HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > The Business of Hockey
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
The Business of Hockey Discuss the financial and business aspects of the NHL. Topics may include the CBA, work stoppages, broadcast contracts, franchise sales, NHL revenues, relocation and expansion.

Bettmans offer means no Ovechkin!

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old
12-18-2004, 07:37 PM
  #1
Ola
Registered User
 
Ola's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Sweden
Country: Sweden
Posts: 18,691
vCash: 500
Bettmans offer means no Ovechkin!

With the Rosno Cup beeing played in Russia at the moment one thing has become clear. The russians are trying really hard to challenge the NHL. There have been allot of talk in Russia about building a really strong Super Leauge, Fetisov has become a powerful person in russian politics and there doesn´t seems to be any shortage of cash since virutally all extremly rich oligarchs own or is involved in hockey clubs.

One of the affects with this would be that Alexander Ovechkin, and maybe even Kovalchuk probably won´t leave for the NHL once the season starts.

With Bettmans offer all the caps could offer Ovechkin would be 850K a year for his first four years. While in Russia Ovechkin could earn as much as 2-3 million a year. Russia also have a income tax at 13%, while USA has what 30%?

Ola is online now  
Old
12-18-2004, 07:54 PM
  #2
txomisc
Registered User
 
txomisc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: California
Country: United States
Posts: 8,637
vCash: 500
are you forgetting that the NHLPA itself also chose to throw young guys like Ovechkin under the bus?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ola
With the Rosno Cup beeing played in Russia at the moment one thing has become clear. The russians are trying really hard to challenge the NHL. There have been allot of talk in Russia about building a really strong Super Leauge, Fetisov has become a powerful person in russian politics and there doesn´t seems to be any shortage of cash since virutally all extremly rich oligarchs own or is involved in hockey clubs.

One of the affects with this would be that Alexander Ovechkin, and maybe even Kovalchuk probably won´t leave for the NHL once the season starts.

With Bettmans offer all the caps could offer Ovechkin would be 850K a year for his first four years. While in Russia Ovechkin could earn as much as 2-3 million a year. Russia also have a income tax at 13%, while USA has what 30%?

txomisc is offline  
Old
12-18-2004, 07:59 PM
  #3
It Kills Me
Registered User
 
It Kills Me's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 10,792
vCash: 500
That's why this lock-out and the owners demands are just plain stupid.

It Kills Me is offline  
Old
12-18-2004, 08:16 PM
  #4
SENSible1*
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,543
vCash: 500
Hope he has a good time.

SENSible1* is offline  
Old
12-18-2004, 10:05 PM
  #5
FLYLine24
The Mac Truck
 
FLYLine24's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: NY
Country: United States
Posts: 31,563
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skittles
That's why this lock-out and the owners demands are just plain stupid.
Yup..funny though the Canadian media doesnt bring things like this up...

FLYLine24 is offline  
Old
12-19-2004, 12:55 AM
  #6
me2
Seahawks 43
 
me2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Broncos 8
Country: Wallis & Futuna
Posts: 21,594
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ola
With the Rosno Cup beeing played in Russia at the moment one thing has become clear. The russians are trying really hard to challenge the NHL. There have been allot of talk in Russia about building a really strong Super Leauge, Fetisov has become a powerful person in russian politics and there doesn´t seems to be any shortage of cash since virutally all extremly rich oligarchs own or is involved in hockey clubs.

One of the affects with this would be that Alexander Ovechkin, and maybe even Kovalchuk probably won´t leave for the NHL once the season starts.

With Bettmans offer all the caps could offer Ovechkin would be 850K a year for his first four years. While in Russia Ovechkin could earn as much as 2-3 million a year. Russia also have a income tax at 13%, while USA has what 30%?
How much damage does this do to the "NHL is a monopoly" line.

It is still Ovechkin's best interests to sign a NHL contract.
$850K * 4
$4m * 4
$6m * 6

blows away $1-2m * 14


Last edited by me2: 12-19-2004 at 01:16 AM.
me2 is offline  
Old
12-19-2004, 01:24 AM
  #7
Epsilon
#TeamHolland
 
Epsilon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Florence, SC
Posts: 38,551
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by me2
How much damage does this do to the "NHL is a monopoly" line.
None. The NHL has a monopoly on top-level professional hockey in North America. No hockey league in North America is competitive with the NHL. Since the NHL does not conduct business in Europe and the Eruopean leagues do not conduct business in the United States, the European teams would almost certainly not be considered competition.

