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Trading a Center for a : Top line winger OR Top pairing defender?

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Old
05-21-2012, 09:33 AM
  #26
CB Joe
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Originally Posted by Ivan13 View Post
Money? Even tough Colorado isn't a big spender either in the last couple of years, but at least our owner has the money to spend and he previously showed he's willing to spend to win.
.

Well the owner hasn't really spent since the lock-out. Also, when you consider the drop in attendance and the significant raises our RFA's will get this off-season I don't really expect many additions this off-season.

I believe Forbes predicted a 2-3m profit for the Avs last season (not 100% sure on this figure). Now your adding aprox 5-10m in salary to re-sign the RFA's. Are the Avs likely to drop another 7m on top of that? It's possible, but I'm not entirely sure it's likely.

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05-21-2012, 09:44 AM
  #27
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Originally Posted by CobraAcesS View Post
Check it out OEL averaged 22:06 TOI/G and Yandle averaged 22:20 TOI/G in the regular season. That's pretty fN close, I would guess it wasn't that close at the beginning of the season which means somewhere in the season OEL started to over take Yandle.

In the playoffs its not even close.. OEL - 25:19 TOI/G Yandle is 4th on their team at 21:17 TOI/G

So there is truth to both OEL passing him in the second half of the regular season and clearly has surpassed him in the playoffs.


It would be painful but I think I would give up Duchene for Yandle straight up. IMO Yandle is better than Suter when hes at his best. He scores more points on average I think and from what I have seen watching games hes more physical as well. (Could be wrong just basing that on games Ive watched.)

Only one of Yandle and OEL was selected as an NHL all-star last year, it was Yandle and it's his second time being name an All-star. I'm also willing to bet during the regular season Yandle was matched against the tougher competition.

As far as the playoffs go, OEL has been more impressive. It's possible that Yandle is playing injured however, so I'm willing to wait until after Phoenix's playoff run to judge Yandle's contribution.

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05-21-2012, 10:08 AM
  #28
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Originally Posted by CB Joe View Post
.

Well the owner hasn't really spent since the lock-out. Also, when you consider the drop in attendance and the significant raises our RFA's will get this off-season I don't really expect many additions this off-season.

I believe Forbes predicted a 2-3m profit for the Avs last season (not 100% sure on this figure). Now your adding aprox 5-10m in salary to re-sign the RFA's. Are the Avs likely to drop another 7m on top of that? It's possible, but I'm not entirely sure it's likely.
Avs spent money after the lockout.

As for attendance, if the Avs ice a better team attendance will rise again.

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05-21-2012, 10:14 AM
  #29
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Avs spent money after the lockout.

As for attendance, if the Avs ice a better team attendance will rise again.
Exactly adding names and wins always means more at the gate than anything else.

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05-21-2012, 10:39 AM
  #30
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Originally Posted by CobraAcesS View Post
Exactly adding names and wins always means more at the gate than anything else.
It's the wins that matter more than the names.

The big issue right now is that there is very little buzz about the Avs around Denver. Those of us who follow the team know that they are on the verge of being a contender, but that doesn't help get the casual fan in the arena for 41 home games a year. A little (more) advertising and some media exposure on non-Altitude channels would go a long way.

That being said, signing a guy like Parise or Suter isn't going to help attendance all that much. There might be a bump in jersey sales, but that's not a sustainable source of revenue.

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05-21-2012, 11:06 AM
  #31
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Why do you keep suggesting we trade Duchene? Please stop, 1) It won't happen, 2)IT WON'T HAPPEN.

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05-21-2012, 11:37 AM
  #32
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Simply put, I think we need to wait another couple years before we do anything drastic like trading away one of our Centers or our prospects.

Givve everyone a couple years playing together to see what were working with before we trade away the farm.

If everything goes as it should, Duchene, Downie, and Mueller will all be back at 100% and ready to go next year, lets see what Duchene can do healthy and not worrying about a contract anymore before we decide to trade him. And lets get a full season of Barrie and/or Elliott at the NHL level before we decide to add them in any deals.

Remember, were entering year 4 of a rebuild, and most rebuilds generally take 5+ years before a team is competitive, were on a good pace for our rebuild, as in year 3 we almost made the playoffs, another couple years at this pace and we'll be contenders.

And if something goes wrong, and we suck next year, well we have our 1st round pick this time, so doing terrible isnt the end of the world, as 1 more Top 3 or 4 pick is all we need at this point. Part of me wishes we had sucked 2 years ago instead of making playoffs. Imagine this team with Taylor Hall on the wing or Erik Gudbranson on the back end. Obviously making the playoffs is great, but we would be alot better off now with that extra Top 5 pick like the Oilers.

