing his teams strength, the centers, word probably have more assets to use and supplement the team with.

I mean can anyone honestly say wed be at a major loss in our prospect pool if highish picks on guys like veilleux, sneep, strait, samuelsson, etc were were used solely on wingers? I doubt it considering none of those guys are standout prospects.
If I could go back, I still would not re-sign either player. Just because Talbot scored 19 goals this season with the Flyers, doesn't mean he would have scored 19 goals with the Penguins. I actually am confident in saying he would have been hard pressed to get 10. He needed a change in the worst way. He also got to play with more talented wingers than he ever could have dreamed of here. Mike Rupp had 5 points this season. 5. I know it isn't about points with him, but you can't pay a 7 minute a night, 4th liner 1.5 million with our cap structure. You just can't. By the way, Rupp never won **** with us. It is not on him at all, but it's not like we were not losing early with him.

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05-29-2012, 10:53 AM
  #222
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Originally Posted by froods View Post
If I could go back, I still would not re-sign either player. Just because Talbot scored 19 goals this season with the Flyers, doesn't mean he would have scored 19 goals with the Penguins. I actually am confident in saying he would have been hard pressed to get 10. He needed a change in the worst way. He also got to play with more talented wingers than he ever could have dreamed of here. Mike Rupp had 5 points this season. 5. I know it isn't about points with him, but you can't pay a 7 minute a night, 4th liner 1.5 million with our cap structure. You just can't. By the way, Rupp never won **** with us. It is not on him at all, but it's not like we were not losing early with him.
It was a five year $9 million deal as well. Five years. No way in hell I am giving Talbot that, and guarentee you Flyer fans will be crying to get rid of him at some point. Likely he will suddenly have a sudden 'injury' and be buried in the minors. That is just how they roll.

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05-29-2012, 01:02 PM
  #223
Sidney the Kidney
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Originally Posted by Play4Miracles View Post
Shero will make a good deal, but I suspect many Pens fans like yourself will blow it out of proportion. If Staal is a 30 goal scorer than so is Kulemin. Schenn is actually good,and going to be really good. Lovejoy, now there is a train wreck. Holzer is NHL ready and much more promising. It works well with the Pens cap, Malkin and Kulmenin are from the same town, so if that works out you got 2 lines of:

Kunitz-Crosby-Neal
Kulmenin-Malkin-?????
With regards to Staal/Kulemin and this "30 goal" thing. At least Staal has consistently shown he can score 20+ goals, and is trending upward. Kulemin scored 30 goals ONCE, and his other three seasons saw him score 15, 16, and 7 goals.

Of the two, which one has a track record that suggests he's capable of being a consistent 25 to 30 goal man, and which one has a track record that suggests scoring 30 goals was a fluke?

With regards to Schenn, how many games did you catch of the Leafs this year? He was not good. He wasn't close to good. Even on a poor Leafs defense, he was only trusted with bottom pairing minutes. He's a slow skater and his decision making is iffy. Those are two red flags for me when it comes to defensemen.

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05-29-2012, 01:08 PM
  #224
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Originally Posted by Sidney the Kidney View Post
With regards to Staal/Kulemin and this "30 goal" thing. At least Staal has consistently shown he can score 20+ goals, and is trending upward. Kulemin scored 30 goals ONCE, and his other three seasons saw him score 15, 16, and 7 goals.

Of the two, which one has a track record that suggests he's capable of being a consistent 25 to 30 goal man, and which one has a track record that suggests scoring 30 goals was a fluke?

With regards to Schenn, how many games did you catch of the Leafs this year? He was not good. He wasn't close to good. Even on a poor Leafs defense, he was only trusted with bottom pairing minutes. He's a slow skater and his decision making is iffy. Those are two red flags for me when it comes to defensemen.
It also speaks volumes as to why teams would gladly trade a top five pick for a 23 year old like Staal. Predicting the NHL careers of 17 year olds is still taking a chance even for top five picks. Staal would be one of the best case scenerios a team could hope for with a top five pick. A Crosby does not get drafted every single year.

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05-29-2012, 01:09 PM
  #225
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Originally Posted by phaneuf_fan_3 View Post
Cant imagine this being very accurate though when I see Washington ranked 27 with Orlov, Kuznetsov, Galiev, Holtby, Eakin all included. Theres not many other teams that have 5 better prospects in their organization.
Does the fact that Kuznetsov might never come over effect the rankings?

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