Epsilon is online now  
Old
12-19-2004, 01:36 AM
  #8
quat
winsome, loathsome
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Victoria BC
Posts: 10,063
vCash: 50
Send a message via ICQ to quat
Quote:
Originally Posted by me2
How much damage does this do to the "NHL is a monopoly" line.

It is still Ovechkin's best interests to sign a NHL contract.
$850K * 4
$4m * 4
$6m * 6

blows away $1-2m * 14
I don't think that having healthy leagues in other parts of the world is all that bad anyway.... but I agree that it's unlikely that the NHL will suddenly see a dramatic decrease in the number and quality of players hoping to make the league.

quat is offline  
Old
12-19-2004, 05:12 AM
  #9
me2
Seahawks 43
 
me2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Broncos 8
Country: Wallis & Futuna
Posts: 21,594
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Epsilon
None. The NHL has a monopoly on top-level professional hockey in North America. No hockey league in North America is competitive with the NHL. Since the NHL does not conduct business in Europe and the Eruopean leagues do not conduct business in the United States, the European teams would almost certainly not be considered competition.



http://www.bos.frb.org/economic/nerr...3/jbly99_3.htm

This is from a piece by someone from the Federal Reserve Bank of Boston (1999)


POWER PLAY

Two factors, in combination, are largely responsible for the enormous prosperity of big-time pro sports: a surge in demand and the market power of the leagues.

The “Big Four” are not actual monopolies. In fact, only Major League Baseball is exempt from federal antitrust laws. But the NBA, NFL, NHL, and MLB are able to generate tremendous revenues by using their market power to limit economic competition.

For starters, leagues restrict the overall number of franchises and guarantee each team a territorial monopoly. League approval and a steep franchise fee stand in the way of prospective new team owners, and leagues even have the power to block an owner from moving an existing team to a new city. (Unless, of course, the owner is Al Davis, who successfully sued the NFL when it tried to stop him from moving his Oakland Raiders to Los Angeles in 1979.)

Launching a new league is an option for anyone determined to own a pro sports team, but going head to head against the “Big Four” is no easy task. The one truly successful new league in modern sports history was the American Football League, and its survival proved the old adage that “timing is everything.” Conditions for starting a new pro football league were ideal in 1960: Fans were going wild for the game, the relationship between sports and television was beginning to flourish, and the NFL had been slow to expand into new markets.

But more often than not, new leagues fail. The American Basketball Association, the American Basketball League, and the World Hockey Association lasted only a few seasons. The United Baseball League never even made it to opening day. Lack of TV revenue and the competition for high-priced talent sealed their fate.



Also http://www.ftc.gov/bc/compguide/antitrst.htm

Lets assume the NHL is a monopoly or a defacto monopoly, has it violated the lesser competitors rights? The NHL is a "monoply" by vitrue of the fact none of its competitors have achieved the same level of success. The AHL and other leagues can build successes rivaling the NHLs. What stops the AHL achieving parity with the NHL by building 18000 seat arenas and charging $50 a ticket? The AHL is free to sign any off contract player it can. What anticompetitive or predatory practices has the NHL entered into against the AHL/others?

The NHL might have a monopsony with regards to expensive contracts but that is due to its success.

I know you've posted some links to antitrust/monopoly cases that go beyond the layman's versions posted above. Would you post some again.

me2 is offline  
Old
12-19-2004, 05:50 AM
  #10
Epsilon
#TeamHolland
 
Epsilon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Florence, SC
Posts: 38,551
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by me2
Lets assume the NHL is a monopoly or a defacto monopoly, has it violated the lesser competitors rights? The NHL is a "monoply" by vitrue of the fact none of its competitors have achieved the same level of success. The AHL and other leagues can build successes rivaling the NHLs. What stops the AHL achieving parity with the NHL by building 18000 seat arenas and charging $50 a ticket? The AHL is free to sign any off contract player it can. What anticompetitive or predatory practices has the NHL entered into against the AHL/others?