Anyway, I think it would be a huge mistake to make any big changes this offseason, besides going after Parise and Suter I think we should do nothing. Sign replacments if Jones or dare I say McClement arent resigned.

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05-21-2012, 11:40 AM
  #33
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If a top pairing defender is coming via a trade, Stastny (not Duchene) is going the other way. Duchene had a bad year, but this team knows what he can do and his potential (80-90 point top end). O'Reilly is ready to be a #2. The Avs won't trade Stastny yet because his experience and his at least 50-70 points are needed if Duchene struggles again. If Duchene plays well for the first half, I could see a trade centered around Yandle and Stastny next deadline.

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05-21-2012, 02:47 PM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CobraAcesS View Post
CAPGEEK.COM CAP CALCULATOR ROSTER
My Custom Lineup
FORWARDS
Zach Parise ($6.667m) / Paul Stastny ($6.600m) / Peter Mueller ($2.200m)
Magnus Paajarvi ($1.525m) / Ryan O'Reilly ($4.000m) / Gabriel Landeskog ($3.575m)
Jamie McGinn ($2.500m) / Martin Hanzal ($3.100m) / Steve Downie ($2.500m) (I think this line could just be called "The line of death" lol)
Chuck Kobasew ($1.250m) / Jay McClement ($1.800m) / Milan Hejduk ($2.000m)
Mark Olver ($0.900m) / Joey Hishon ($1.200m) / Brad Malone ($0.875m)
DEFENSEMEN
Erik Johnson ($4.500m) / Keith Yandle ($5.250m)
Jan Hejda ($3.250m) / Ryan O'Byrne ($1.800m)
Cameron Gaunce ($0.846m) / Ryan Wilson ($1.500m)
Stefan Elliott ($0.900m) / Duncan Siemens ($1.419m)
GOALTENDERS
Semyon Varlamov ($2.833m)
Jean-Sebastien Giguere ($1.250m)
------
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(these totals are compiled without the bonus cushion)
SALARY CAP: $64,300,000; CAP PAYROLL: $64,239,999; BONUSES: $4,247,500
CAP SPACE (25-man roster): $60,001
- Why do you have 25 man rosters? Its 23 tops
- There's no way Hishon plays on the Avs next year
- 3 rookie defenseman? And that 7th defenseman shouldn't be a rookie, more like an filler vet like Hunwick. Having 1 of Barrie-Elliott-Gaunce in the pressbox every night makes no sense when they can better develop playing top minutes with LEM. And personally, I don't want 2 of them dressed per game.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CobraAcesS View Post
The question now is which roster would you take or what would you do differently?

Are the trades and signings realistic? If not why? What would need to be changed?

If you were the GM how would you go about filling the holes on our roster this off-season? What would it look like when your done?
This is what I see next season, no trades. Just sign RFAs, retain some UFAs, and bring in 1 top 4 dman.

Jamie McGinn ($2.000m) / Paul Stastny ($6.600m) / David Jones ($3.750m)
Gabriel Landeskog ($3.575m) / Ryan O'Reilly ($4.000m) / Steve Downie ($2.500m)
Peter Mueller ($2.500m) / Matt Duchene ($4.500m) / Milan Hejduk ($2.000m)
Mark Olver ($1.000m) / Jay McClement ($2.000m) / Chuck Kobasew ($1.250m)
Brad Malone ($0.875m) / Patrick Bordeleau ($0.600m)

Matt Carle/Jason Garrison ($5.000m) / Erik Johnson ($4.500m)
Jan Hejda ($3.250m) / Ryan O'Byrne ($1.800m)
Ryan Wilson ($1.800m) / Tyson Barrie ($0.900m)
Matt Hunwick ($1.750m)

Semyon Varlamov ($2.833m)
Jean-Sebastien Giguere ($1.250m)

CAP PAYROLL: $60,233,333; BONUSES: $2,947,500
CAP SPACE (23-man roster): $4,066,667

That's 4 million in cap space with bonuses, ~7 without. If cap goes up to 69 mill like speculated, thats still 9-12 mill in cap space.

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Old
05-21-2012, 09:11 PM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cypher View Post
- Why do you have 25 man rosters? Its 23 tops
- There's no way Hishon plays on the Avs next year
- 3 rookie defenseman? And that 7th defenseman shouldn't be a rookie, more like an filler vet like Hunwick. Having 1 of Barrie-Elliott-Gaunce in the pressbox every night makes no sense when they can better develop playing top minutes with LEM. And personally, I don't want 2 of them dressed per game.



