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Old
05-23-2012, 02:36 PM
  #51
startainfection
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ManByng View Post
not bad!
the or means 1st gagner and mps or 1st whitney and mps

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05-23-2012, 02:49 PM
  #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian28 View Post
Yakupov is the available asset not Hall/RNH/Eberle. Why do you assume NYR could hold onto their untouchables but Edmonton has to pay with heavy assets for your depth package?
This is the problem with most trade proposals on this board.

Hence the overabundant number of embarrassing proposals fellow Leaf fans come up with of ~Bozak+Franson+2nd round pick for your franchise player!

If you're making a proposal that involves your team, if you're starting to dislike the proposal, that means it's probably getting into "fair" territory. If you're like "I REALLY want to do this", you're probably pretty far off.

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05-23-2012, 02:55 PM
  #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 416Leafer View Post
This is the problem with most trade proposals on this board.

Hence the overabundant number of embarrassing proposals fellow Leaf fans come up with of ~Bozak+Franson+2nd round pick for your franchise player!

If you're making a proposal that involves your team, if you're starting to dislike the proposal, that means it's probably getting into "fair" territory. If you're like "I REALLY want to do this", you're probably pretty far off.
Yet somehow your OEL + Vermette was a good proposal?

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05-23-2012, 03:42 PM
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shady Machine View Post
Yet somehow your OEL + Vermette was a good proposal?
The OEL for 1st overall is a popular trade for outsiders who aren't fans of either team since they just look at the team's structure and depth.

They see Phoenix with a surplus of good young defenceman and see Edmonton with a surplus of good young wingers and naturally feel a swap would be a good deal since it addresses both teams' areas of weakness. However, similar with the way Hall is to Edmonton, other fans don't realize that OEL is a non-starter for Coyote fans and that they won't consider any proposal that includes him.

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05-23-2012, 04:13 PM
  #55
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Probably not enough but...

#18 overall, Brandon Saad, Dylan Olsen

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Old
05-23-2012, 04:19 PM
  #56
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to some people on these boards.

The 1st overall has a really ambiguous value in terms of trades. Depending on year, team situations, management personel etc., the value of any top pick is open to interpretation.

If Tambellini is shopping the 1st naturally it will have different value to every single GM he approaches just the same as it has to every person on here who believes their opinion is written in stone.

So to answer the OP there isn't a definable value on a number 1 overall pick, far too many determining factors that play into it.

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05-23-2012, 04:19 PM
  #57
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A lot of you are making proposals that would be accepted if it were a 3rd-5th overall pick or a second overall pick in a weaker draft (like this one), but are underrating the impact of a 1st overall pick.

The number of players that are 1st overall calibre are extremely rare. If you want to have a talent like that, you're going to have to make a massive overpayment. Two or three solid pieces doesn't get you a 1st overall pick.

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05-23-2012, 05:00 PM
  #58
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Anaheim- Fowler, ANH 1st, Palmieri
Boston- Rask or Hamilton, Krejci
Buffalo- Stafford, Pysyk, Enroth, BUF 1st '13
CBJ- Johansen or Nash, Savard, Mason
Calgary- No good package options
Carolina- No good package options
Chicago- Kane
Colorado- Duchene
Dallas- Benn
Detroit- No good package options
Florida- Gudbranson, Howden or Bjugstad, FLA 1st
LAK- No good package options
Minnesota- No good package options
Montreal- Beaulieu or Tinordi, MTL 1st
Nashville- Budish, Suter (right to negotiate prior to trade)
NYR- Girardi, Stepan, Stajcer, NYR 2nd
NYI- Strome/Niederreiter, de Haan, NYI 1st
NJD- Parise (right to negotiate prior to trade)
Ottawa- Cowen, Lehner, OTT 2nd
Philadelphia- Couturier or Schenn, Coburn, PHI 1st
Phoenix- OEL, PHO 2nd
Pittsburgh- Staal, Martin, PIT 1st
St. Louis- Berglund or Stewart, Schwartz or Tarasenko, STL 1st
San Jose- No good package options
Tampa Bay- Hedman
Toronto- Schenn, Kadri, MacArthur, TOR 1st
Vancouver- Edler, Schneider, VAN 2nd
Washington- Neuvirth, Orlov, COL 1st, WAS 1st
Winnipeg- Bogosian, Petterson-Wentzel, WPG 1st

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05-23-2012, 05:01 PM
  #59
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Hawks certainly wouldn't trade Kane for the 1st overall this year.

