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Goulet vs. Nicholls

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11-15-2004, 12:15 AM
  #1
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Goulet vs. Nicholls

I'd like to see the argument for goulet being in the hall, but not nicholls. pumper had 1.5 seasons with gretz. michel played alongside staz for nearly a decade, including one with burnaby joe. nicholls posted better postseason totals. nicholls was still a pt./gm. player at 35; michel was no longer a pt./gm. player past age 28 and was out of the nhl by 34. both averaged over 1 pt. per game for their careers, and both reached 1,000 pts. neither has a cup. goulet is in. by association, shouldn't nicholls?help me out here.

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11-15-2004, 05:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by silver_made
I'd like to see the argument for goulet being in the hall, but not nicholls. pumper had 1.5 seasons with gretz. michel played alongside staz for nearly a decade, including one with burnaby joe. nicholls posted better postseason totals. nicholls was still a pt./gm. player at 35; michel was no longer a pt./gm. player past age 28 and was out of the nhl by 34. both averaged over 1 pt. per game for their careers, and both reached 1,000 pts. neither has a cup. goulet is in. by association, shouldn't nicholls?help me out here.
1. Goulet cleared 500 goals, Nicholls did not. Critical number in HHOF determination ... like 300 wins in baseball, 500 goals has been the next thing to an automatic berth. Ciccarelli is the only eligible guy not in, and he'll get there eventually.

2. Goulet was dominant in the 1984 Canada Cup, and very good in the 1987 tourney. Nicholls was not named to either team.

3. Goulet is one of only 9 players ever to record four consecutive 50-goal seasons. Nicholls only cleared 50 goals once.

4. Most importantly, you can make a damn good argument Goulet was the best player at his position for about a 6-year stretch in the mid-1980s. First-team or second-team all-star every year between 1983 and 1988. Set the LW scoring record with 121 points. 5 postseason all-star berths to Nicholls' zero.

That said, I think Nicholls will probably get in eventually. But IMO Goulet clearly has better HHOF credentials.

Also, Goulet was only 'out of the NHL by 34' because he suffered a career-ending concussion. He was still a productive player when he was hurt, and would have lasted another couple years in all likelihood.

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11-15-2004, 08:23 AM
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Originally Posted by MS
1. Goulet cleared 500 goals, Nicholls did not. Critical number in HHOF determination ... like 300 wins in baseball, 500 goals has been the next thing to an automatic berth. Ciccarelli is the only eligible guy not in, and he'll get there eventually.

2. Goulet was dominant in the 1984 Canada Cup, and very good in the 1987 tourney. Nicholls was not named to either team.

3. Goulet is one of only 9 players ever to record four consecutive 50-goal seasons. Nicholls only cleared 50 goals once.

4. Most importantly, you can make a damn good argument Goulet was the best player at his position for about a 6-year stretch in the mid-1980s. First-team or second-team all-star every year between 1983 and 1988. Set the LW scoring record with 121 points. 5 postseason all-star berths to Nicholls' zero.

That said, I think Nicholls will probably get in eventually. But IMO Goulet clearly has better HHOF credentials.

Also, Goulet was only 'out of the NHL by 34' because he suffered a career-ending concussion. He was still a productive player when he was hurt, and would have lasted another couple years in all likelihood.
is it coincidental that goulet's glory years came alongside stasny, yet, once out of quebec, he wasn't even close to the offensive juggernaut that he was as a nordique? hence, could his greatness be heavily credited to peter?

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11-15-2004, 10:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by silver_made
is it coincidental that goulet's glory years came alongside stasny, yet, once out of quebec, he wasn't even close to the offensive juggernaut that he was as a nordique? hence, could his greatness be heavily credited to peter?
Of course, Stastny's numbers went downhill, too, after he and Goulet went their separate ways, so you could also make that argument in the opposite direction.

MS's second point is probably the most convincing. Goulet was selected to two Canada Cup teams (as well as Rendez-vous 87) and performed well on them; Nicholls was never picked for a "best of the best" team like those.

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11-15-2004, 11:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Lard_Lad
Of course, Stastny's numbers went downhill, too, after he and Goulet went their separate ways, so you could also make that argument in the opposite direction.

MS's second point is probably the most convincing. Goulet was selected to two Canada Cup teams (as well as Rendez-vous 87) and performed well on them; Nicholls was never picked for a "best of the best" team like those.
seems the debate has narrowed to inclusion/exclusion from the canada cup. nicholls wa a center, no? um, seems there was much stiffer competition down the middle than on the left side at the time; am i wrong? francis, gretz, yzerman and messier (4 of the nhl's top 10 scorers in league history) were also prime canadian pivots at that time; you'd fault him for this? who the hell could crack those 4?