The NHL might have a monopsony with regards to expensive contracts but that is due to its success.

I know you've posted some links to antitrust/monopoly cases that go beyond the layman's versions posted above. Would you post some again.
The answer to that is almost certainly no (otherwise someone would have raised a stink). One common misconception that needs to be cleared up: there is nothing illegal about having a monopoly on anything. It's just that monopolies need to operate a bit more carefully than other businesses lest they run afoul of antitrust laws. There's no need to even debate whether or not the NHL is a monopoly until they commit a Sherman Act violation. If that happens, then it's likely that someone will make the argument in front of a judge. Major league baseball has dealt with these issues twice: when the Federal League folded (which resulted in a lawsuit by one of the teams who claimed that MLB was conspiring with the Federal League owners to shut them out of business - leading to the curious MLB antitrust exemption), and of course the infamous collusion lawsuit which cost the league hundreds of millions of dollars (since this was a CBA violation, it's not a monopoly issue persay, but it's the sort of thing that can come up in these situations).

Epsilon is online now  
Old
12-19-2004, 08:01 AM
  #11
Isles72
Registered User
 
Isles72's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Canada
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,870
vCash: 500
one seems to forget that while the oil barons of Russia might pay the future Russian stars more money than the proposed nhl rookie cap ; their chances of making endorsement money in North America could bridge the gap .I would also tend to believe that playing amongst their peers in the best league in the world as well as a better lifestyle would give sway to the NHL

also , I dont think the nhl will get their own way on all proposals they put forth IF the players agree to a cap .You will see some bending on the 850 k rookie cap suggestion as well as free agency age etc.Maybe set the rookie cap higher for 1st round piks .

Isles72 is offline  
Old
12-19-2004, 09:24 AM
  #12
Toonces
The beer kitty
 
Toonces's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: New Jersey
Country: Ireland
Posts: 3,678
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Iconoclast
Is it just fashionable to attack someone when you don't have an argument to defend the original point? It must be, becaise no one defended the stance that the NHL would miss the Russian players.
Not no one, see my post.

I don't attack anyone personally, ever. I'm simply pointing out that stereotypes are not often true.

I won't speak for everyone else.

Toonces is offline  
Old
12-19-2004, 10:12 AM
  #13
misterjaggers
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: The Duke City
Country: United States
Posts: 14,273
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ola
With the Rosno Cup beeing played in Russia at the moment one thing has become clear. The russians are trying really hard to challenge the NHL...
There's a couple of wealthy Russina oligarch owners who are taking advantage of the lockout, but assuming the NHLPA comes to it's senses and play resumes this season, what traction do they have? They don't even have the buildings. Ak bars' building holds 6000.

misterjaggers is offline  
Old
12-19-2004, 10:17 AM
  #14
A Good Flying Bird*
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Ann Arbor
Country: Canada
Posts: 9,359
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by txomisc
are you forgetting that the NHLPA itself also chose to throw young guys like Ovechkin under the bus?
Yeah, but they had the old promise of long-term money.

Anyway, I think the NHL needs to eliminate entry level contract restrictions if they get their bloody cap.

Seriously. What need to we have for any restrictions if you've got the big restriction keeping you safe.

I think the salary cap, as proposed, will keep lots of young russians out of North America.
I also think you're going to see lots of Russians using RSL contracts as a bargainning tool, like Pavel Datsyuk has done in recent years.

If Bettman get's his cap, don't expect to see Pavel Datsyuk playing in North America this season.
He's an RFA. The Wings will be way over the cap, even without him and even with a 24 percent decrease.
They've got no money to sign him.

A Good Flying Bird* is offline  
Old
12-19-2004, 10:22 AM
  #15
A Good Flying Bird*
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Ann Arbor
Country: Canada
Posts: 9,359
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thunderstruck
Hope he has a good time.

Yes. I hope the Caps are happy they chose him.
I also hope you enjoy watching an NHL with 30 teams and EVEN LESS TALENT

A Good Flying Bird* is offline  
Old
12-19-2004, 10:28 AM
  #16
A Good Flying Bird*
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Ann Arbor
Country: Canada
Posts: 9,359
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Iconoclast
Sure they are. Name one team besides Ak Bars that is spending a huge amount of money and is wooing big name talent with big salaries. You're kidding yourself.