This is what I see next season, no trades. Just sign RFAs, retain some UFAs, and bring in 1 top 4 dman.

Jamie McGinn ($2.000m) / Paul Stastny ($6.600m) / David Jones ($3.750m)
Gabriel Landeskog ($3.575m) / Ryan O'Reilly ($4.000m) / Steve Downie ($2.500m)
Peter Mueller ($2.500m) / Matt Duchene ($4.500m) / Milan Hejduk ($2.000m)
Mark Olver ($1.000m) / Jay McClement ($2.000m) / Chuck Kobasew ($1.250m)
Brad Malone ($0.875m) / Patrick Bordeleau ($0.600m)

Matt Carle/Jason Garrison ($5.000m) / Erik Johnson ($4.500m)
Jan Hejda ($3.250m) / Ryan O'Byrne ($1.800m)
Ryan Wilson ($1.800m) / Tyson Barrie ($0.900m)
Matt Hunwick ($1.750m)

Semyon Varlamov ($2.833m)
Jean-Sebastien Giguere ($1.250m)

CAP PAYROLL: $60,233,333; BONUSES: $2,947,500
CAP SPACE (23-man roster): $4,066,667

That's 4 million in cap space with bonuses, ~7 without. If cap goes up to 69 mill like speculated, thats still 9-12 mill in cap space.
You missed the part where I said that those players are there to show depth and the cap hit would be a lot less because not all of them would be carried at one time.

The only real problem I have with your lineup is the Mueller - Duchene - Hejduk line. Who is going to play defense on that line? All three of those guys are finesse players and for a team that relies so much on the cycle that line does not work.

I think you have to swap McGinn and Mueller out to give each line a guy that is strong down low in the corners. It works if Jones is signed but to be honest it's barely a playoff team. Especially looking at teams like LA, and hoping Hejduk can be a sure fire contributor on those lines is not a good idea IMO.

Jones is also not worth 3.7M unless he hits the open market and some team wants to over pay him.

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05-21-2012, 09:23 PM
  #36
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Defenseman.

It's not even a question.

Even Cullen knew we needed a #1 defenseman and his hockey knowledge is on par with a semi-retarded blind squirrel's understanding of hockey, outside of Canada.

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05-21-2012, 09:48 PM
  #37
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Defenseman.

It's not even a question.

Even Cullen knew we needed a #1 defenseman and his hockey knowledge is on par with a semi-retarded blind squirrel's understanding of hockey, outside of Canada.
Ahh Lonewolfe yeah I was pretty sure you would like that one better. Out of all the guys out there that we would even have a chance of trading for Yandle is my favorite.

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05-21-2012, 10:38 PM
  #38
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Ahh Lonewolfe yeah I was pretty sure you would like that one better. Out of all the guys out there that we would even have a chance of trading for Yandle is my favorite.
I didn't even read them, I agree with the person who mentioned we wouldn't get Yandle + Hanzal for Duchy though. I don't see Yandle as realistic given Phoenix's financial problems at this time and Yandle's relatively high level of play for an affordable cost.

There aren't any #1 defenders out there for trade right now which would be affordable given our expendable assets. Ask a Blues fan, they've been looking for the past year.

We develop our guys, try to sign Suter and make the best out of a mediocre situation. Good thing is we have at least one #1 for now and the opportunity to evaluate our team going into next season and seeing what we have in some of our assets prior to making anymore big trades.

Without Suter joining us, I doubt we sign anyone else. In that case I'd like to give Wilson a shot on the top pairing with EJ and trade him at the deadline once his value is at the highest it'll be (similar to KQ). Then use Gaunce/Barrie in addition to Elliott in the defensive core.

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05-22-2012, 12:46 AM
  #39
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I really want Garrison if we can't get Suter. Him and EJ would be a great defensive pairing and would let us break up RoB and Hejda. I'm rooting for:
Garrison-EJ
Hejda-Wilson
Gaunce-O'Byrne

with Barrie starting the season in LEM and stepping in next to Hejda if someone gets hurt for any serious amount of time.

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Old
05-22-2012, 12:57 AM
  #40
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Would you guys do somethign around Lupul for Stastny?

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05-22-2012, 12:59 AM
  #41
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Would you guys do somethign around Lupul for Stastny?
Absolutely not. Only guys Toronto has that you could build a package for one of our centers for, are Kessel and Gardiner.

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05-22-2012, 12:59 AM
  #42
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I can see Hanzal has obvious value but after getting told Duchene and Hanzal have similar value. I scoffed.. This is the response I get..