Hell, Kane is a 1st overall pick, who is also an established player in this league.

Why would we give up a former 1st overall who we know what we're going to get for the CHANCE to draft a player who will turn out as good as Kane?

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Old
05-23-2012, 05:03 PM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Bugg View Post
Anaheim- Fowler, ANH 1st, Palmieri
Boston- Rask or Hamilton, Krejci
Buffalo- Stafford, Pysyk, Enroth
CBJ- Johansen or Nash, Savard, Mason
Calgary- No good package options
Carolina- No good package options
Chicago- Kane
Colorado- Duchene
Dallas- Benn
Detroit- No good package options
Florida- Gudbranson, Howden or Bjugstad, FLA 1st
LAK- No good package options
Minnesota- No good package options
Montreal- Beaulieu or Tinordi, MTL 1st
Nashville- Budish, Suter (right to negotiate prior to trade)
NYR- Girardi, Stepan, Stajcer, NYR 2nd
NYI- Strome/Niederreiter, de Haan, NYI 1st
NJD- Parise (right to negotiate prior to trade)
Ottawa- Cowen, Lehner, OTT 2nd
Philadelphia- Couturier or Schenn, Coburn, PHI 1st
Phoenix- OEL, PHO 2nd
Pittsburgh- Staal, Martin, PIT 1st
St. Louis- Berglund or Stewart, Schwartz or Tarasenko, STL 1st
San Jose- No good package options
Tampa Bay- Hedman
Toronto- Schenn, Kadri, MacArthur, TOR 1st
Vancouver- Edler, Schneider, VAN 2nd
Washington- Neuvirth, Orlov, COL 1st, WAS 1st
Winnipeg- Bogosian, Petterson-Wentzel, WPG 1st
LoL you forgot the None of these teams make those deals.

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Old
05-23-2012, 05:04 PM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian28 View Post
...
Quote:
The biggest problem you refuse to address with your trade proposals is the assumption Edmonton wants that many D pieces coming back. This has been pointed out by a number of fans already but here we go again.
Acknowledged. Whether or not guilty as charged is on a case by case basis.
Bottom line is if you are not going coke for pepsi, strict 1 for 1, that is only way to do value.

Quote:
1) Edmonton can't absorb that many contracts. We are only 1 below the limit.
I believe each team was balanced number of assets swapped (see post 24).
So in this case, that critique would not apply.

Quote:
2)Edmonton needs a number 1of D not a 3-4quantity or even a #2.
Set aside momentarily your contention.
Both Girardi AND Hedman have demonstrated they are each worthy of 1A designation. Neither is say, Shea Webber. But either is good enough to serve as first for most clubs.
AND you are getting 2 of them. That's value of two 1s.
As to your contention, many Edmonton fans have demonstrated lament over their D on these boards. You've got some guys with some upside. But that's about it. You do not have strong D. You need/could use a 1, a 2 and additional help.


Quote:
We have the prospect depth and they are in line with when the rebuild is scheduled to end to provide the balance you keep stressing.
Maybe. Maybe not. These guys all have to actually cut the mustard. Your actual results could well be under, at, or over your estimates.
The balance stressed in this instance was for RANGERS. They have 2 great prospect D, Noreau and Ceresniak, but they are both very raw. They are righty, I considered it balanced that as part of the compensation for Girardi + Del Zotto (core piece to get Hedman) that we get these 2 nice lefty D prospects back.
You get 2 backliners now, you are giving up 2 backliners probably minimum 2 years away.