Frankly, I wouldn't be disappointed to see the Russians stay home. While they have an abundance of skill they have a major deficiency in character and don't have the complete game that make them effective in winning championships. It would make the Russian tours that much more special again.

It's not only big talent. It's middle talent and ever lower.
Last year, the wings lost 25 year old defenseman Dmitri Bykov to Russia. The Wings weren't willing to match Bykov's $1 Million, tax free offer.
Granted, it's only one player. But if they've got $1Million to throw at Dmitri Bykov, don't underestimate their ability to compete the NHL for the best of the young Russians limited by $850,000 contracts. Also talented RFAs may be tempted to go back.
Or even third line forwards.

Overall, it does represent a threat to the talent level in the NHL. Whether or not this threat really manifests itself remains to be seen.
But ignoring it would be silly.

If there is a cap, the NHL needs to eliminate this bogus entry level system.
Last thing we need is the WHA starting up, attracting some NHL stars, and then offering $2M a year to Crosby.


This year, a Russian team was trying to woo Pavel Datsyuk, a restricted free agent.

A Good Flying Bird* is offline  
Old
12-19-2004, 10:53 AM
  #17
Blind Gardien
nexus of the crisis
 
Blind Gardien's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Four Winds Bar
Country: France
Posts: 20,552
vCash: 500
I think it's fair enough if the Ovechkins are able to stay in Russia. Why shouldn't the Russian people be able to see their hometown heroes first-hand? Kudos to whichever rich oligarch can afford to pay him at a level comparable to NHL superstars.

I actually like the idea of snapping the NHL's monopoly on global hockey talent. It would help re-ignite some of the international tournaments, especially the World Cup. The best international tourney these days is the World Juniors, and that's because there are (mostly) players who are really from different countries and different systems playing against eachother, as unknowns, but equals. It's not just an NHL (or in this case CHL) all-stars tournament.

Further down the road, if healthy and competitive leagues are icing top-level talent in different leagues in Russia or Europe, it would further my dream of seeing an international club-teams championship, or a pan-world pro league.

Of course, if it comes down to Ovechkin making $3M in Russia or making $2.4M (with bonuses) in Washington, there's still a fair argument for him coming over to play here, since it's his ticket to making $10M a few years down the road. But per the above arguments, here's to hoping that doesn't happen.

Blind Gardien is offline  
Old
12-19-2004, 11:45 AM
  #18
Seachd
Registered User
 
Seachd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: The Fail
Posts: 14,266
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Newsguyone
Yes. I hope the Caps are happy they chose him.
I also hope you enjoy watching an NHL with 30 teams and EVEN LESS TALENT
So why should the NHL have to pay these talentless players so much?

Seachd is offline  
Old
12-19-2004, 02:42 PM
  #19
Foppa_Rules
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Earth...how about you?
Country: United States
Posts: 2,019
vCash: 500
And about Ovechkin, I think you're wrong if you even think Ovechkin would choose to stay in Russia just because of money. All evidence to the contrary.

Foppa_Rules is offline  
Old
12-19-2004, 03:16 PM
  #20
DutchLeafsfan
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Rotterdam, NL
Country: Netherlands
Posts: 4,941
vCash: 500
Send a message via ICQ to DutchLeafsfan Send a message via MSN to DutchLeafsfan
I just deleted more than half of this thread. While most posts made weren't bad, they were steering the thread completely offtopic.

Keep in mind though that ascribing a major deficiency to an entire nation on the one hand, or calling someone a 'klansman' on the other hand are posts which are both way out of line...


Last edited by DutchLeafsfan: 12-19-2004 at 03:34 PM.
DutchLeafsfan is offline  
Old
12-19-2004, 03:33 PM
  #21
Vlad The Impaler
Registered User
 
Vlad The Impaler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Montreal
Posts: 11,731
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by txomisc
are you forgetting that the NHLPA itself also chose to throw young guys like Ovechkin under the bus?
Exactly. The first thing that always takes the hit with that bunch of ****** is the future generations of hockey players.

Personally, I don't like rookie contracts. I don't like the new proposal and I don't like the old proposal either. I think the young guys always take an undeserved hit but that is unfortunately the fault of the NHLPA.