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11-15-2004, 11:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lard_Lad
Of course, Stastny's numbers went downhill, too, after he and Goulet went their separate ways, so you could also make that argument in the opposite direction.

MS's second point is probably the most convincing. Goulet was selected to two Canada Cup teams (as well as Rendez-vous 87) and performed well on them; Nicholls was never picked for a "best of the best" team like those.
Very true. Both were great players that thrived off of each other. Kind of like the Savard / Larmer of the Wales. The thing that people forget about Goulet is that he was a pretty hard nosed player. He was good along the boards and also came back to help out on D. Another thing that might have caused his dip in production was a heart condition. I'm not sure of any details but it came around 1990 and he was still around a pt a game guy, just a little more assist heavy.

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11-15-2004, 01:01 PM
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Respectfully,and a Nordique fan can correct me,I believe Goulet played most of his hockey on Dale Hunter's left. Peter S. played with his brother Anton, and a few years with Marian.
Gouley and Hunter were a duo with the 3rd winger changing, whether it was McKegney,Ashton, Cloutier or whoever. I'm sure they had alot of PP time together but not that much 5 on 5. It made Quebec a tough team to line match with.

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11-15-2004, 08:36 PM
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Originally Posted by silver_made
seems the debate has narrowed to inclusion/exclusion from the canada cup. nicholls wa a center, no? um, seems there was much stiffer competition down the middle than on the left side at the time; am i wrong? francis, gretz, yzerman and messier (4 of the nhl's top 10 scorers in league history) were also prime canadian pivots at that time; you'd fault him for this? who the hell could crack those 4?
no response?

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11-16-2004, 06:48 AM
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Originally Posted by silver_made
no response?
To me, Goulet was a complete player. Great scoreer,speed ,2 way guy, clutch scorer, the whole package. I thought he went quickly from 1st tier star to second tier but for a period he was either the best or among the best at his position. My perception of Nicholls was that he was a scorer, pure and simple, maybe better than the Maruk's of the league but others could be put into his situation and succeed. Keep in mind that that's just perception and you don't put those numbers up unless you're a gifted offensive player. If I'm drafting a team though, I'd take Goulet well ahead of Nicholls. If I was drafting a ball team, I'd take Nicholls, I remember seeing him in a slo-pitch tournament, he and Stephane Richer were tremendous hitters.

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11-16-2004, 09:05 AM
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Just to add a little more, I think that Goulet had more high end years and was more consistent. Like mcphee said he put up great numbers while also being a good two way player. As for the Canada cup debate, I think that the Canada team was overstocked at center and used some as wingers. So if Nicholls was good enough to make the team he would have made it as a forward without being a center.

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11-16-2004, 06:30 PM
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Nicholls isnt even mentioned in the same breath as Goulet. To me it comes down to all of the all-star berths Goulet had. Nicholls never once had a first or second all star berth. He hit 150 points and then never came in the same universe as that before or after. He was good, but to me he reminds me of guys like Ciccarrelli, Andreychuk, Gilmour who will just get into the HOF by their point total and that's it. For Andreychuk its just pure longevity cause there's no way he's a Hall of Famer. Same with Nicholls. He never put the fear of God into anyone when he stepped on the ice. I'm sorry but he was never a top 10 or even top 20 player in the league at any time. Goulet for sure was.

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11-16-2004, 07:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by silver_made
seems the debate has narrowed to inclusion/exclusion from the canada cup. nicholls wa a center, no? um, seems there was much stiffer competition down the middle than on the left side at the time; am i wrong? francis, gretz, yzerman and messier (4 of the nhl's top 10 scorers in league history) were also prime canadian pivots at that time; you'd fault him for this? who the hell could crack those 4?
Like #66 said, Nicholls could have been used on the wing, or one of the other guys could have been moved over to make room for him at centre. But it didn't happen.

And I just said the national teams were the best argument, not the only one - the argument didn't "narrow" at all.

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11-16-2004, 08:36 PM
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As said above, I don't think that many who saw these guys in their prime would even venture to compare their careers. Goulet was the best at his position for a considerable period, I don't think you'd find many people that would even consider Nicholls HHOF worthy for more than 2 seconds. Off topic, but Bernie is one of my least favorite Oilers of all time.

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11-16-2004, 11:25 PM
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Here are Brian Nicholls and Michel Goulet's goals and points as well as goals and points per game in their first 10 seasons and other interesting comparisons.

