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Old
05-19-2012, 04:08 PM
  #26
le_sean
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TieClark View Post
32 points for McDonagh compared to Subban's 36 is pretty close in my books.
1st place team vs 15th.

If the Rangers are down a goal with a minute left, they don't even consider McDonagh. Subban is the first one off the bench for Montreal. They are also both on the ice if they are up a goal with a minute left. Because of that I think Subban has the edge.

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05-19-2012, 04:11 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by le_sean View Post
1st place team vs 15th.

If the Rangers are down a goal with a minute left, they don't even consider McDonagh. Subban is the first one off the bench for Montreal. They are also both on the ice if they are up a goal with a minute left. Because of that I think Subban has the edge.
The Rangers have Staal and Girardi... two experienced d-men

What does the Habs have ?

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05-19-2012, 04:12 PM
  #28
Kriss E
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Originally Posted by TieClark View Post
McDonagh was the best prospect in the habs system (yes better than Subban) and he was traded in order to ACQUIRE Gomez. That is by far the worst trade... the Roy situation is completely different. He demanded a trade... getting less value for him is expected (although not that low.
There is absolutely no reason to get less return, even if the keeper wants out, for a superstar. You're talking about one of the, if not the, best goalie of all time.
You don't get bad returns for him.
Even if he demands a trade, every team in the NHL that doesn't have Hasek, Brodeur (and maybe, a big MAYBE, Belfour) would be interested. You start a bidding war and get the most out of it.

McDonagh was a prospect, not one of the best Dman in the NHL. And he was never pegged to become one of the best Dman in the NHL either, nor is he today.

I'm not knocking on McDo, he's had a terrific year. But it's not even comparable to the Roy trade. Trading an established superstar in the NHL is much worse than trading a 2-4 D prospect at the time.

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05-19-2012, 04:14 PM
  #29
le_sean
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Quote:
Originally Posted by habitue View Post
The Rangers have Staal and Girardi... two experienced d-men

What does the Habs have ?
Staal and Girardi? They would play with 5 forwards and Del Zotto when down a goal.

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05-19-2012, 04:22 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by le_sean View Post
Staal and Girardi? They would play with 5 forwards and Del Zotto when down a goal.
Sorry. I misread. I thought you wrote leading by one goal istead of trailing. But Subban is pretty much alone, especially with markov gone for so long.

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05-19-2012, 04:36 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by feds91 View Post
I'm watching today's Rangers/Devils game and Ryan McDonagh is quickly turning into a stud defenceman. He's a future all star for sure!
You just noticed this now? That's odd.

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05-19-2012, 04:39 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by le_sean View Post
Stop crying about McDonagh. It's payback for getting Kovalev for Balej. **** like this happens all the time.

And McDonagh is awesome, but he's not better than Subban. Defensively, sure, but offensively, it's not really close.
You know I like you. I really really do. But man....tell me you are not serious. Most people in here would have booted out Kovalev in year 2. Yet happened to play 4 good years. But McDonagh will be a force and then some for the next 10 years. In a position that is tougher to find good people in. With a team that will most likely get to a Cup Final. Which Kovalev, while not entirely his fault, was never able to do. It's far from being payback. And frankly, deal for deal, you know that Plekanec was also in that deal. That the Rangers could have taken him and went for Balej instead. While we chose to give up on a guy who didn't have an incredible WJC and get a guy paid way too much that the other team desperately wanted to get rid of.

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05-19-2012, 04:40 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by le_sean View Post
1st place team vs 15th.

If the Rangers are down a goal with a minute left, they don't even consider McDonagh. Subban is the first one off the bench for Montreal. They are also both on the ice if they are up a goal with a minute left. Because of that I think Subban has the edge.
... that was big circle there.

The Habs have nobody else so they put Subban out, The Rangers have depth so they don't put McDonagh out? (Which isn't true at all btw... McDonagh is leading all players in ice time this playoffs)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
There is absolutely no reason to get less return, even if the keeper wants out, for a superstar. You're talking about one of the, if not the, best goalie of all time.
You don't get bad returns for him.
Even if he demands a trade, every team in the NHL that doesn't have Hasek, Brodeur (and maybe, a big MAYBE, Belfour) would be interested. You start a bidding war and get the most out of it.

McDonagh was a prospect, not one of the best Dman in the NHL. And he was never pegged to become one of the best Dman in the NHL either, nor is he today.

I'm not knocking on McDo, he's had a terrific year. But it's not even comparable to the Roy trade. Trading an established superstar in the NHL is much worse than trading a 2-4 D prospect at the time.
Roy demanded a trade... he wasn't playing another game for them and everyone knew it. Could they have gotten far more? Absolutely, but it does diminish his value significantly. You're not just trading a guy to get a good return, you're trading a guy because you have to.

