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Spacek/Gill confirm Martin is garbage coach, Gauthier senile old man, Cunney a puppet

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Old
05-29-2012, 01:16 AM
  #401
HarlemsFinest
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so many cool things to quote in the article.

"For my 1,000th game, Geoff Molson made labels for Molson Export bottles with my picture on them. I’ve got a case. I think there were two cases but we had a party after. I thought that was pretty cool."

rep for geoff that's got to be so cool! and honestly that gesture speaks volumes about the guy. imo he bided his time with the gainey and gauthier era and hoped for the best and had a good crash course in learning a whole bunch of things not to repeat. (even if he inherited decisions, they became his problems, i recon he doesn't want to make mistakes). but this guy bleeds for the team, is honored to own it and knows what it means to be a fan because he is a fan of this team. he has a vision. he will bring us at the very least respectability in terms of performance and secondly our reputation. he will right this ship in the direction of a cup.

maybe i'm all excited cause this is really the first clean house/new world order that i am witnessing while being old enough to aknowledge and appreciate the importance of these things...but i have a good feeling about this. that seems to be shared by a lot of other smart hockey people on here so maybe it's legitimately something to look forward to for hopefully many years to come.

we don't gotta win it all every year, no one can. and no one should ask that. but get us believing that we COULD feasibly do it because the product on the ice is worhty of being labelled a contender, something to cheer for.

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05-29-2012, 02:52 AM
  #402
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I had a good exit meeting in Nashville. We’re going to try to work something out. It’s hard to compare Nashville to anything I’ve been a part of: Toronto, Boston, Pittsburgh, Montreal. In Nashville, if you make a turnover and cost a goal, you’re not afraid of the boos. You really have to be awful to be noticed. You can just go out there and play. It’s great but I don’t know how long you’d last before you’d get complacent.
That gave me a chuckle. Gill is the Kevin Nash of hockey.

It's sad though that his children have learned to speak french and they are leaving for Boston.

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05-29-2012, 03:15 AM
  #403
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at least his kids will be well cultured.

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05-29-2012, 05:18 AM
  #404
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Originally Posted by Stradale View Post
Then, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. I much rather give Halak credits for that playoffs run than JM's so called system or strategy. I still wonder if that was really a strategy or a mix of great goaltending and an very opportunistic couple of forwards.

It was nice to see the Habs go far but I don't think we played THAT well even if we made it to the conference finals. First round was won mostly because of Halak.

We have 4 out of our top 6 forwards that did not scored a single goal in the 7 games 2nd round against the Pens. All of them actually went scoreless for 12+games in those 19 games we played.

And then back to reality in the ECF. Top 6 forwards continued their scoring drought and an exhausted goalie that can't pulled miracle anymore. Shutout 3 times. Scored 2 goals in the 4 losses. Out in 5.
I agree with everything you've said, some people don't like the term, lucky, but that's exactly what we were. We played bad and won, sometimes it happens, over a short series it's possible, over the long haul it's unsustainable, kind of like Hunter this year with the Caps, his coaching was absolutely atrocious, but they won a rd in spite of him, almost two rds.

I don't give credit unless it's deserved and JM deserves very little for that playoff run, it wasn't his fault alone though, our team, on paper just didn't match up. We gave up 40+ shots and people think it's a strategy, hahahaha, same as 50+.

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05-29-2012, 05:24 AM
  #405
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The senile guy you are talking about was only trying to protect the organisation from crazy fans and medias to avoid controbersy.. That was his method good or not it was still legitimate.. The old senile man is the one who took the decision to keep Price and trade Halak for Eller and Schultz when about 80% of the fans wanted the opposite, a huge decision that could have changed the curse of the history.. So a bit of respect plz, Gauthier wasnt all garbage, he has been put in a very tough situation with big contracts (Gomez Cammy) to deal with and the fact Molson basically signed his dead just after Gauthier fired Martin saying that the next coach would speak french, what removed any power, credibility and grip Cunny could have had on the team..

Now, lets see how the new phylosophy regarding better communication with the medias will lead to, personally I think its going to get crazy as hell at one point, especially if the team keep losing.. There are plenty of vultures around of the team that wont hesitate to start crap if they are scooped..
Agree with this guy. Gauthier wasn't all bad, he made some good moves. His methods were questionable, granted, but he was handcuffed from day 1 with those big contracts.

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05-29-2012, 07:30 AM
  #406
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They discussed Spacek and Gill's comments on the previous regime last night on L'Antichambre. Stephane Leroux had some really interesting things to say about it. You can find the 17+ min clip in the Zone Video under "La Famille du Canadien s'agrandit" on the RDS site. Anyone still supporting PG after hearing what he has to say will need their head examined.