Quote:
3) Yakupov is the available asset not Hall/RNH/Eberle.
You make my point that we can't agree as to value.
Pls note what I said at beginning of post 24.
Yakupov gets you Girardi OR Stepan +, not both.
Would take extraordinary measure to add MDZ + in equation if you upgrade to RNH +. Otherwise fine, no deal.

Quote:
Why do you assume NYR could hold onto their untouchables but Edmonton has to pay with heavy assets for your depth package?
Because I have provided so very much (Girardi AND Del Zotto AND Stepan + additional compensation) that such packages commands that much return in value, whether you want to admit to that much value being there or not. {Again, that is different from you having the right to say that is not the package you want. The value is there.}

And putting the shoe on the other foot, what makes you think McDonagh is available to anyone for any price, short of a deal for Malkin or Stamkos?

Quote:
Really not good trading partners as NY will not give up what Edmonton needs and we have zero incentive to move the 1st overall pick for a package that doesn't address our needs let alone talk about Hall/RNH.
Not good actual partners was my conclusion also, pls note original post at #24.
We simply do not agree as to what Edmonton needs/wants/can use/and what other teams can/will pay, even assuming there is a basic match.

You are free to have difference of opinion, especially w/your own team, and I don't mean for this splitting of hairs to be incendiary or disrespectful. However, I would argue that since no one is giving up Doughty/Pieterangelo/McDonagh/ _______, snubbing 2 bodies that are just below that cut, Hedman + Girardi, who any team in the league could use, let alone Oilers, is a rejection of an honest effort to come to a constructive middle ground that actually works.

Again, I don't say you don't have a right to reject the proposal.
I disagree with your assessment it doesn't help Oilers.

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Old
05-23-2012, 05:05 PM
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeffrey Lebowski View Post
Hawks certainly wouldn't trade Kane for the 1st overall this year.

Hell, Kane is a 1st overall pick, who is also an established player in this league.

Why would we give up a former 1st overall who we know what we're going to get for the CHANCE to draft a player who will turn out as good as Kane?
Most of those packages are insane that no sane GM would ever make. If you look at them some of them are pretty far off in value as well.

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05-23-2012, 05:05 PM
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UnbiasHockeyFan1 View Post
Gormley/Runblad+1st
All 3 might get you close...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Bugg View Post
Anaheim- Fowler, ANH 1st, Palmieri
Boston- Rask or Hamilton, Krejci
Buffalo- Stafford, Pysyk, Enroth, BUF 1st '13
CBJ- Johansen or Nash, Savard, Mason
Calgary- No good package options
Carolina- No good package options
Chicago- Kane
Colorado- Duchene
Dallas- Benn
Detroit- No good package options
Florida- Gudbranson, Howden or Bjugstad, FLA 1st
LAK- No good package options
Minnesota- No good package options
Montreal- Beaulieu or Tinordi, MTL 1st
Nashville- Budish, Suter (right to negotiate prior to trade)
NYR- Girardi, Stepan, Stajcer, NYR 2nd
NYI- Strome/Niederreiter, de Haan, NYI 1st
NJD- Parise (right to negotiate prior to trade)
Ottawa- Cowen, Lehner, OTT 2nd
Philadelphia- Couturier or Schenn, Coburn, PHI 1st
Phoenix- OEL, PHO 2nd
Pittsburgh- Staal, Martin, PIT 1st
St. Louis- Berglund or Stewart, Schwartz or Tarasenko, STL 1st
San Jose- No good package options
Tampa Bay- Hedman
Toronto- Schenn, Kadri, MacArthur, TOR 1st
Vancouver- Edler, Schneider, VAN 2nd
Washington- Neuvirth, Orlov, COL 1st, WAS 1st
Winnipeg- Bogosian, Petterson-Wentzel, WPG 1st
Its odd how half of these are terrible for the oilers and half are terrible for the other team.

really SJ couldn't work? couture+?

