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06-03-2012, 01:44 AM
  #201
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Ok people. I've been Carter and Richards fans since they were in juniors, but let's not get it twisted. First of all when they were on the Flyers and we almost one they were the players who were/should be carrying the team, and we didn't win. On the Kings team right now they're important but secondary players. Big difference. Jeff Carter scored an OT winner tonight. Back in 2010 he whiffed big time on an open net in OT of game 6. He scores there who knows were we are now. They were great important players on the Flyers I don't be grudge them a chance to win a cup with another team, but they don't have the same level of importance on this kings team as they did on the Flyers. If we won the Cup when they were on the Flyers it would be largely be because of them. If the Kings win it's because they were good supporting players.
that's true, although you can see that richards and carter aren't first line type of players like crosby and malkin like they were killing it in points, they were more like secondary players on the flyers, if they had a big time first line center/winger, i think richards and carter would have been more productive in the playoffs for the flyers and maybe winning a cup.

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06-03-2012, 01:56 AM
  #202
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So, he's like Max Afinogenov. Someone who looks like he has the ability, but doesn't generally put it together. Voracek has more points than Afinogenov at the same age, and Voracek has Lavy's trust on defense, but he's still likely to top out as a 2nd line player
Not at all, I much prefer what he brings to the table over Afinogenov's game. . Max Afinogenov had one or two tools and was a 60 point player in systems that called on him to be a primary offensive threat. Voracek scores almost as much as a secondary offensive threat and has a lot more to his game away from the puck. When he gets assertive on D he is really effective. I was pretty impressed by some games in the first round this year where I thought he showed another gear defensively than he had before.

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06-03-2012, 02:11 AM
  #203
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that's true, although you can see that richards and carter aren't first line type of players like crosby and malkin like they were killing it in points, they were more like secondary players on the flyers, if they had a big time first line center/winger, i think richards and carter would have been more productive in the playoffs for the flyers and maybe winning a cup.
Well yeah, but if they had a big time first line center/winger they wouldn't have to so much be the front line players they were relied on to be. Maybe they shouldn't have been, but as much as I liked Carter when you're a guy who can score 46 goals in a season and be among the best scores in the league you shouldn't need to be a 'secondary player' to win.

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06-03-2012, 06:27 AM
  #204
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Well yeah, but if they had a big time first line center/winger they wouldn't have to so much be the front line players they were relied on to be. Maybe they shouldn't have been, but as much as I liked Carter when you're a guy who can score 46 goals in a season and be among the best scores in the league you shouldn't need to be a 'secondary player' to win.
There is such a thing as a career year. Isn't like he's hitting 40+ year after year.

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06-03-2012, 11:27 AM
  #205
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Cartsie only scores in blowouts
Cartsie only scores against bad teams
Cartsie doesn't perform in the playoffs
Cartsie can't hit the net
Cartsie isn't clutch

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06-03-2012, 12:23 PM
  #206
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Ok people. I've been Carter and Richards fans since they were in juniors, but let's not get it twisted. First of all when they were on the Flyers and we almost one they were the players who were/should be carrying the team, and we didn't win. On the Kings team right now they're important but secondary players. Big difference. Jeff Carter scored an OT winner tonight. Back in 2010 he whiffed big time on an open net in OT of game 6. He scores there who knows were we are now. They were great important players on the Flyers I don't be grudge them a chance to win a cup with another team, but they don't have the same level of importance on this kings team as they did on the Flyers. If we won the Cup when they were on the Flyers it would be largely be because of them. If the Kings win it's because they were good supporting players.
This needs to be saved and posted everytime this issue comes up. They are necessary supporting playes on the Kings. They are not even the most important players on that team. There would be 4 or five ahead of them. With us they were in the top 3. Carter had a bleh year (with injuries) and has been decent in the playoffs, but not great and the Kings have done great. When with the Flyers Carter was counted on to score goals in a way he is not on the Kings.

In all of this conversation though, the Kings are not here without the defense and goaltending they have. If we still had Carter and Richards, we still wouldn't win because our defense and goaltending was vastly inferior to the Kings.

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06-03-2012, 02:07 PM
  #207
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Its to bad Carter couldn't have been that clutch for us, Flyers luck

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06-03-2012, 02:08 PM
  #208
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A whole lot of denial going on in here...

You really can't accept the fact, that it was not a good idea to trade away two pretty important players, and you really can't accept the fact that those two guys are playing a big part in winning the Stanley Cup this year (it seems).

You keep talking about having a young team. Well guess what, Kings also has a pretty young team... AND the Cup (it seems).

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06-03-2012, 02:11 PM
  #209
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A whole lot of denial going on in here...

