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Old
05-24-2012, 04:43 PM
  #101
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Originally Posted by Zetterberg4Captain View Post
i dont think anyone can really argue that zherdev isnt more skilled then player X or player Y, i think, that for alot of other posters their is simply more to what they want and/or hope holland brings in this summer then just a skill set that matches well with datsyuk.

i am not sure where the obession comes from that a player has to match datsyuk as to me, its more important that the player matches the detroit red wings regardless of what people believe datsyuk thinks/wants/covets.

personally i woudl much rather the team add prust, penner and stoll then 3 zherdev's all for the same money

again thats just me
So what are the lines?
None of those guys seem like they would work with Datysuk.
I'm all for those guys for a third line.

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05-24-2012, 04:43 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
random garbage
It's amusing how you focus on nitpicking whatever small stuff you can, so as to distract people from the fact that you completely ignore the main arguments levied against you. Mr. GentlemanMasher has the right of it: you're simply too stubborn to admit to any fault, and you'll go to great lengths to avoid doing so. You declared Zherdev a great fit, and now you're expending a lot of effort to deny that this might not be the case in any fashion.

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And that's why I consider a guy like Zherdev while you foolishly spout about things you know nothing about.
ROFL. What is it I'm discussing that I know nothing about?

By the way, you still haven't addressed how the public testimonies of Laviolette and Hitchcock on Zherdev qualify as "third-party crap."

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Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
I disagree. Ken Hitchcock has crapped on more than Zherdev in his career.
Hitchcock had especially vicious things to say about Zherdev. So did Laviolette, who disliked Zherdev so much that the organization waived the latter. Continue ignoring all of this if you'd like.

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Zherdev was among Cbus's leading scorers and he was the Rangers' leading scorer.

I suppose that points to his TERRIBLE work ethic and TERRIBLE defense and TERRIBLE Attitude.
He was good in Columbus at times but caused a lot of problems. As I have noted, the ability to put up points is not everything. As for the Rangers, have you ever considered why they were unwilling to pay him $4m despite him having been their leading scorer in the regular season?

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THe bottom line is Datsyuk needs to play with a guy who is patient enough to make plays. I'm not even sure a guy like Parise, with his motor, is the right fit for Datsyuk. We KNOW that Franzen isn't.
But you KNOW Zherdev is? LOL!!!


Last edited by Crymson: 05-24-2012 at 05:10 PM.
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05-24-2012, 04:50 PM
  #103
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My only real issue with guys like Radulov and Zherdev is that I don't know if they really care about playing in the NHL. I think that's an issue. I think it's different when a guy like Jagr or Fedorov leave because they want to continue to get paid while being a focal point. I think for a guy like Hudler, he realizes he may have made a mistake (my opinion) and wanted to come back. Zherdev and Radulov? I think it's more selfish than anything else and there's nothing wrong with that.

Zherdev would be a massive upgrade on some players, so if he's motivated, I'm all for it.
I think anyone who leaves their home to go play in the NHL is doing it for selfish reasons.

Wanting to win the Cup is a selfish motivation.
Selfish isn't necessarily a bad thing.

From what I've read, guys get promised the world, go back home to Russia, but they realize it's not the NHL. It doesn't live up to the promises.

It will be interesting to see what happens as the KHL expands into other countries.

Big Bad Radulov seems really stupid to me.
With Zherdev, he didn't stay out all night partying. He kept to himself that was his "sin" in Philly. He didn't always buy into what Hitchcock demanded in Cbus.

But I'm trying to think of how much worse defensively he could be than Bert or Hudler or Franzen, when Franzen is in float mode. I don't see it being worse. And I think his skill level is better than all 3 of those guys (though I'd give Franzen the edge as a shooter).

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05-24-2012, 05:13 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by Crymson View Post
It's amusing how you focus on nitpicking whatever small stuff you can, so as to distract people from the fact that you completely ignore the main arguments levied against you. Mr. GentlemanMasher has the right of it: you're simply too stubborn to admit to any fault, and you'll go to great lengths to avoid doing so. You declared Zherdev a great fit, and now you're expending a lot of effort to deny that this might not be the case in any fashion.



