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Old
06-04-2012, 02:49 PM
  #251
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Originally Posted by Libertine View Post
Trading picks is obviously the biggest culprit, but I think all of the above is an issue.

The lack of patience from the organization and the fans is the real crux of the problem. The fact that it was determined they could not win with 17 and 18 leading the team after 4 years which included a ECF and SCF appearance shows the thinking surrounding this team is backwards. They did receive good value in the trades so that is not the issue. It's the whole idea that you have to remake a team after 4 years with a good amount of playoff success that is flawed to say the least.

The organization and fans need to be able to put things into perspective. They don't need to react each time they fail to win the Cup. Only one team out of 30 wins year and you need as much luck as skill on your side. There's no need to make a major move every offseason. Sometimes the best moves are the ones you don't make.
That's what's exasperating. I hope they figure it out for this season.

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06-04-2012, 02:52 PM
  #252
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Originally Posted by Libertine View Post
Trading picks is obviously the biggest culprit, but I think all of the above is an issue.

The lack of patience from the organization and the fans is the real crux of the problem. The fact that it was determined they could not win with 17 and 18 leading the team after 4 years which included a ECF and SCF appearance shows the thinking surrounding this team is backwards. They did receive good value in the trades so that is not the issue. It's the whole idea that you have to remake a team after 4 years with a good amount of playoff success that is flawed to say the least.

The organization and fans need to be able to put things into perspective. They don't need to react each time they fail to win the Cup. Only one team out of 30 wins year and you need as much luck as skill on your side. There's no need to make a major move every offseason. Sometimes the best moves are the ones you don't make.
Time had something to do with it, but there were other concerns too. You can't ignore that.

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06-04-2012, 04:57 PM
  #253
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Originally Posted by hckyplayer8 View Post
The goalie merry go round was a product of the coach. It was Pete's fault for sticking with Bob most of the season and then sat him in favor for Boosh (who has proven time after time that he is not starter material.

No matter what, signing an unproven player to a unmovable, long term contract is not the answer. Ever.

As much as it takes numerous good moves to build a team, one bad move can tear it down.

If Bryz does not pick it up, he will be that one bad move.

I would of stuck with Bob personally. The kid has the work ethic, and athletic ability to be a starter and excelled for the majority of his rookie year.

The fact that the league figured out his one weakness shouldn't have made Pete sit him.

If you would have forced me to pick up a goalie, I already stated numerous times I liked Nabakov because his play would easily reflect the contract we could have signed him to....something that would be nowhere near Bryz's garbage contract.





Huh? Just because I dislike the Bryz signing doesn't mean I want a goalie roulette.

What the hell kind of logic is "There was no merry go round this year, so he is a good sign?"
Nabokov would be another short term solution like beezer but you were 5 years old when that happened so you wouldn't understand. i bring up your age cause i see a lot of the younger guys have certain opinions but some of us old heads (your 23, I'm 36) have been there done that with those options. at one point boucher was considered the future and thats why clarke signed beezer over cujo. It was a waste of time and probably cost us a cup. Bryzgalov was the best move. you say he was unproven but he was. He is vezina caliber and He is better than his numbers showed last year (which weren't bad btw. he won over 30 games). I truly believe there are people who did not watch him play in phoenix or anaheim who have negative opinions on him and say dave tippett created him which is b.s. we did the right thing. your avatar is stupid and if you were a little older you'd understand. bobrovsky is the new boucher. bryz will be better but we need better defenseman and a better defensive system to help him or anyone who plays goal for us out.

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Old
06-04-2012, 05:21 PM
  #254
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Originally Posted by Fish Invictus View Post
Looking at the team in the offseason of 09 I thought they had the potential to go to the Finals and even win a Cup at some point in the near future; when they got Pronger I thought that was only confirmed. Looking at the team now I see little reason to be so optimistic. The goaltending mystery remains unsolved and possibly is worse than before due to the cap hit involved. The team's defensive abilities in general have declined. The D corps overall has quite a few flaws and no easy solutions in sight. Unless Holmgren has a beastly offseason or something unexpected happens it seems like this team is pretty far away from being realistic competitors.
If they get Suter in offseason (which they may overpay for) and develop a young defenseman from the draft, the defense will be alright. Yes it is tough to say that they will outright get Suter, but I have a feeling it's between us and Detroit. If Homer wants him, he'll get him. He may have to overpay, but he'll get him if Snider puts the pressure on him. I don't think the defense needs a complete overhaul. They have some good pieces, they're just forced into roles that they shouldn't be used for.