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Hanzal is a DEFENSIVE forward, and a potential future selke winner. He shuts down the pacifics top centers, and thats priceless.
So Hanzal is O'Reilly but 4 years older? lol I find this hard to take seriously but whatever..

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05-22-2012, 01:04 AM
  #43
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Absolutely not. Only guys Toronto has that you could build a package for one of our centers for, are Kessel and Gardiner.
Ok, was just asking cause I saw title. :3c

Curious as to why you said Gardiner, I thought Colorado had a good number of puck moving prospects in the system?

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05-22-2012, 01:09 AM
  #44
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Ok, was just asking cause I saw title. :3c

Curious as to why you said Gardiner, I thought Colorado had a good number of puck moving prospects in the system?
We do hes mostly talking value but our two most ready guys in Elliott & Barrie are both right handed. Siemens is left handed but about a year or two away from being ready in most peoples eyes.

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05-22-2012, 01:51 AM
  #45
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Only player I would want is Kessel. He would be an amazing fit, but realistically that's not an option.

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05-22-2012, 05:26 AM
  #46
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Found this great site,

http://capgeek.com/free_agents.php?y...1&fa_type_id=2

It's got all UFAs.

We really need more depth to left side, there are not many options, so basically we are ****ed.

Parise, simply the best out of UFA group.
Smyth, second best option, but I can't see him coming back to Avalanche. He will re-sign with Edmonton.
Huselius could be had for cheap, but might be done. Good high-risk/big reward type of signing.
Hudler, probably too small and he's a ex red wing, so no.
Sturm, on a down spiral, I don't see huge potential in him anymore.
Hagman, he could add some depth on left side, but seems to be on down spiral too. He hasn't played that well for couple years.

Right side:

Doan, he's 35 and getting there in age, so I don't know. Sign him for 2 years and I'm happy.
Semin, could use him..


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05-22-2012, 06:42 AM
  #47
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What about we see what McGinn, Stastny, Jones, Mueller, Duchene, Lando, O'reilly, Downie, Hejduk and Olver can do in a top 9 role. If Hejduk, Duchene and Mueller fail again then next year you do a big move.

All the avs should do this year is get Suter or Wideman.

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05-22-2012, 08:37 AM
  #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CobraAcesS View Post
I can see Hanzal has obvious value but after getting told Duchene and Hanzal have similar value. I scoffed.. This is the response I get..

So Hanzal is O'Reilly but 4 years older? lol I find this hard to take seriously but whatever..
Duchy and Hanzal don't have similar value, but Hanzal has more value than you perceive him to.

He's O'Reilly pre-breakout. Meaning he has great value to his own club, less to certain other clubs such as ours that already has O'Reilly.

I find it hard to take seriously how often you try to flaunt your hockey knowledge yet demonstrate how much of a rookie you are at evaluating talent on a consistent basis. Rather than push your opinion as fact, consider reading more often than replying until you get a better grasp on the topic at hand.

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05-22-2012, 06:29 PM
  #49
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Found this great site
You're late to the party man

Even nhl.com uses capgeek as a source

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05-22-2012, 09:50 PM
  #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lonewolfe2015 View Post
Duchy and Hanzal don't have similar value, but Hanzal has more value than you perceive him to.

He's O'Reilly pre-breakout. Meaning he has great value to his own club, less to certain other clubs such as ours that already has O'Reilly.

I find it hard to take seriously how often you try to flaunt your hockey knowledge yet demonstrate how much of a rookie you are at evaluating talent on a consistent basis. Rather than push your opinion as fact, consider reading more often than replying until you get a better grasp on the topic at hand.
Ive stated clearly that I am not exactly sure how much value Hanzal has and that he does have value. As for Hanzal vs Duchene there is no question there.

Do you just have some need to flame everything I say? Because you ignore a lot of what I post at the same time.

When exactly do I try to flaunt my hockey knowledge? However it looks like that is exactly what your doing. Your post makes you sound more cocky than anything else. Get over yourself seriously.


Now this is JUST MY OPINION but Hanzal has 5 years in the league with every year being pretty consistent. When is he going to break out? 26? 27? Did he show flashes of breaking out this year? Because when you look at this last season it looks pretty consistent with his other years. Comparing O'Reilly & Hanzal is even a stretch AGAIN IMO because of their age. And again IMO O'Reilly is a lot better defensively in every area except physicality and beyond just what I have watched the stats back me up.

My scoff was at the comparison to Duchene and saying Hanzal will be a Sleke level defensive forward. Guess what? I am entitled to my opinion.


Last edited by CobraAcesS: 05-22-2012 at 10:11 PM.
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