ROFL. What is it I'm discussing that I know nothing about?

By the way, you still haven't addressed how the public testimonies of Laviolette and Hitchcock on Zherdev qualify as "third-party crap."
You have quotes that say he was "TERRIBLE" defensively or work ethic wise?
You have quotes that call him a "CANCER."

I recognize Zherdev isn't an allaround player. The Wings have only 2-3 forwards who can say that.
But Zherdev's skill can help a team like Detroit.
If a guy with his skill and his flaws costs $2M, I'm willing to take that risk.

With this team, you must address your Winger for Datsyuk.
I've been saying this for a couple seasons, since Hossa left.

Now, finally, Babcock is saying the same thing.
There's no guarantee Parise will hit the market or sign here. Same with Semin.

So Zherdev is another idea the kind of low-risk, high-reward move that could payoff immensely.

I've seen people suggest Penner and Prust and Rolston and Langenbrunner as Datsyuk's winger.

Datsyuk works best with guys who can POSSESS the puck.
The Wings WIN when their top lines POSSESS the puck.

Zetterberg-Flip-Hudler were the best line in the second half of the season because they POSSESSED the puck.

You want to load up Datsyuk with wingers that gain the blueline with possession, can't pass, or cough it up when someone waves their stick... get ready for another early exit.

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05-24-2012, 05:15 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by Crymson View Post

But you KNOW Zherdev is? LOL!!!
I think he can be, given what I've seen from Datsyuk and what I've seen of Zherdev.

We know Franzen works best with Zetterberg.

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05-24-2012, 05:19 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
He kept to himself — that was his "sin" in Philly.
Umm... no. His sins with the Flyers included not giving consistent effort in games, not giving consistent effort in practices, not at all changing his ways when he was made a healthy scratch, and refusing to be a responsible team player.

Who is it now who is going on about things he knows nothing about?

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But I'm trying to think of how much worse defensively he could be than Bert or Hudler or Franzen, when Franzen is in float mode. I don't see it being worse. And I think his skill level is better than all 3 of those guys (though I'd give Franzen the edge as a shooter).
Hudler and Bert have troubles defensively because they are simply not very good at playing defense (you have a ridiculous negative fixation on Franzen, so I won't address your comments about him). Zherdev has troubles defensively because he is both poor at playing defense and too lazy to care about it.

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Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
I think he can be, given what I've seen from Datsyuk and what I've seen of Zherdev.
Ah, so you have video of them playing together in the NHL? Or anywhere at all, for that matter? Show me, please. What says that they would be an especially good fit? Your argument that Datsyuk would play better with Zherdev than with other players seems centered exclusively around the fact that they're both Russian. That is completely asinine.

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05-24-2012, 05:35 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post

2. semin -- Truly not much better than Zherdev. For 3 or 4 times the cost
Yeah, I'm not buying that. Semin has 3 30+ goal seasons and 3 70+ pt seasons. Zherdev has how many? Zero. If you take Semins total NHL games and goals scored, and figure his goals per game, then extrapolate that over 82 games, he averages about 35 goals a game over an 82 game season. That's pretty impressive. There is a pretty good gap between what he brings to the table when he is engaged, and what Zherdev brings. Semin could come to detroit and put up 35-35 a year or better, and he publically stated he wants to test free agency. I don't know why're even talking about Zherdev. It's not like we don't have plenty of cap room, and we have to seek out bargain deals.

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05-24-2012, 06:20 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by gowings4013 View Post
Yeah, I'm not buying that. Semin has 3 30+ goal seasons and 3 70+ pt seasons. Zherdev has how many? Zero. If you take Semins total NHL games and goals scored, and figure his goals per game, then extrapolate that over 82 games, he averages about 35 goals a game over an 82 game season. That's pretty impressive. There is a pretty good gap between what he brings to the table when he is engaged, and what Zherdev brings. Semin could come to detroit and put up 35-35 a year or better, and he publically stated he wants to test free agency. I don't know why're even talking about Zherdev. It's not like we don't have plenty of cap room, and we have to seek out bargain deals.
Look at Semin's stats this year, when his coach demanded a tough defensive system, a la Hitchcock. Again, just to put them side-by-side:

STATS & Stuff | Alexander Semin | Nikolai Zherdev
career stats| 496 197-211-408 | 421-115-146 261
Best Season | 73- 40-44-84 | 82-26-35-61
Last Full Season| 77 21-33-54 | 82 23-35-58
Physical Stats | Age 28, 6'2 208 | Age 27 6'2 197

There is clearly a difference. But my suspicion is that Semin is overrated and Zherdev is underrated.
Both come with flaws - work ethic, defense or whatever
But one will cost $6M or more, possibly.
The other, if available, might come in under $2M.

