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IIHF World Championship Discuss international tournaments such as the World Juniors, Olympic hockey, and Ice Hockey World Championships, as they take place; or discuss past tournaments.

Russians care more for international play

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Old
05-22-2012, 08:19 AM
  #26
Everlasting
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gemini View Post
Come again?

Why on earth should the national team take precedence over winning the most important trophy in hockey?


Representing your entire country > Representing an organisation.

Its one thing to not care about a tournament becuse you have been playing like **** in it for the last 70 years (Yeah, you canada) but even if you dont care about a tournament one should care for your own country. Its not just playing hockey, its an honor.

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05-22-2012, 08:22 AM
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jekoh View Post
They also value international tournaments less than Norwegians do, so your explanation as to why certain people value international tournaments more than others seems stupid.
My explanation is correct, just not the whole truth. Norway is a very small, homogeneous country whileas America is a multiracial society whose inhabitants, rather than sharing a common heritage, share a faith in their country's ideals.

Quote:
The highest prize in hockey is Olympic gold.
And why would it be? This would be the case only if the tournament were longer and had more parity.

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05-22-2012, 08:22 AM
  #28
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Originally Posted by CCCP View Post
He also just won the Art Ross, most likely will win the Hart and Lindsey, and also has won the Cup and the Conn Smythe before.
Malkin had 8 points in 6 games in the playoffs...

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05-22-2012, 08:25 AM
  #29
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Originally Posted by Gemini View Post
And why would it be? This would be the case only if the tournament were longer and had more parity.
The highest trophy is not only what the athletes regard most difficult to win, but what the fans think is the biggest trophy.

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05-22-2012, 08:34 AM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gemini View Post
My explanation is correct, just not the whole truth. Norway is a very small, homogeneous country whileas America is a multiracial society
This is 2012, not 1950. Norway's capital is very much multiracial.

Hold on a bit. Are you saying Americans are less patriotic about sports than Russians, Slovaks, Czechs, Finns and Swedes?

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05-22-2012, 08:43 AM
  #31
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Originally Posted by Gemini View Post
Which is why it's so silly: You want to win for your country, no matter the country, just because it's your country. In fact, there seems to be a negative correlation between a given country's living standards and its inhabitants' national pride, at least when it comes to sports. Of course, this is not all that surprising: When you've got little things to be proud of, silly international competitions are valued disproportionately. So, it's not surprising that Americans value international tournaments (in any sports) less than Russians do. Representing your country is still important to a North American but not as important as winning the highest prize available to an individual athlete (North Americans being more individualistic than Europeans/Asians). This is why it's not so important whose jersey you happen to be wearing when you get to lift the cup. The city is not important in itself; it's merely a tool.

An athlete should always seek the highest prize. In hockey, that prize is the Stanley Cup. Any hockey athlete who wants to win the WHC gold over the Stanley Cup is being irrational.
Who made the film called Miracle?


Who chants "USA USA USA" when the Rangers play Ottawa....

Who is the only country to have published medal tables for the beijing olympics listed by total medals rather than by golds as it was the only way to have the USA at the top....

(I know North America also includes Canada and Mexico whereas my comments only relate to the USA)

Americans are some of the most nationalistic people in the world (not a bad thing necessarily) but to say the athletes and fans don't care about international sports as much as any other country is just silly


...I sense this debate will not go anywhere though...

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05-22-2012, 08:48 AM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jekoh View Post
They also value international tournaments less than Norwegians do, so your explanation as to why certain people value international tournaments more than others seems stupid.


The highest prize in hockey is Olympic gold.
That's debatable.

1 takes 2 weeks

the other takes 9 months.

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05-22-2012, 08:50 AM
  #33
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Originally Posted by Smiddletown View Post

Hold on a bit. Are you saying Americans are less patriotic about sports than Russians, Slovaks, Czechs, Finns and Swedes?
Of course. Americans care far more about local sports.

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05-22-2012, 08:50 AM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robin929 View Post


Representing your entire country > Representing an organisation.

Its one thing to not care about a tournament becuse you have been playing like **** in it for the last 70 years (Yeah, you canada) but even if you dont care about a tournament one should care for your own country. Its not just playing hockey, its an honor.
Exactly, much more of an honour to be selected as the best in your nation than just to be paid to play for one of many teams in the NHL

Obviously an olympic roster is more prestigious than a WHC roster, but anytime a player gets to represent his country it is something special

At the core isn't so much "nations" but regional identity...thats why it is much more special when a player wins the stanley cup after a long career with one team, because they have a special relationship with that area/culture etc etc

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05-22-2012, 08:51 AM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gemini View Post
My explanation is correct, just not the whole truth. Norway is a very small, homogeneous country whileas America is a multiracial society whose inhabitants, rather than sharing a common heritage, share a faith in their country's ideals.
Your knowledge of Norway is obviously top notch but the bolded part is very much like France. You are aware that France is also very much into international tournaments, right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gemini View Post
And why would it be?
It's certainly bigger than a mere national competition like the NHL.

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05-22-2012, 08:54 AM
  #36
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Originally Posted by Hightide85 View Post
That's debatable.

1 takes 2 weeks

the other takes 9 months.
And? There is a lot more room for error in a 9-month tournament.

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05-22-2012, 08:58 AM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hightide85 View Post
That's debatable.

1 takes 2 weeks

the other takes 9 months.
Then one might argue that NHL > KHL > Olympics. W00t.

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05-22-2012, 09:03 AM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jekoh View Post
And? There is a lot more room for error in a 9-month tournament.
It's the complete opposite actually. See the law of large numbers.