Bernie Nicholls:

22 games: 14 goals, 32 points= 0.63 gpg, 1.45 ppg
71 games, 28 goals, 50 points, 0.39 gpg, 0.70 ppg
78 games, 41 goals, 95 points= 0.52 gpg, 1.21 ppg
80 games, 46 goals, 100 points= 0.57 gpg, 1.25 ppg
80 games, 36 goals, 97 points= 0.45 gpg, 1.19 ppg
80 games, 33 goals, 81 points= 0.41 gpg, 1.01 ppg
65 games, 32 goals, 78 points= 0.49 gpg, 1.20 ppg
79 games, 70 goals, 150 points= 0.88 gpg, 1.89 ppg
47 games, 27 goals, 75 points= 0.57 gpg, 1.59 ppg
32 games, 12 goals, 37 points= 0.37 gpg, 1.15 ppg

Career totals: 1127 games, 475 goals, 734 assists, 1209 points= 0.42 gpg, 1.07 ppg


Michel Goulet:

77 games, 22 goals, 54 points= 0.28 gpg, 0.70 ppg
76 games, 32 goals, 71 points= 0.42 gpg, 0.92 ppg
80 games, 42 goals, 84 points= 0.52 gpg, 1.05 ppg
80 games, 57 goals, 105 points= 0.71 gpg, 1.31 ppg
75 games, 56 goals, 121 points 0.75 gpg, 1.61 ppg
69 games, 55 goals, 95 points= 0.79 gpg, 1.37 ppg
75 games, 53 goals, 104 points= 0.70 gpg, 1.38 ppg
75 games, 49 goals, 96 points= 0.65 gpg, 1.28 ppg
80 games, 48 goals, 106 points= 0.60 gpg, 1.32 ppg
69 games, 26 goals, 64 points= 0.37 gpg, 0.92 ppg

Career totals: 1089 games, 548 goals, 1152 points= 0.50 gpg 1.05 ppg

Michel Goulet

5 Best seasons: GPG Wise:

69 games, 55 goals, 95 points= 0.79 gpg, 1.37 ppg
75 games, 56 goals, 121 points 0.75 gpg, 1.61 ppg
80 games, 57 goals, 105 points= 0.71 gpg, 1.31 ppg
75 games, 53 goals, 104 points= 0.70 gpg, 1.38 ppg
75 games, 49 goals, 96 points= 0.65 gpg, 1.28 ppg

5 Best seasons: PPG Wise:

75 games, 56 goals, 121 points 0.75 gpg, 1.61 ppg
75 games, 53 goals, 104 points= 0.70 gpg, 1.38 ppg
69 games, 55 goals, 95 points= 0.79 gpg, 1.37 ppg
80 games, 48 goals, 106 points= 0.60 gpg, 1.32 ppg
75 games, 49 goals, 96 points= 0.65 gpg, 1.28 ppg




Bernie Nicholls:

5 Best Seasons: Goals per game wise:

79 games, 70 goals, 150 points= 0.88 gpg
22 games: 14 goals, 32 points= 0.63 gpg
80 games, 46 goals, 100 points= 0.57 gpg
78 games, 41 goals, 95 points= 0.52 gpg
47 games, 27 goals, 75 points= 0.57 gpg

5 best seasons: Points per game wise:

79 games, 70 goals, 150 points= 0.88 gpg, 1.89 ppg
47 games, 27 goals, 75 points= 0.57 gpg, 1.59 ppg
22 games: 14 goals, 32 points= 0.63 gpg, 1.45 ppg
80 games, 46 goals, 100 points= 0.57 gpg, 1.25 ppg
78 games, 41 goals, 95 points= 0.52 gpg, 1.21 ppg

Highest GPG:

Goulet: 0.79
Nicholls: 0.88

Highest PPG:

Goulet: 1.61
Nicholls:1.89

50 + Goal Seasons:

Goulet: 4
Nicholls: 1

All Star team Selections:

Goulet: 6
Nicholls: 0


Oh and don't be fooled by Bernie's career high PPG and GPG averages as it was both from the same year when he was playing alongside Gretzky. Also Nicholls has had more then half his gpg average superior to 0.50 when he either played like half a season or when he played with Gretzky. To conclude, in my opinion, both men were great players, both were about the same when it came to points but goal scoring wise even a 2 year old would realise that they werent even in the same league! Goulet could outscore Nicholls anyday anytime. However, even though Nicholls wasnt as great a player as Goulet, that doesnt mean he shouldnt nor does it mean he wont be inducted in the hockey hall of fame.

Now personally, I would say Goulet was better as I was a habs fan and there was nothing wilder then the civil war between the Canadiens and the Nordique and after Stazny, Goulet was the most threathening player in his team in the 80-s. Also as some others mentioned Goulet participated in Canada cups unlike Bernie.

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11-17-2004, 05:23 AM
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Wasn't Nicholls subbed in an All Star game and traded during the break?

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11-25-2004, 11:20 PM
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Goulet

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12-22-2004, 12:09 AM
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he was traded to the rangers during the all star break. but i can't remember him not playing the game

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