So to maximize your roster, which would you choose?
Choose Zherdev, who might be a great fit, and you've got maybe $4 or $5M more to spend on Suter/Parise whoever.

I've already cap geeked the kind of lines you could have

Show me lines that would beat the lines I posted.

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05-24-2012, 06:25 PM
  #109
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WHy does nationality have anything to do with it? The guy has proven to be a bum on every team he's played for. Pass.

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05-24-2012, 06:29 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by Crymson View Post
Umm... no. His sins with the Flyers included not giving consistent effort in games, not giving consistent effort in practices, not at all changing his ways when he was made a healthy scratch, and refusing to be a responsible team player.
I've read that he didn't fit in with the team. That people thought he was weird for taking a taxi to the arena instead of driving with teammates, yada yada.
He was put on line 3 from the start and rarely given a chance.
When ever he's played top 6 minutes he's produced. Go figure.

Quote:
Who is it now who is going on about things he knows nothing about?
That would be you, still.


Quote:
Hudler and Bert have troubles defensively because they are simply not very good at playing defense (you have a ridiculous negative fixation on Franzen, so I won't address your comments about him).
Hudler is slow, that hurts him. But he's also not very careful defensively. Bertuzzi just follows the wrong guys around his own zone. Franzen, too often, lets his point man get away from him.

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Zherdev has troubles defensively because he is both poor at playing defense and too lazy to care about it.
Ah. For every one the Wings, it's because they simply aren't good? But for the guy you don't like, it's because he's not good and because he's lazy.

My guess is that Zherdev is a bit lazy. But playing next to Pavel, his negative impact would be minimized.
In fact, when Datsyuk and Zherdev are doing their thing, the best defense is a good offense.

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Ah, so you have video of them playing together in the NHL? Or anywhere at all, for that matter? Show me, please. What says that they would be an especially good fit? Your argument that Datsyuk would play better with Zherdev than with other players seems centered exclusively around the fact that they're both Russian. That is completely asinine.
Why are you making things up Cry?
At the deadline, I wanted Hemsky here until he signed with EDM. I'm of the opinion that there are two types of players that fit with Datsyuk.
Pure snipers who can find the open ice.
And guys who can cycle with Datsyuk and make plays.

I've seen enough of Zherdev to know he can do that.
Bertuzzi coughs the puck up too much. Franzen is a terrible passer in the offensive zone, if he bothers to pass at all

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05-24-2012, 06:29 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by ZetterBurger View Post
WHy does nationality have anything to do with it? The guy has proven to be a bum on every team he's played for. Pass.
Led the Rangers in scoring.
Typically right behind Nash in scoring in CBUS

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05-24-2012, 06:33 PM
  #112
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Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
Look at Semin's stats this year, when his coach demanded a tough defensive system, a la Hitchcock. Again, just to put them side-by-side:

STATS & Stuff | Alexander Semin | Nikolai Zherdev
career stats| 496 197-211-408 | 421-115-146 261
Best Season | 73- 40-44-84 | 82-26-35-61
Last Full Season| 77 21-33-54 | 82 23-35-58
Physical Stats | Age 28, 6'2 208 | Age 27 6'2 197

There is clearly a difference. But my suspicion is that Semin is overrated and Zherdev is underrated.
Both come with flaws - work ethic, defense or whatever
But one will cost $6M or more, possibly.
The other, if available, might come in under $2M.