Couturier, Schenn, Voracek, Read, and Wellwood should all develop into at least average to above average two way players. I was really pleased to see how good offensively these guys were this season. They can be taught how to be better defensively. You can't teach a guy to score, he either has it or he doesn't.

Bryz is still a wildcard. I'm willing to give him another season in the hopes that he finds his game. I personally think the Tippet excuse if overused. A goalie still has to be talented to put up the numbers that he did in both Anaheim and Phoenix.

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Old
06-04-2012, 06:03 PM
  #255
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Originally Posted by BringBackStevens View Post
As others have mentioned, having Kopitar, Brown, and Doughty is really not that different from having Giroux, Briere/Hartnell, and Pronger.
Not that different? Kopitar and Brown both play 200 ft, Giroux at times, Hartnell sporadically, and Briere hardly at all.

Doughty & Pronger? If you're talking about the 05-07 Pronger not that much different. The Pronger of 08-12 (assuming he isn't out with the concussion) is a little behind Doughty, even though he is a rookie.

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06-04-2012, 06:08 PM
  #256
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Originally Posted by MsWoof View Post
That's what's exasperating. I hope they figure it out for this season.
The converse is also true though. You don't have to refrain from making a big move every offseason or only make one every 2-3 years or whatever it is your alternative would be just because. If you have an opportunity to make your team better, you do it. If that means three years in a row you make a huge move, then do it. If that means once every ten years, then do it.

Since Homer took over there have been two major offseasons (Pronger's year and last offseason). The only way I see another big move this offseason is if they get a big time defender like Suter or Weber, which I don't think anyone would really complain about (or at least legitimately complain about).

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06-04-2012, 06:11 PM
  #257
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Originally Posted by 35NW8ING View Post
Not that different? Kopitar and Brown both play 200 ft, Giroux at times, Hartnell sporadically, and Briere hardly at all.

Doughty & Pronger? If you're talking about the 05-07 Pronger not that much different. The Pronger of 08-12 (assuming he isn't out with the concussion) is a little behind Doughty, even though he is a rookie.
Exactly. Dustin Brown is a lot more valuable of a player on that team than most people on this board give him credit for. Just look back to some of the trade deadline threads when people were calling me crazy because I said I'd trade JVR for Dustin Brown. The guy plays in all situations, plays a ton of minutes, plays good defense, and is consistently among the league leaders in hits. Kopitar is on the same level as Giroux I'd say, maybe a little behind and I'd take him over Briere and Hartnell every day of the week (and Briere is probably my favorite player). The Doughty/Pronger comparison doesn't hold much water when talking about present day Pronger. He has been good the last two years or so (when not injured), but Doughty has been at least as good if not better.

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Old
06-04-2012, 06:16 PM
  #258
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Originally Posted by 35NW8ING View Post
Not that different? Kopitar and Brown both play 200 ft, Giroux at times, Hartnell sporadically, and Briere hardly at all.

Doughty & Pronger? If you're talking about the 05-07 Pronger not that much different. The Pronger of 08-12 (assuming he isn't out with the concussion) is a little behind Doughty, even though he is a rookie.
I believe his point is that Richards and Carter had plenty of help and support in Philly too. Their roles in LA aren't horribly different from their roles here.

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06-04-2012, 09:16 PM
  #259
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
Exactly. Dustin Brown is a lot more valuable of a player on that team than most people on this board give him credit for. Just look back to some of the trade deadline threads when people were calling me crazy because I said I'd trade JVR for Dustin Brown. The guy plays in all situations, plays a ton of minutes, plays good defense, and is consistently among the league leaders in hits. Kopitar is on the same level as Giroux I'd say, maybe a little behind and I'd take him over Briere and Hartnell every day of the week (and Briere is probably my favorite player). The Doughty/Pronger comparison doesn't hold much water when talking about present day Pronger. He has been good the last two years or so (when not injured), but Doughty has been at least as good if not better.
Kopitar doesnt have the stick ability that Giroux does (99% of the NHL doesnt though)...but he's also 6'4 225 lbs. I really hope Schenn is able to bulk up a little.