You really can't accept the fact, that it was not a good idea to trade away two pretty important players, and you really can't accept the fact that those two guys are playing a big part in winning the Stanley Cup this year (it seems).

You keep talking about having a young team. Well guess what, Kings also has a pretty young team... AND the Cup (it seems).
So are you suggesting we'd win a Cup if we kept those two? Who's in goal? Boucher? Leighton? You think we'd win a Cup with either of those? Without Pronger or Mezaros?

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06-03-2012, 02:15 PM
  #210
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Originally Posted by Vandalay Industries View Post
A whole lot of denial going on in here...

You really can't accept the fact, that it was not a good idea to trade away two pretty important players, and you really can't accept the fact that those two guys are playing a big part in winning the Stanley Cup this year (it seems).

You keep talking about having a young team. Well guess what, Kings also has a pretty young team... AND the Cup (it seems).
It was a fine idea, you're just trying to twist things to your view.

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06-03-2012, 02:15 PM
  #211
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Its to bad Carter couldn't have been that clutch for us, Flyers luck
It helps the guy is having a rare, fully healthy post season.


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So are you suggesting we'd win a Cup if we kept those two? Who's in goal? Boucher? Leighton? You think we'd win a Cup with either of those? Without Pronger or Mezaros?
We aren't winning a Cup with the BUM in net either.

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06-03-2012, 02:16 PM
  #212
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So are you suggesting we'd win a Cup if we kept those two? Who's in goal? Boucher? Leighton? You think we'd win a Cup with either of those? Without Pronger or Mezaros?

He should stick to latex discussions.

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06-03-2012, 02:18 PM
  #213
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It helps the guy is having a rare, fully healthy post season.

He was healthy in '09 though.

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06-03-2012, 02:23 PM
  #214
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Originally Posted by hckyplayer8 View Post
It helps the guy is having a rare, fully healthy post season.




We aren't winning a Cup with the BUM in net either.
jeff carter is injured. so there goes that argument. he sucked for us when he was healthy too. and what's all this "we" business. there's no way your talking about the flyers as "we" when you say everything that a guy who "isn't" a fan would say. you hate our players so why wouldn't you just go be a fan of a team with players you like? that and your 4 years old and know nothing about suffering as a flyers fan.

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06-03-2012, 02:26 PM
  #215
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He was healthy in '09 though.
Our '08/'09 loss to the Pens he was playing with a separated shoulder.

The Cup run year he posted 5 goals and 2 assists in 12 games after coming back from a broken foot (surgery and a plate placed) suffered during GM 4 against NJ.

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06-03-2012, 02:30 PM
  #216
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Originally Posted by hckyplayer8 View Post
It helps the guy is having a rare, fully healthy post season.




We aren't winning a Cup with the BUM in net either.
Where was our defense? Hurt. What about LA's defense? sSome of the best defense around. I would venture to put our forwards with LA's defense and goaltending, and I think we might win this year. Put LA's forwards with our defense and goaltending and they'd go nowhere.

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06-03-2012, 02:30 PM
  #217
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Any one who is actively cheering on Carter given how small he played in the postseason should turn in their Flyers fan cred. SMH at the Carter water carriers.

Richards is another matter but he's not a prime time first line guy and should never have been given the "C" -- he wasn't mature enough for the leadership role.

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06-03-2012, 02:33 PM
  #218
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Where was our defense? Hurt. What about LA's defense? sSome of the best defense around. I would venture to put our forwards with LA's defense and goaltending, and I think we might win this year. Put LA's forwards with our defense and goaltending and they'd go nowhere.
Right before we got bounced I posted that our team was top 8 in fewest shots against allowed, yet we were bottom 3 in goals allowed.

I wonder why?

The defense could most definitely be worked on, but Bryz's poo definitely stank more than the D's this season.

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06-03-2012, 02:40 PM
  #219
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Originally Posted by hckyplayer8 View Post
Right before we got bounced I posted that our team was top 8 in fewest shots against allowed, yet we were bottom 3 in goals allowed.

I wonder why?

The defense could most definitely be worked on, but Bryz's poo definitely stank more than the D's this season.
really? any other retarded facts you come up with for your anti flyers arguments? the flyers suck without the puck. bryzgalov and every other goalie we've put in this position under this system have looked pretty bad. i know its hard to comprehend though. BUM. you can't blame "one" player for that.

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06-03-2012, 02:41 PM
  #220
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Right before we got bounced I posted that our team was top 8 in fewest shots against allowed, yet we were bottom 3 in goals allowed.

I wonder why?