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Old
05-19-2012, 04:41 PM
  #34
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Leaning more and more on the mcdonaugh trade... Its just inexcusable

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05-19-2012, 04:58 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by Redux91 View Post
Leaning more and more on the mcdonaugh trade... Its just inexcusable
Everytime I see him play I tell myself the trade hurts to a whole new level.

What a disgrace of a trade.

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05-19-2012, 05:26 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
You know I like you. I really really do. But man....tell me you are not serious. Most people in here would have booted out Kovalev in year 2. Yet happened to play 4 good years. But McDonagh will be a force and then some for the next 10 years. In a position that is tougher to find good people in. With a team that will most likely get to a Cup Final. Which Kovalev, while not entirely his fault, was never able to do. It's far from being payback. And frankly, deal for deal, you know that Plekanec was also in that deal. That the Rangers could have taken him and went for Balej instead. While we chose to give up on a guy who didn't have an incredible WJC and get a guy paid way too much that the other team desperately wanted to get rid of.
Payback is the wrong word. I just meant these things happen. It really really sucks, but we fleeced them and they fleeced us. Kovalev gave us the best regular season we've seen since 1989. He also gave us some of the best upsets in Habs playoff history. In the end it means nothing, but it was fun when it happened. Obviously it's not fair to say these trades cancel each other out, but I just want people to move on. We don't see Sharks fans moaning everytime Pacioretty scores a goal or Gorges makes a great shot block. We need to stop clinging on.

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Old
05-19-2012, 05:27 PM
  #37
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Subban would play just as many minutes in New York if you swapped him straight up for McDonagh

They are different defenseman with different skillsets, McDonagh being your more stable or traditional defenseman. Doesnt mean hes better, or worse.

People forget just how dominant of a two-way force Subban was against the Bruins in the first round last season. He completely eliminated their first line, and they arent small guys either. He can shut it down while playing 27-30 mins a game too. Infact he was better than Chara in that series.

As for the topic, its the Roy trade and not even close. It was the defining moment where this franchise became irrelevant until basicly 2008, and you could make a point its still irrelevant today.

People really do need to stop talking about Mcdonagh already. We have Tinordi and Beaulieu coming up, and while they may never be as good (they also could be?) they're very good prospects.

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05-19-2012, 05:37 PM
  #38
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Ryan McDonagh is a good player and it sucks to lose him. Scott Gomez isn't a very good player any more (still, where's McD's Stanley Cup and Calder Trophy?) and it sucks to have him and his contract.

But really, do you guys realize the best forward that played for us in the last decade we got for Josef Balej? Sather chose him over Tomas Plekanec when BG gave him the choice. OMG- Sather is an idiot?!?!?!1111

Every team makes bad trades, yes- our team made an AWFUL one. But when will people stop whining about it? For all we know, Gainey offered a choice between Fischer, McDonagh, and PK and that's who they chose.

And people saying they'd take McDonagh over Subban? Give me a break. McDonagh has been playing wonderful hockey and is a good defenceman but Subban has star power and in a year or two when he is cruising us through the playoffs while trolling the rest of the league, all will be ok.

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Old
05-19-2012, 05:46 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by habitue View Post
We can just speculate and pretend that McDonagh would not had been as good in Montreal than in NY. He could still be playing in Hamilton. As Tortorella said, McDo had a crash course at NHL level because of the many injuries to the regular Rangers D-men. Do you really think that Martin would had given McDo so much ice time ?

But...

McDo is a way safer d-man than PK, and he is as good as a skater.
I fully agree McDo is safer than Subban. On the other hand when Subban is on his game he can take full control of it. Subban's offensive upside is not even peaking yet.
McDo better defensively. Subban better offense, hits, and trolling.

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05-19-2012, 05:46 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by JC93 View Post
Ryan McDonagh is a good player and it sucks to lose him. Scott Gomez isn't a very good player any more (still, where's McD's Stanley Cup and Calder Trophy?) and it sucks to have him and his contract.

But really, do you guys realize the best forward that played for us in the last decade we got for Josef Balej? Sather chose him over Tomas Plekanec when BG gave him the choice. OMG- Sather is an idiot?!?!?!1111

Every team makes bad trades, yes- our team made an AWFUL one. But when will people stop whining about it? For all we know, Gainey offered a choice between Fischer, McDonagh, and PK and that's who they chose.

And people saying they'd take McDonagh over Subban? Give me a break. McDonagh has been playing wonderful hockey and is a good defenceman but Subban has star power and in a year or two when he is cruising us through the playoffs while trolling the rest of the league, all will be ok.
Rofl... until he meets the Leafs and he gets destroyed by Phaneuf leading to the Leafs winning the cup...

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Old
05-19-2012, 05:50 PM
  #41
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Rofl... until he meets the Leafs and he gets destroyed by Phaneuf leading to the Leafs winning the cup...
Hey look, a troll.