I'd love it if we could get our hands on martin hanzal.

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06-04-2012, 09:19 PM
  #260
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Originally Posted by achdumeingute View Post
Kopitar doesnt have the stick ability that Giroux does (99% of the NHL doesnt though)...but he's also 6'4 225 lbs. I really hope Schenn is able to bulk up a little.

I'd love it if we could get our hands on martin hanzal.
Schenn isn't a thin guy as it is, he's just not got that large a frame.

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06-04-2012, 09:23 PM
  #261
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Originally Posted by 35NW8ING View Post
Briere hardly at all.
You are being extremely generous here.

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06-04-2012, 09:25 PM
  #262
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Originally Posted by Giroux tha Damaja View Post
Schenn isn't a thin guy as it is, he's just not got that large a frame.
He's 6 ft tall, 195. I hope he can get 10-15 lbs more by age 23.

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06-04-2012, 09:43 PM
  #263
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People can talk about the Kings dedication to defensive play all they want, but Quick has been stoning grade A chances. It's not like LA hasn't given up quality opportunies. He's the reason the team squeaked into the playoffs, and he's the reason they're about to win the cup.

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06-04-2012, 09:57 PM
  #264
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Originally Posted by funghoul View Post
Nabokov would be another short term solution like beezer but you were 5 years old when that happened so you wouldn't understand. i bring up your age cause i see a lot of the younger guys have certain opinions but some of us old heads (your 23, I'm 36) have been there done that with those options. at one point boucher was considered the future and thats why clarke signed beezer over cujo. It was a waste of time and probably cost us a cup. Bryzgalov was the best move. you say he was unproven but he was. He is vezina caliber and He is better than his numbers showed last year (which weren't bad btw. he won over 30 games). I truly believe there are people who did not watch him play in phoenix or anaheim who have negative opinions on him and say dave tippett created him which is b.s. we did the right thing. your avatar is stupid and if you were a little older you'd understand. bobrovsky is the new boucher. bryz will be better but we need better defenseman and a better defensive system to help him or anyone who plays goal for us out.
So much lolz in this post.

Vezina caliber? Really?

You do realize that the highest GAA of the past 10 winners has been Kolzig in '99 with a 2.24? Bryz's best is a single year of 2.29. Outside of that one year he features consistent GAA of 2.4x or more, which is nothing but average.

.914 (Brodeur in '02) is the worst save % in the past 10 years. Bryz has only mustered that or slightly better in 3 of 8 seasons in the NHL (.921,.921,.920)

Then got to love the fact that you think giving an average goaltender a huge, unmovable contract is somehow the "best move".

Top that off with "he is better than last years numbers" argument. Well lets see... 2.48 GAA and .909 Sav%. His NHL average is 2.52 and .915. So I would say if anything is was average to slightly better than average this year.

You may think my avatar is stupid (wah) but your opinions and "facts" are not only stupid but they are down right wrong.

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06-04-2012, 10:14 PM
  #265
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Originally Posted by hckyplayer8 View Post
Vezina caliber? Really?
He finished second in Vezina Trophy voting like two years ago. I believe that would be considered Vezina Trophy caliber.

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06-04-2012, 10:19 PM
  #266
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He finished second in Vezina Trophy voting like two years ago. I believe that would be considered Vezina Trophy caliber.
Idk dude. They guy has a great year, gets on the ballot but doesn't win.

Doesn't exactly scream Vezina to me.

Other than that one year he as been terribly mediocre here in the NHL.

Jeff Carter!

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06-04-2012, 10:20 PM
  #267
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I hope this isnt considered trolling, as I legitimately want to know.

An awful lot of Flyer fans were going on about how Richards was better than Crosby and Ovechkin...now in this thread it seems the consensus is he is a support player...not a reliable main guy.

Thats a pretty massive swing in opinion. He cant have gone that far down hill...can he?

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06-04-2012, 10:23 PM
  #268
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Originally Posted by SilverSeven View Post
I hope this isnt considered trolling, as I legitimately want to know.