I would love for a guy like Gaborik to make more money for instance. I was disappointed that he ended up getting a contract that pays less than many players who suck hairy balls. But I understand the Wild and the NHL. They have no choice due to the way the players insist business should be conducted.

I'd like a system where contract buyouts are less difficult and a system where qualifying offers don't garantee that just about any lazy ass gets a huge raise. Let's give money to the players who deserve it, whatever their age is.

Vlad The Impaler is offline  
Old
12-19-2004, 04:35 PM
  #22
Ola
Registered User
 
Ola's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Sweden
Country: Sweden
Posts: 18,691
vCash: 500
First of all I think it would hurt the NHL allot if they missed out on future stars. Its not a overstatement that a big part of the reason that I enjoyed watching Atlanta last season was because of Ilya Kovalchuk. Ask longtime fans from Edmonton what super stars can do for a franchise. Maybe these guys aren´t Gretzky fans but Bettman is risking lossing some extremly good players that in the end draws allot of fans to the game. And russia has produced allot of them the last couple of years after some not so good years. Although there doesn´t seem to be one this year I am sure there are many on the horizon...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Foppa_Rules
And about Ovechkin, I think you're wrong if you even think Ovechkin would choose to stay in Russia just because of money. All evidence to the contrary.
I thought the same, a week ago. But the russians are marketing hockey as more then just a game. The Russian Super League is supposed to be the face of the nation. A young, hungry, athletic and powerful nation ect.(I know, its almost sounds funny... ) Powerful politicians are always seen in the stands. There will be allot of patriotic feelings involved if Ovechkin leaves.

Quote:
Originally Posted by misterjaggers
There's a couple of wealthy Russina oligarch owners who are taking advantage of the lockout, but assuming the NHLPA comes to it's senses and play resumes this season, what traction do they have? They don't even have the buildings. Ak bars' building holds 6000.
I am far from a expert on the russian league but AK Bar Kazan is kind of a small market team with allot of money. And these guys are pretty darn rich, Roman Abramovic who is involved in a diffrent club then AK Bar recently spent well over 300 million dollars in transfer fees alone in a little over a year in soccer.

Ola is online now  
Old
12-19-2004, 07:26 PM
  #23
Sinurgy
Embrace Passion
 
Sinurgy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Tempe, AZ
Posts: 8,058
vCash: 500
I really hope the new agreement doesn't mess up getting Russian players. I really like watching a lot of them play and one of the allure's of the NHL is they put the best hockey talent in the WORLD on the ice, not the best hockey talent from SOME parts of the world. Missing out on Kovalchuk and Ovechkin alone are enough to seriously annoy me. They better take care of this because I want the best talent in the world in the NHL and that includes the Russian players!!!!!

Sinurgy is offline  
Old
12-19-2004, 08:01 PM
  #24
Foppa_Rules
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Earth...how about you?
Country: United States
Posts: 2,019
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ola
I thought the same, a week ago. But the russians are marketing hockey as more then just a game. The Russian Super League is supposed to be the face of the nation. A young, hungry, athletic and powerful nation ect.(I know, its almost sounds funny... ) Powerful politicians are always seen in the stands. There will be allot of patriotic feelings involved if Ovechkin leaves.

Which is why I said I did not believe that Ovechkin would leave for JUST money. However I firmly believe, based on what he has said over the years, that Ovechkin will play in the best league available, regardless of what its name is.

Foppa_Rules is offline  
Old
12-19-2004, 08:02 PM
  #25
Foppa_Rules
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Earth...how about you?
Country: United States
Posts: 2,019
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ola
I thought the same, a week ago. But the russians are marketing hockey as more then just a game. The Russian Super League is supposed to be the face of the nation. A young, hungry, athletic and powerful nation ect.(I know, its almost sounds funny... ) Powerful politicians are always seen in the stands. There will be allot of patriotic feelings involved if Ovechkin leaves.

Which is why I said I did not believe that Ovechkin would leave for JUST money. However I firmly believe, based on what he has said over the years, that Ovechkin will play in the best league available, regardless of what its name is, and regardless of whether he makes $2 million or $800,000.

Foppa_Rules is offline  
Closed Thread

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:28 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2015 All Rights Reserved.