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05-29-2012, 08:31 AM
  #407
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They discussed Spacek and Gill's comments on the previous regime last night on L'Antichambre. Stephane Leroux had some really interesting things to say about it. You can find the 16-17min clip in the Zone Video on the RDS site. Anyone still supporting PG after hearing what he has to say will need their head examined.
They'll find excuses, rest assured. The most common one will be to downplay l'Antichambre.

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05-29-2012, 08:40 AM
  #408
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They'll find excuses, rest assured. The most common one will be to downplay l'Antichambre.
And normally I'd agree with them but I have a tremendous amount of respect for Stephanie Leroux. He's one of the few guys at RDS that knows his stuff.

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05-29-2012, 09:03 AM
  #409
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Originally Posted by Stradale View Post
Then, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. I much rather give Halak credits for that playoffs run than JM's so called system or strategy. I still wonder if that was really a strategy or a mix of great goaltending and an very opportunistic couple of forwards.

It was nice to see the Habs go far but I don't think we played THAT well even if we made it to the conference finals. First round was won mostly because of Halak.

We have 4 out of our top 6 forwards that did not scored a single goal in the 7 games 2nd round against the Pens. All of them actually went scoreless for 12+games in those 19 games we played.

And then back to reality in the ECF. Top 6 forwards continued their scoring drought and an exhausted goalie that can't pulled miracle anymore. Shutout 3 times. Scored 2 goals in the 4 losses. Out in 5.
I don't think we played that well either. But that's not the point.

There's more to coaching than just enstoring a system. What about the line matching? What abou preparing the team? What about the special teams? Etc..

My point is that you cannot simply attribute that run to a hot keeper and couple of players.

I've been clear on Hartley and how despite his record in Colorado, I still think he underachieved there. But he still managed to win a cup, and even if it was with an all-star roster, he deserves some credit.

Same applies here. We didn't win the cup, but we were clear underdogs, by far, and managed to go that far. Even if our goalie was pulling miracles, and was the key factor of that run, management still deserves their share of credit.

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05-29-2012, 09:08 AM
  #410
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By perfect hockey, you mean take a lead and then sit on it and pray the goalie to pull a miracle?

How is letting the other team bombarded your goalie with 54 (or 32 shots after 2 periods) shots is impressive and perfect hockey? They were plenty of great scoring chances in those 54 shots.

From NHL.com

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Halak is the reason the Canadiens are not packing up their belongings and heading into the offseason. They looked dead after losing Game 4, 6-3, but Halak has stopped 90 of the last 92 shots he has faced.

"I thought he was above and beyond the call of duty," Cammalleri said of the goalie. "We expected and needed him to play a good game, but tonight was one of those superb performances. It'll be on ESPN or TSN Classic tomorrow."

Did Halak win the game for the Habs?

"No doubt about it," Cammalleri said. "No question in anybody's mind."

"He was the best player on the ice tonight, no doubt about it," added Josh Gorges.

Eighteen of Halak's saves Monday night came when the Capitals were trying to find a way to finally break through on the power play.

"He's our biggest killer and he was huge," defenseman Hal Gill said.
What are you saying? The players on this team, understand why we won, more than the incredible hockey minds on this message board?
Blasphemy, I tell you.... the nerve of suggesting these facts!

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05-29-2012, 10:02 AM
  #411
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I love the thread title





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05-29-2012, 10:08 AM
  #412
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Cunney wasn't a puppet, he was just a horrible coach, simply as that. The guy was in charge of the PP, which was one of the main reason for our horrible season. Plus Gill said it himself, Gauthier was never around the team, so how could he be telling Cunneyworth what to do, and why would Cunneyworth listen, the guy got thrown under the bus by Molson first, and then Gauthier, why not wouldn't be go out doing it his way?

Also in regards to PG, the guy is simply not a leader, he is more suited for an ast GM job, the guy is not a people person, the doesn't mean he is a bad hockey guy, but his distrust of ppl was one of his downfalls. And I think Gill pointed to it, that he was too much by the book, and I believe PG has a degree in business management (from his bio Habs site when he was GM), so it makes sense, and explains how he was so by the book in regards to informing players of trades etc.

Ppl made it seem like he simply told the players they were traded and to wait until the other team calls them, but rather told them they were traded, before they find out thru the media, (Ex Jack Johnson, Tom Gilbert), but couldn't tell them where until the trade was offical. That is the perfect example of PG, by the book, but comes off rude, distrustful. And when our team is lossing, these become a bigger issue then they might be if the team was winning. Which is why we only heard about this this year, not the year before when the team was doing well.