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Old
05-23-2012, 05:07 PM
  #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeffrey Lebowski View Post
Hawks certainly wouldn't trade Kane for the 1st overall this year.

Hell, Kane is a 1st overall pick, who is also an established player in this league.

Why would we give up a former 1st overall who we know what we're going to get for the CHANCE to draft a player who will turn out as good as Kane?
declining production, off ice issues, $$$alary, closer to UFA status etc.

Yakupov also has a CHANCE to be better then Kane.

edit: @Bugg: are the commas '+' ?

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05-23-2012, 05:14 PM
  #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bernmeister View Post
Acknowledged. Whether or not guilty as charged is on a case by case basis.
Bottom line is if you are not going coke for pepsi, strict 1 for 1, that is only way to do value.


I believe each team was balanced number of assets swapped (see post 24).
So in this case, that critique would not apply.


Set aside momentarily your contention.
Both Girardi AND Hedman have demonstrated they are each worthy of 1A designation. Neither is say, Shea Webber. But either is good enough to serve as first for most clubs.
AND you are getting 2 of them. That's value of two 1s.
As to your contention, many Edmonton fans have demonstrated lament over their D on these boards. You've got some guys with some upside. But that's about it. You do not have strong D. You need/could use a 1, a 2 and additional help.



Maybe. Maybe not. These guys all have to actually cut the mustard. Your actual results could well be under, at, or over your estimates.
The balance stressed in this instance was for RANGERS. They have 2 great prospect D, Noreau and Ceresniak, but they are both very raw. They are righty, I considered it balanced that as part of the compensation for Girardi + Del Zotto (core piece to get Hedman) that we get these 2 nice lefty D prospects back.
You get 2 backliners now, you are giving up 2 backliners probably minimum 2 years away.


You make my point that we can't agree as to value.
Pls note what I said at beginning of post 24.
Yakupov gets you Girardi OR Stepan +, not both.
Would take extraordinary measure to add MDZ + in equation if you upgrade to RNH +. Otherwise fine, no deal.


Because I have provided so very much (Girardi AND Del Zotto AND Stepan + additional compensation) that such packages commands that much return in value, whether you want to admit to that much value being there or not. {Again, that is different from you having the right to say that is not the package you want. The value is there.}

And putting the shoe on the other foot, what makes you think McDonagh is available to anyone for any price, short of a deal for Malkin or Stamkos?


Not good actual partners was my conclusion also, pls note original post at #24.
We simply do not agree as to what Edmonton needs/wants/can use/and what other teams can/will pay, even assuming there is a basic match.

You are free to have difference of opinion, especially w/your own team, and I don't mean for this splitting of hairs to be incendiary or disrespectful. However, I would argue that since no one is giving up Doughty/Pieterangelo/McDonagh/ _______, snubbing 2 bodies that are just below that cut, Hedman + Girardi, who any team in the league could use, let alone Oilers, is a rejection of an honest effort to come to a constructive middle ground that actually works.

Again, I don't say you don't have a right to reject the proposal.
I disagree with your assessment it doesn't help Oilers.
Another very lengthy reply where you again focus solely on NYR needs.

Hedman will not be moved but if he was being shopped why would Edminton include the rangers rather than deal with Tampa straight up?

It wouldn't be Tambellini calling Sather looking for the package but Sather calling Tambo looking for the 1st. That puts negotiating power in Edm hands not NYR. Secondly there is nothing in your offer that would ever conceivable give NY choice of Edmonton players. While the trade on base moves Edm beyond the bottom 10 it kills the rebuild before we have what we need to compete but gives the Rangers prime scoring without losing their D moving forward. That kinda suggests to everyone including other Ranger fans that it isn't a deal Edm would make.


Last edited by Brian28: 05-23-2012 at 05:19 PM.
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Old
05-23-2012, 05:15 PM
  #66
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Kane is also only 23 and has much more time to improve, his off-ice issues are greatly exaggerated, his salary is on par with the player he is right now and still has 4 years left on his deal before he hits UFA.