The defense could most definitely be worked on, but Bryz's poo definitely stank more than the D's this season.
I can't defend Bryz' play either, and I did not see enough games to have a clue about our team defense, which from the sounds of it was not very good. This is an obvious problem about getting rid of Carter and Richards who were good defensively. But if we still had Carter and Richards, we had so much money tied up with so many players (which I think is a problem of Holmgren's) that there would have been no way to acquire ANY goalie of value. I think keeping Carter and Richards would have left us in the same boat as before, a team with solid forwards who lack quality goaltending and defense due to Pronger's injury.

I think the team was built with this flaw and it could not be corrected (or attempted to be corrected) without jettisoning salary.

What would you have preferred the Flyers to do last off season? How would you have tried to correct the problems the team had? What do you think should have been done?

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06-03-2012, 02:43 PM
  #221
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I can't defend Bryz' play either, and I did not see enough games to have a clue about our team defense, which from the sounds of it was not very good. This is an obvious problem about getting rid of Carter and Richards who were good defensively. But if we still had Carter and Richards, we had so much money tied up with so many players (which I think is a problem of Holmgren's) that there would have been no way to acquire ANY goalie of value. I think keeping Carter and Richards would have left us in the same boat as before, a team with solid forwards who lack quality goaltending and defense due to Pronger's injury.

I think the team was built with this flaw and it could not be corrected (or attempted to be corrected) without jettisoning salary.

What would you have preferred the Flyers to do last off season? How would you have tried to correct the problems the team had? What do you think should have been done?
he would've signed vokoun. and we would've been out in the first round.

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06-03-2012, 02:52 PM
  #222
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Looking back, I don't know what I thought should have been done. I liked Carter and Richards, but I was kind of in favor of the trade because I didn't see the team really going anywhere. To me they were like the Donavan McNabb Eagles. Good enough to compete and make the playoffs, but not good enough to get over the top. The trades sort of created a do-over.

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06-03-2012, 02:57 PM
  #223
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Never saw game 2.
So... Who scored the OT goal?

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06-03-2012, 02:58 PM
  #224
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I can't defend Bryz' play either, and I did not see enough games to have a clue about our team defense, which from the sounds of it was not very good. This is an obvious problem about getting rid of Carter and Richards who were good defensively. But if we still had Carter and Richards, we had so much money tied up with so many players (which I think is a problem of Holmgren's) that there would have been no way to acquire ANY goalie of value. I think keeping Carter and Richards would have left us in the same boat as before, a team with solid forwards who lack quality goaltending and defense due to Pronger's injury.

I think the team was built with this flaw and it could not be corrected (or attempted to be corrected) without jettisoning salary.

What would you have preferred the Flyers to do last off season? How would you have tried to correct the problems the team had? What do you think should have been done?
I was originally a hater of the majority of the moves Homer did in the off season.

Hated we signed old man Jagr.
Hated we signed Talbot (still very much butt hurt about '08).
Hated we got rid of a consistent 40+ goal scorer for a bunch of unproven rookies.
Hated we got rid of our captain.
Hated we signed an unproven goaltender to a huge contract that would be unmovable if he turned into a flop.

One season into the books and I have no problem admitting

-I am now a huge Jagr fan. It sucks that his prime has come and gone, but now I can see why people love him on and off the ice.
-Absolutely adore Maxi Talbot. Again it did not take long to see why he was a fan favorite in Pitt. The guy just gives it everything he has every last shift and is a huge team friendly player.
-I would make the Jeff Carter trade everyday of the week and twice on Sunday.
-Feel very indifferent in getting rid of Richards. On paper Richards got us Simmonds, Schenn, Bryz, and Grossman. You would think we were the obvious winners, however stepping back you will see Simmonds and Schenn continue to look like potential long time pivotal pieces to any team they would be on....Bryz continues to be unproven and could potentially be the worst signing in the history of the organization......Grossman is obviously a huge addition to the D but obviously has medical issues and is getting up there in years. Lots of if/and/or/buts in this trade.
-I still absolutely hate the contract we gave Ilya Bryzgolav.

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06-03-2012, 02:59 PM
  #225
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Looking back, I don't know what I thought should have been done. I liked Carter and Richards, but I was kind of in favor of the trade because I didn't see the team really going anywhere. To me they were like the Donavan McNabb Eagles. Good enough to compete and make the playoffs, but not good enough to get over the top. The trades sort of created a do-over.
exactly. That is exactly how it was. I think we are ten times better considering the players we got in return. They showed how good they were this year some in their first year. but we need to fix the defense again because of pronger and bryz adjusted towards the end and will be an elite goalie for at least 4 or 5 years for us. some don't see that or have the patience to understand. When you've watched us come close but lose so many times than i don't mind waiting another year. I just need that cup soon. it just hurts to watch the kings win what we so desparatey want five seconds after taking our ex players.

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