So to maximize your roster, which would you choose?
I want the guy who has seasons where he scored 40 goals in 73 games, 34 goals in 62 games, and 38 goals in 77 games. I want a goal scorer. I think you are underrating Semin. He has the skill to play a possession game, and he has a much better shot than Zherdev. I would say he has a better shot than anyone currently on the Wings, even Franzen. Last season his production was down, but so was everybody on the Caps. His stats could go right back up to past seasons with a change of scenery, and playing with a player like Datsyuk, whom he looked good with during the world championships. I'm not as concerned with budget as you are, you go after the guys you want, and if you end up over the cap you do what you have to to get under the cap. We have guys we can dump, trade, whatever to clear cap room, that shouldn't deter us from going after the top players on the market.

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05-24-2012, 06:39 PM
  #113
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Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
Led the Rangers in scoring.
Typically right behind Nash in scoring in CBUS
He never actually led the Rags in scoring, and the year you are referring to he had 58 points. Not really that impressive. It was also 4 years ago. Pass.

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05-24-2012, 06:40 PM
  #114
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Originally Posted by gowings4013 View Post
I want the guy who has seasons where he scored 40 goals in 73 games, 34 goals in 62 games, and 38 goals in 77 games. I want a goal scorer. I think you are underrating Semin. He has the skill to play a possession game, and he has a much better shot than Zherdev. I would say he has a better shot than anyone currently on the Wings, even Franzen. Last season his production was down, but so was everybody on the Caps. His stats could go right back up to past seasons with a change of scenery, and playing with a player like Datsyuk, whom he looked good with during the world championships. I'm not as concerned with budget as you are, you go after the guys you want, and if you end up over the cap you do what you have to to get under the cap. We have guys we can dump, trade, whatever to clear cap room, that shouldn't deter us from going after the top players on the market.
IMO, the only way Semin gets to 40 goals with the Wings is if the Wings abandon defense.
I think he could easily hit 30 with Datsyuk.

Here's the thing though. I want Semin over Zherdev. But go back to the original post.
Would you rather have Semin? Or Zherdev and Parise?

My plan isn't to make Zherdev the cornerstone my offseason plan. But if Z was available, you could target Parise and Suter and a third line center or winger, and then still Zherdev ---

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05-24-2012, 07:07 PM
  #115
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Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
IMO, the only way Semin gets to 40 goals with the Wings is if the Wings abandon defense.
I think he could easily hit 30 with Datsyuk.

Here's the thing though. I want Semin over Zherdev. But go back to the original post.
Would you rather have Semin? Or Zherdev and Parise?

My plan isn't to make Zherdev the cornerstone my offseason plan. But if Z was available, you could target Parise and Suter and a third line center or winger, and then still Zherdev ---
could we just target parise and suter and a 3rd line centre and then a guy like Prust?

can we please stop being such panzies, please...

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05-24-2012, 07:17 PM
  #116
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Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
IMO, the only way Semin gets to 40 goals with the Wings is if the Wings abandon defense.
I think he could easily hit 30 with Datsyuk.

Here's the thing though. I want Semin over Zherdev. But go back to the original post.
Would you rather have Semin? Or Zherdev and Parise?

My plan isn't to make Zherdev the cornerstone my offseason plan. But if Z was available, you could target Parise and Suter and a third line center or winger, and then still Zherdev ---
I see what you are saying. To me, I would take Semin as a back-up plan for Parise. And I would stay clear of Zherdev altogether.

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05-24-2012, 08:01 PM
  #117
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Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
random garbage
Arguing this with you is a waste of time. You made the original statement that Zherdev would be a good fit, and you're too stubborn to admit that he may have the issues that others have brought up, and so you'll say anything, however ludicrous, to support your original claim.

What's especially funny is that you're basing all your entire argument of his fittingness for the team on the ludicrous claims that:

A) He's Russian and so would somehow, by default, work well with Datsyuk.

B) He's willing to leave the KHL this offseason and accept the completely arbitrary salary number that you came up with.

Both claims are totally arbitrary.


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05-24-2012, 08:22 PM
  #118
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Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post

And that's why I consider a guy like Zherdev while you foolishly spout about things you know nothing about.
Bob, I know people like you go to the grave believing you're rational, logical, intelligent and level headed among all the crackpot shriekers, but you're not. You're as irrational as anyone sometimes. You're reaching and stretching because as usual you made a careless thoughtless response and got called out, so the more you back it up the worse you look.