I'd rather have that right now than a player who, maybe, could turn out as good as Kane. At best, Yakupov's contract will be better for 3 years while producing similarly and then will earn something similar to what Kane's earning now.

So why would the Hawks take such a big gamble?

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05-23-2012, 05:18 PM
  #67
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@Bern

why do you draw up the 3 way trade with NYR not getting Yakupov? isn't that what you need the most?(sniper/winger)

I also noticed you have up two of your top 4 Dmen without getting any back...which leads me to wonder would you give up Girardi+MDZ for yakupov? we can send whitney back if you want to gamble on that, or not if you want the cap space.

No interest in stepan/dubinsky, i also dont feel like we can get enough value out of pitlick, so hes probably off the table.

RNH/Hall/Eberle 100% off limits. as much i like the idea of getting hedmen, not worth giving them up.

One of gernat/marancin could be available, but not both.

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05-23-2012, 05:18 PM
  #68
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would the rags do 1st/OV + for stepan and girardi? what would the + be?

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05-23-2012, 05:20 PM
  #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Bugg View Post

NYI- Strome/Niederreiter, de Haan, NYI 1st
Ehh..Snow politely declines.

Isles will sit tight and happily take one of Murray/Galenchuk/Forsberg/Dumba at #4.

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05-23-2012, 05:20 PM
  #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HooliganX2 View Post
LoL you forgot the None of these teams make those deals.
Then none of those teams get a 1st overall talent.

And Toronto would do that in an instant. Any team would trade a bunch of spare parts for a 1st overall player.

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05-23-2012, 05:20 PM
  #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Bugg View Post
Anaheim- Fowler, ANH 1st, Palmieri
Boston- Rask or Hamilton, Krejci
Buffalo- Stafford, Pysyk, Enroth, BUF 1st '13
CBJ- Johansen or Nash, Savard, Mason
Calgary- No good package options
Carolina- No good package options
Chicago- Kane
Colorado- Duchene
Dallas- Benn
Detroit- No good package options
Florida- Gudbranson, Howden or Bjugstad, FLA 1st
LAK- No good package options
Minnesota- No good package options
Montreal- Beaulieu or Tinordi, MTL 1st
Nashville- Budish, Suter (right to negotiate prior to trade)
NYR- Girardi, Stepan, Stajcer, NYR 2nd
NYI- Strome/Niederreiter, de Haan, NYI 1st
NJD- Parise (right to negotiate prior to trade)
Ottawa- Cowen, Lehner, OTT 2nd
Philadelphia- Couturier or Schenn, Coburn, PHI 1st
Phoenix- OEL, PHO 2nd
Pittsburgh- Staal, Martin, PIT 1st
St. Louis- Berglund or Stewart, Schwartz or Tarasenko, STL 1st
San Jose- No good package options
Tampa Bay- Hedman
Toronto- Schenn, Kadri, MacArthur, TOR 1st
Vancouver- Edler, Schneider, VAN 2nd
Washington- Neuvirth, Orlov, COL 1st, WAS 1st
Winnipeg- Bogosian, Petterson-Wentzel, WPG 1st
No thanks.

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05-23-2012, 05:22 PM
  #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeffrey Lebowski View Post
Kane is also only 23 and has much more time to improve, his off-ice issues are greatly exaggerated, his salary is on par with the player he is right now and still has 4 years left on his deal before he hits UFA.

I'd rather have that right now than a player who, maybe, could turn out as good as Kane. At best, Yakupov's contract will be better for 3 years while producing similarly and then will earn something similar to what Kane's earning now.

So why would the Hawks take such a big gamble?
hey I was just guessing the possible reasons why CHI might want to trade Kane for 1st overall.
Also, he has 3 more years left in his deal not 4.

As an Oiler fan, The value is there but I would take a chance on 7 yrs of Yakupov minus 'exagerrated' issues over Kane.