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05-29-2012, 10:39 AM
  #413
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Cunney wasn't a puppet, he was just a horrible coach, simply as that. The guy was in charge of the PP, which was one of the main reason for our horrible season. Plus Gill said it himself, Gauthier was never around the team, so how could he be telling Cunneyworth what to do, and why would Cunneyworth listen, the guy got thrown under the bus by Molson first, and then Gauthier, why not wouldn't be go out doing it his way?

Also in regards to PG, the guy is simply not a leader, he is more suited for an ast GM job, the guy is not a people person, the doesn't mean he is a bad hockey guy, but his distrust of ppl was one of his downfalls. And I think Gill pointed to it, that he was too much by the book, and I believe PG has a degree in business management (from his bio Habs site when he was GM), so it makes sense, and explains how he was so by the book in regards to informing players of trades etc.

Ppl made it seem like he simply told the players they were traded and to wait until the other team calls them, but rather told them they were traded, before they find out thru the media, (Ex Jack Johnson, Tom Gilbert), but couldn't tell them where until the trade was offical. That is the perfect example of PG, by the book, but comes off rude, distrustful. And when our team is lossing, these become a bigger issue then they might be if the team was winning. Which is why we only heard about this this year, not the year before when the team was doing well.
Cunneyworth was obviously hired/promoted by Gauthier, yeah? Are you asking people to believe that the two never met through the hiring/promotion process, and that expectations/directions weren't discussed then? I've never heard of a hiring/promotion process where the successful candidate isn't given a "mandate" by their superiors before day 1 of the new job. If the message on that topic was clear then, why/when would either guy necessarily pursue the discussion again before the season ended anyway (especially if PG expected to still be around, and wasn't really interested in considering Cunneyworth for the permanent position, regardless)?

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05-29-2012, 10:41 AM
  #414
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That gave me a chuckle. Gill is the Kevin Nash of hockey.

It's sad though that his children have learned to speak french and they are leaving for Boston.
future coach or gm material!!

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05-29-2012, 10:57 AM
  #415
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Cunneyworth was obviously hired/promoted by Gauthier, yeah? Are you asking people to believe that the two never met through the hiring/promotion process, and that expectations/directions weren't discussed then? I've never heard of a hiring/promotion process where the successful candidate isn't given a "mandate" by their superiors before day 1 of the new job. If the message on that topic was clear then, why/when would either guy necessarily pursue the discussion again before the season ended anyway (especially if PG expected to still be around, and wasn't really interested in considering Cunneyworth for the permanent position, regardless)?
So that could be said that all coaches are puppets. The Cunneyworth was a puppet comment started from Spacek, the guy that was traded a week within the Cunneyworth hiring. Cunneyworth was simply a horrible coach.

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05-29-2012, 11:19 AM
  #416
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So that could be said that all coaches are puppets. The Cunneyworth was a puppet comment started from Spacek, the guy that was traded a week within the Cunneyworth hiring. Cunneyworth was simply a horrible coach.
Yes, I suppose it could. In this case, though, it can be said based on the strength of anecdotal evidence, at least. If you tried to say it of anyone else, the burden of proof would be on you to provide at least as much "firepower" as there is regarding the PG/Martin/Cunneyworth relationship.

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05-29-2012, 11:50 AM
  #417
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Also, wasn't it an ironic theme that year? Whenever Halak faced less than 35 shots, he'd look worse and lose? But give him 50 and he'd play amazingly??
In the end, the theme of the year was that it was Martin's first year. Like tons of coaches before him, chances are you'll do great in your first year (I know, don't say that to Cunneyworth but still...). So Martin isn't crap. But the way I rate the coaches are either you are great, good or bad. You are great when you are able to sell your stuff more than the 1st year and are actually able to survive the regular 3-4years before you are usually being fired. You are good when you might actually give another breath to your team, yet, it might not last very long but maybe you would have been able in the process to give some good results before you are fired. And you have bad coaches who are just....bad. For me, right now, Martin fits the "good" profile. He does not have a good enough profile and he is not seen as incredibly great by his players to justify giving him the team more than the regular 3-4 years "good" coaches have. So it's time to move on. And chances are, we will end up with another "good" coach in Hartley. A guy who might give another breath to some players with the risk involved that it might alienate others who will then do a Spacek of themselves and bash him in 3-4 years. But in the meantime.....maybe we'd be able to repeat a conference finals and maybe a cup final. And in the meantime, if we play our cards right, maybe we'll be able to find this GREAT available coach that will make us go further and for a very long time.