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05-22-2012, 09:05 AM
  #39
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Then one might argue that NHL > KHL > Olympics. W00t.
And be 100% wrong.

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05-22-2012, 09:09 AM
  #40
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Originally Posted by Sokil View Post
Crosby didn't play all that passionately in the playoffs and then bailed on Team Canada for the WCs, so what's that say about passion?


Nothing. This micro analysis is stupid.
Not a fan of Crosby at all, but can't fault him for not going this year with his concussion problems.

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05-22-2012, 09:11 AM
  #41
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Originally Posted by jekoh View Post
Your knowledge of Norway is obviously top notch but the bolded part is very much like France. You are aware that France is also very much into international tournaments, right?


It's certainly bigger than a mere national competition like the NHL.
Wrong.

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05-22-2012, 09:12 AM
  #42
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Originally Posted by Gemini View Post
Of course. Americans care far more about local sports.
And European soccer fans care far more about the local team than the national team. That wasn't the question.

The question was; are you saying Americans care less about international competitions than Swedes/Russians/Slovaks care about the same?
From what I can see, American fans bring flags and chant as much as anyone else during international venues. Which is not a negative thing at all, which you seem to think.

I happen to think this is a cool picture. Go USA, nothing wrong with that.


Last edited by Smiddletown: 05-22-2012 at 09:27 AM.
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05-22-2012, 09:19 AM
  #43
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IMO, Americans care about international play as much as Europeans, thus the chant: "U-S-A, U-S-A..." even at NHL games, only Canadians care about the Cup more.

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05-22-2012, 09:19 AM
  #44
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I think for many Canadians the 72 Summit was/is the most memorable event in hockey, over any SCF, correct me if I'm wrong

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05-22-2012, 09:24 AM
  #45
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Cant belive there are people in this world who its greater to represent an organisation then to represent your own country. Sounds so... capitalistic. (if thats a word )

I also find the fact that people compare international and clubs funny. Only in hockey and NA.

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05-22-2012, 09:31 AM
  #46
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Originally Posted by Robin929 View Post
Cant belive there are people in this world who its greater to represent an organisation then to represent your own country. Sounds so... capitalistic. (if thats a word )

I also find the fact that people compare international and clubs. Only in hockey and NA.
A lot more time and effort goes into winning a Stanley Cup than any International event and that is what makes it more important to a lot of people.

You think NBA players care more about an Olympic gold medal than an NBA title? They don't and its not even close. The goal of a MLB baseball player is to win the World Series, not the World Baseball Classic.

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05-22-2012, 09:50 AM
  #47
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Originally Posted by 2287 View Post
A lot more time and effort goes into winning a Stanley Cup than any International event and that is what makes it more important to a lot of people.

You think NBA players care more about an Olympic gold medal than an NBA title? They don't and its not even close. The goal of a MLB baseball player is to win the World Series, not the World Baseball Classic.
I don't think you can place one above the other, it's very special to win the SC, and it's very special to win say the olympics and for europeans, even the WCH.

How do you compare the fan-base of say someone like Los Angles kings against the fan-base of the whole canada or russia cheering for their olympic team. It's a very different thing, we can argue back and forth, you can even make a case that one takes more effort than the other, but at the end of the day, it's a different competition.

Also, please note that playing for the NT is more about pride and honor, while playing for the club is more about personal goals and success(and money).You don't get paid to play for the national team(well mostly, i do know they give you something to compensate for the expenses or when you reach a certain goal - but it's not an employment), you don't get traded away from the national team to your former arch enemy, you don't lose your national team to a different city and ownership thousands of miles away(in a different country).

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05-22-2012, 09:52 AM
  #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smiddletown View Post

The question was; are you saying Americans care less about international competitions than Swedes/Russians/Slovaks care about the same?
From what I can see, American fans bring flags and chant as much as anyone else during international venues. Which is not a negative thing at all, which you seem to think.
As I already said, yes. A thousand flag-waving Americans is gonna do nothing to prove otherwise: I never said or even implied that no American cares about international tournaments. That'd have been silly. International tournaments may be noted (sometimes not even that) but they get far less exposure than in European countries - on average (which I shouldn't even have to say but someone is gonna come up with an exception anyway and parade it as some kind of evidence).

And of course the OT was talking about Russian players, not spectators. Of course a Russian or a Finnish spectator is gonna care more about the WHC gold than the Stanley Cup but even he should recognize that the Stanley Cup is and should be more important to the players.

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05-22-2012, 09:59 AM
  #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gemini View Post
Representing your country is still important to a North American but not as important as winning the highest prize available to an individual athlete (North Americans being more individualistic than Europeans/Asians)..
btw, this sounds a bid counter intuitive, since Russian players in the NHL always get bashed for not having heart and only caring about themselves and individual scoring awards rather than the team

Similarly, many are often accused of "only playing for the money" (leaving for the KHL etc) which would mean they shouldn't care about the international tournaments at all

Rather they should just care about doing well for the team that pays them the money and where their individual success and their team success (winning the stanley cup) will reward them financially


food for thought...

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05-22-2012, 10:00 AM
  #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hightide85 View Post
That's debatable.

1 takes 2 weeks

the other takes 9 months.
As someone has said, there is a lot of room for mistakes. Not just that. Long season is boring, it's just about running up the revenues. Once a team is safe for playoffs no-one cares for regular season. Or without checking a wiki, name winners of President Trophy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trovatore View Post
Then one might argue that NHL > KHL > Olympics. W00t.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sentinel View Post
And be 100% wrong.
Why? Using same logic he's 100% right.

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