An awful lot of Flyer fans were going on about how Richards was better than Crosby and Ovechkin...now in this thread it seems the consensus is he is a support player...not a reliable main guy.

Thats a pretty massive swing in opinion. He cant have gone that far down hill...can he?
Its Philly. Home of the "grass is always greener on the other side" fans.

The fact that Carter and Richards are about to get a Cup and we are stuck with the BUM should tell you everything.

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06-04-2012, 10:23 PM
  #269
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Originally Posted by hckyplayer8 View Post
So much lolz in this post.

Vezina caliber? Really?

You do realize that the highest GAA of the past 10 winners has been Kolzig in '99 with a 2.24? Bryz's best is a single year of 2.29. Outside of that one year he features consistent GAA of 2.4x or more, which is nothing but average.

.914 (Brodeur in '02) is the worst save % in the past 10 years. Bryz has only mustered that or slightly better in 3 of 8 seasons in the NHL (.921,.921,.920)

Then got to love the fact that you think giving an average goaltender a huge, unmovable contract is somehow the "best move".

Top that off with "he is better than last years numbers" argument. Well lets see... 2.48 GAA and .909 Sav%. His NHL average is 2.52 and .915. So I would say if anything is was average to slightly better than average this year.

You may think my avatar is stupid (wah) but your opinions and "facts" are not only stupid but they are down right wrong.
So he's career numbers are better than his previous year's numbers...GAA is much more of a team stat than SV%... yet you're saying he was above average for his standards last year. Also, he's been nominated for a Vezina before.

You might want to refrain from calling other people stupid.

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06-04-2012, 10:24 PM
  #270
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I believe his point is that Richards and Carter had plenty of help and support in Philly too. Their roles in LA aren't horribly different from their roles here.
Their Goalie is though...

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06-04-2012, 10:26 PM
  #271
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Trading picks is obviously the biggest culprit, but I think all of the above is an issue.

The lack of patience from the organization and the fans is the real crux of the problem. ...
The organization and fans need to be able to put things into perspective. ...
I was thinking about this after I made my post and I agree. I think that the organization, fans, and media all hurt the ability for us to rebuild, retool, or develop properly. If goes back to thinking that we have to win every season (and the desire to sell tickets and merchandise, etc). Now it should be that the goal every season is to win the cup, but the chances of doing so aren't always going to be realistic. The teams that seem (and I use the term seem to mean that I'm not there so I don't know) to be in markets where the media doesn't seem to be focused on hockey (such as Phoenix) tend be have a chance to be less pressured to do the things the Flyers do such as patch-work trades, trading prospects, rushing development of players, signing players to huge overpriced contracts, and continue to do well due to the systems they play and the talent they are able to ice.

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06-04-2012, 10:28 PM
  #272
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Originally Posted by SilverSeven View Post
I hope this isnt considered trolling, as I legitimately want to know.

An awful lot of Flyer fans were going on about how Richards was better than Crosby and Ovechkin...now in this thread it seems the consensus is he is a support player...not a reliable main guy.

Thats a pretty massive swing in opinion. He cant have gone that far down hill...can he?
Who the hell said Richards was better than Crosby and Ovechkin?

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06-04-2012, 10:30 PM
  #273
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Who the hell said Richards was better than Crosby and Ovechkin?
I see you have only been here about 2 years. Visit some past threads on the main board (where the worst of each fanbase goes to be most vocal...but still)

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06-04-2012, 10:32 PM
  #274
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So he's career numbers are better than his previous year's numbers...GAA is much more of a team stat than SV%... yet you're saying he was above average for his standards last year. Also, he's been nominated for a Vezina before.

You might want to refrain from calling other people stupid.
The argument of which stat is more reflective of a goaltenders performance is stupid. They are equal.

Fine, if last year wasn't slightly (ill bold that for you since you must have overlooked it) above average, then it was average and further validates my point that the "last years numbers doesn't reflect how good he can play" argument is bogus.

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06-04-2012, 10:33 PM
  #275
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I see you have only been here about 2 years. Visit some past threads on the main board (where the worst of each fanbase goes to be most vocal...but still)
I've been here longer than that, just as a lurker. I've never seen "an awful lot" of Flyers fan say that. Only idiots.

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