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05-23-2012, 05:22 PM
  #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Bugg View Post
Anaheim- Fowler, ANH 1st, Palmieri
Boston- Rask or Hamilton, Krejci
Buffalo- Stafford, Pysyk, Enroth, BUF 1st '13
CBJ- Johansen or Nash, Savard, Mason
Calgary- No good package options
Carolina- No good package options
Chicago- Kane
Colorado- Duchene
Dallas- Benn
Detroit- No good package options
Florida- Gudbranson, Howden or Bjugstad, FLA 1st
LAK- No good package options
Minnesota- No good package options
Montreal- Beaulieu or Tinordi, MTL 1st
Nashville- Budish, Suter (right to negotiate prior to trade)
NYR- Girardi, Stepan, Stajcer, NYR 2nd
NYI- Strome/Niederreiter, de Haan, NYI 1st
NJD- Parise (right to negotiate prior to trade)
Ottawa- Cowen, Lehner, OTT 2nd
Philadelphia- Couturier or Schenn, Coburn, PHI 1st
Phoenix- OEL, PHO 2nd
Pittsburgh- Staal, Martin, PIT 1st
St. Louis- Berglund or Stewart, Schwartz or Tarasenko, STL 1st
San Jose- No good package options
Tampa Bay- Hedman
Toronto- Schenn, Kadri, MacArthur, TOR 1st
Vancouver- Edler, Schneider, VAN 2nd
Washington- Neuvirth, Orlov, COL 1st, WAS 1st
Winnipeg- Bogosian, Petterson-Wentzel, WPG 1st
Thanks for keeping tabs.
I assume this is just for the 1st.

Not sure Rangers go this high: "NYR- Girardi, Stepan, Stajcer, NYR 2nd" just for Yakupov.
But they might.

My post is about adding more (including MDZ) and getting more (Including RNH).

Please note the importance of competition.
A package of "NYR- Girardi, Stepan, Stajcer, NYR 2nd" should be enough to get Nash. Nash is somewhat, but not ridiculously overpriced, has a contract you are locked in for a bit, and Nash is established NHL sniper.

I wouldn't overpay for Nash since he seems to want out of CBJ, and all he has to do is show up, not bust his butt; so BlueJackets must move him at reasonable, not top dollar.

But my point is being proved. Ridiculous overpayment for 1st will not be had. Nash and others = alternate opportunity for sniper.

Hell, if they don't get Parise (see him going to Wild), then maybe a short leash (1 yr.) deal with Semin, assuming he wants the Cup and not top $$$, is a possibility for Rangers.

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05-23-2012, 05:23 PM
  #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by startainfection View Post
nino, bailey, 4th overall, de haan

for 1st, whitney or gagner and mps
No interest in using such a high pick on a Russian.Not to sound like Grapes,but we are seeing what a headache the KHL has been for Snow.

Is Gagner's 45 pts, some sort of upgrade on Nielsen's 45 pts?Have potential 2nd line centers Brock Nelson and Strome,done something to sour the NYI front office and scouts on them?

You really think the isles are gambling on Whitney's knees and ankles,at $5m per?Shouldn't he be proving that the last 2 yrs of injuries are behind him, before a team gambles on acquiring him?

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05-23-2012, 05:26 PM
  #75
HooliganX2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 5RingsAndABeer View Post
Then none of those teams get a 1st overall talent.

And Toronto would do that in an instant. Any team would trade a bunch of spare parts for a 1st overall player.
Honestly I haven't seen many other teams fans make offers for the #1 overall. It's more or less EDM fans trying to trade the 1st overall or gauging it's value. And as you can see there is a huge gap in the 1st overall between EDM fans and just about every other fan base.

I really don't think Nail is the player Toronto would want in this draft. I think they are pretty happy to have a chance to get the player they really want in this draft at #5. You really don't seem to factor in other teams needs in your view points. Toronto already has an elite sniper what Nail projects to be so the need for Nail is less. They need a #1 center more so. So all of that and not even getting the player they really need is not good asset management.


Last edited by HooliganX2: 05-23-2012 at 05:37 PM.
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