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Old
05-19-2012, 05:51 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by le_sean View Post
Payback is the wrong word. I just meant these things happen. It really really sucks, but we fleeced them and they fleeced us. Kovalev gave us the best regular season we've seen since 1989. He also gave us some of the best upsets in Habs playoff history. In the end it means nothing, but it was fun when it happened. Obviously it's not fair to say these trades cancel each other out, but I just want people to move on. We don't see Sharks fans moaning everytime Pacioretty scores a goal or Gorges makes a great shot block. We need to stop clinging on.
There is a huge difference between the Sharks and the Habs. We HAD that player. We knew him. We decided to move him based on the things we knew about him. Sharks send a pick. There's no way they'd know their scout group would have picked him. The Rivet deal was a great deal for us. But in no way detrimental to them THAT much except the Gorges part. But while valuable...you are not talking about the type of player that McDonagh is becoming. See, when I bash our team for trading 1st or 2nd rounders, I don't bash tme because of the player the other team picked....but based on the pick we could have had and use Timmins to work his magic on.

And the Kovalev trade ended up one sided thanks to the Balej injury but also thanks to something else....We ended up trading a 2nd round draft pick as well. Rangers chose Bruce Graham with that pick. But then, if they would have chose the guy that left 2 picks behind in David Booth, they'd feel they would not have done so bad after all. Or Dubinsky, Goligoski or Krejci that all went in the 2nd round. But then, we could not have bashed our team for doing it. There's no way we'd know if we would have picked those guys. But for the Rangers, it would have been a better deal. Just like the Gorges-Pac-Rivet deal.

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Old
05-19-2012, 05:53 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
There is a huge difference between the Sharks and the Habs. We HAD that player. We knew him. We decided to move him based on the things we knew about him. Sharks send a pick. There's no way they'd know their scout group would have picked him. The Rivet deal was a great deal for us. But in no way detrimental to them THAT much except the Gorges part. But while valuable...you are not talking about the type of player that McDonagh is becoming. See, when I bash our team for trading 1st or 2nd rounders, I don't bash tme because of the player the other team picked....but based on the pick we could have had and use Timmins to work his magic on.

And the Kovalev trade ended up one sided thanks to the Balej injury but also thanks to something else....We ended up trading a 2nd round draft pick as well. Rangers chose Bruce Graham with that pick. But then, if they would have chose the guy that left 2 picks behind in David Booth, they'd feel they would not have done so bad after all. Or Dubinsky, Goligoski or Krejci that all went in the 2nd round. But then, we could not have bashed our team for doing it. There's no way we'd know if we would have picked those guys. But for the Rangers, it would have been a better deal. Just like the Gorges-Pac-Rivet deal.
Glad the Rangers took Balej and not Plekanec.

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Old
05-19-2012, 05:56 PM
  #44
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Dead horse, meet stick.

Stick, meet dead horse.
why? but i like to complain...

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Old
05-19-2012, 05:59 PM
  #45
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Compairing McD trade with Roy trade, or LeClair? You must be kidding.

As for the McD trade, you win some, you lose some, learn to deal with it.

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05-19-2012, 06:07 PM
  #46
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Roy is the worse then I would say Chelios trade. McDo is great but Chelios was a beast.
Chelios is ugly though.

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Old
05-19-2012, 06:12 PM
  #47
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I'm watching today's Rangers/Devils game and Ryan McDonagh is quickly turning into a stud defenceman. He's a future all star for sure! So out of all the players the Habs traded away in the past 20 years, which one stings the most?

John Leclair and Eric Desjardins for Mark Recchi?
Patrick Roy and Mike Keane for Thibeault, Kovalenko and Rucinski?
Mike Ribeiro for Ninnimaa (sp?)?
Ryan McDonagh and Chris Higgins for Scott Gomez?
Which trade hurts most?

Chelios and a 2nd rounder for Savard. That's the worst Habs trade in my lifetime.

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05-19-2012, 06:13 PM
  #48
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Chelios is ugly though.
And Roy isn't?

The chicks sure loved Chelios.

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05-19-2012, 06:19 PM
  #49
MasterDecoy
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Chelios is ugly though.
not as ugly as ricci though

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Old
05-19-2012, 06:21 PM
  #50
Whitesnake
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Which trade hurts most?

Chelios and a 2nd rounder for Savard. That's the worst Habs trade in my lifetime.
True. One of the very worst. I don't see how Roy doesn't get the trophy though. But then, if we go value for value, Ribeiro for Niinimaa is awful. Kovalenko, Rucinski and Thibault didn't do a whole lot. Reechi had "some" good seasons with us while the others were obviously much much better. There are cases to make for everyone of them. Problem is that we've rarely fleeced the other teams as much. Like the Courtnall for Kordic trade.

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