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05-24-2012, 08:36 PM
  #119
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Originally Posted by Crymson View Post
Arguing this with you is a waste of time. You made the original statement that Zherdev would be a good fit, and you're too stubborn to admit that he may have the issues that others have brought up, and so you'll say anything, however ludicrous, to support your original claim
My original post
Quote:
The Wings want a winger for Datsyuk. They want a Russian. They want a right-hander.

Would you take Zherdev for $2M instead of Semin for $6-7M?

Would you do it if it meant being able to afford Parise and/or Suter?
I understand Zherdev isn't the perfect player. But he's got the kind of skill that can help. Hudler isn't the perfect player either. And he was fine, IMO, at $2.8M. And I think Zherdev can be better than Hudler by a long way.



Quote:
What's especially funny is that you're basing all your entire argument of his fittingness for the team on the ludicrous claims that:

A) He's Russian and so would somehow, by default, work well with Datsyuk.

B) He's willing to leave the KHL this offseason and accept the completely arbitrary salary number that you came up with.

Both claims are totally arbitrary.
And
C) He's 6'2
D) He's a great skater
e) He's got a skill set that I believe fits with Datsyuk
f) He's a right winger
g) He's a right hand shot
h) If he comes, he'd come at a bargain price, or we wouldn't bother


I started this thread with the premise that Zherdev might be a bargain guy. He could come cheap and allow us to afford other, better players, while still giving us SOME of what we wanted in Semin.



You came into this thread determined to piss on it. Mission accomplished

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05-24-2012, 08:41 PM
  #120
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He never actually led the Rags in scoring, and the year you are referring to he had 58 points. Not really that impressive. It was also 4 years ago. Pass.
58 points? Tied for the lead

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05-24-2012, 08:58 PM
  #121
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^So? 58 points is 58 points, it doesn't become better just because he tied the Rangers scoring leader from 4 years ago, that makes no sense. That's like bragging about being the tallest midget.

If we keep opting for plan b players like Zherdev compared to Parise/Semin type players, we're eventually going to start getting what we pay for. You can't strike oil every dig.

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05-24-2012, 09:07 PM
  #122
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I'd rather have Semin over Zherdev, but if the Wings got Parise and Zherdev I would be thrilled.

Zherdev-Dats-Parise
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05-24-2012, 09:07 PM
  #123
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Originally Posted by GentlemanMasher View Post
^So? 58 points is 58 points, it doesn't become better just because he tied the Rangers scoring leader from 4 years ago, that makes no sense. That's like bragging about being the tallest midget.

If we keep opting for plan b players like Zherdev compared to Parise/Semin type players, we're eventually going to start getting what we pay for. You can't strike oil every dig.
To be fair, I think the original point was that we could maybe sign Zherdev while still having enough money to go after Parise/Semin.

I think the point raised on the first page, that getting him out of that contract in the KHL is a non-starter, has been the most important point made so far. Even if we do want to sign him, we'll likely have to wait until that contract is over. And if he had any interest in coming back, he wouldn't have re-upped over there.

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05-24-2012, 09:26 PM
  #124
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Me personally I don't want Zherdev at all. Too much smoke around him to deny the existence of fire.

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05-24-2012, 10:06 PM
  #125
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Me personally I don't want Zherdev at all. Too much smoke around him to deny the existence of fire.
I agree, to a point. I also remember a lot of smoke around Cleary (and he's since admitted to a fair bit of fire causing it), but he worked his ass off, and changed his game. I don't think it's out of the realm of possibilities that Zherdev would go through the same thing.

But his re-upping in the KHL speaks pretty loudly about his desire to return to NA, and there's nothing wrong with that.

The idea of trying to haul someone back from across the pond is a fair one, though. We got Lilja back from Sweden. We signed Sammy from there after a short stint with NYR. I'm not really sure who has went over the past few years, though, and who is up for a contract and could come back right now. I do think that grabbing a guy who played over here for awhile, before going back to Europe/Russia, is more likely to result in a quality player than just trying to sign whatever undrafted guy has made the most noise recently (Leino, Brunnstrom, apparently Brunner now).

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