I mean, in a world where the supposed great coaches, you know that guys who win or are nominated for a trophy are fired 1 or 2 year after, I'm not sure it's that surprising to see a guy like Martin be fired after 3.....or 2 1/2. Mind you, you also have to ADD the fact that he should not have been fired and have him finish the year. It was done by a guy who desperately wanted to save his ass. Again, being fired doesn't mean you are terrible. There are a lot of reasons why including a stupid GM who thinks he's all that and ended up being all this....

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05-29-2012, 12:48 PM
  #418
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In the end, the theme of the year was that it was Martin's first year. Like tons of coaches before him, chances are you'll do great in your first year (I know, don't say that to Cunneyworth but still...). So Martin isn't crap. But the way I rate the coaches are either you are great, good or bad. You are great when you are able to sell your stuff more than the 1st year and are actually able to survive the regular 3-4years before you are usually being fired. You are good when you might actually give another breath to your team, yet, it might not last very long but maybe you would have been able in the process to give some good results before you are fired. And you have bad coaches who are just....bad. For me, right now, Martin fits the "good" profile. He does not have a good enough profile and he is not seen as incredibly great by his players to justify giving him the team more than the regular 3-4 years "good" coaches have. So it's time to move on. And chances are, we will end up with another "good" coach in Hartley. A guy who might give another breath to some players with the risk involved that it might alienate others who will then do a Spacek of themselves and bash him in 3-4 years. But in the meantime.....maybe we'd be able to repeat a conference finals and maybe a cup final. And in the meantime, if we play our cards right, maybe we'll be able to find this GREAT available coach that will make us go further and for a very long time.

I mean, in a world where the supposed great coaches, you know that guys who win or are nominated for a trophy are fired 1 or 2 year after, I'm not sure it's that surprising to see a guy like Martin be fired after 3.....or 2 1/2. Mind you, you also have to ADD the fact that he should not have been fired and have him finish the year. It was done by a guy who desperately wanted to save his ass. Again, being fired doesn't mean you are terrible. There are a lot of reasons why including a stupid GM who thinks he's all that and ended up being all this....
I think you're kind of answering your post within it.
Martin was fired by a desperate man. Whether he should have been let go by the end of the year is anyone's guess. Most people that say he should have seem to base their opinion on personal preference, not really on performance.
Ironically, Martin's best result came in his first year here but our team performed much better in the following year. He had a rough start this past season (although we were still outplaying opponents) but seemed to have set the team back on the right track before getting fired (12-7-5 after the streak).

I just think it's wrong to go through extremes. I don't think saying coach has no merit is right, nor is saying we got that far thanks to him.

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05-29-2012, 03:41 PM
  #419
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It's going to be interesting to see what the future holds for Martin. He's been an NHL coach for 17 years and not once did he make the finals. Martin is turning 60 in October so his head coaching career stands a good chance of having had its final chapter written in Montreal. I think it's reasonable to assert that Martin was a capable-but not excellent-coach. Never having even played for the Cup in that length of time is not indicative of a great coach. It's certainly not the only measure, but it is telling especially given the talent of some of his Ottawa teams.

The fact that he wasn't considered a "great communicator" by several players isn't surprising. Martin is a generation and a half removed from his players and the style of many coaches has changed in that 30 year period. I would doubt, however, that Darryl Sutter falls into the "lovey-dovey, let's sit down and chat and see what you're feeling" category. LOL. Nonetheless, he's playing for the Cup this week.

The timing of Martin's firing-whether justified or not-was as poor as was possible. The Canadiens were playing that evening and played a brutal 4 in 5 with significant travel in that time. There was going to be zero practice time for the new coach to institute anything new. Gauthier's decision making on the timing of the change was nothing shy of brutal. Trading Cammalleri had its pros and cons, but trading him for Bourque was just ridiculous. It was a move which reeked of panic. Four more years of the sorry floater Bourque is something which even a somewhat below average GM wouldn't have done to his team.

The decision to hire Cunneyworth was nothing shy of incompetent. Not because of Cunneyworth's ultimate record, but because of Gauthier's epic lack of foresight on dealing with language considerations. Molson's handling of the situation was poor-essentially firing Cunneyworth within days of the hire-but the entire fiasco was born of Gauthier's complete and inexcusable failure to forsee the predictable consequences of a unilingual, anglo hiring.

The revamping of the management team (coaching/assistants and GM/AGMs) after the botched firing of Martin was inevitable. Molson appears to have made a decent hire in Bergevin. A clean management break from the Gainey/Gauthier era has been effected and that was essential for the franchise to move forward.


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05-29-2012, 04:04 PM
  #420
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It's going to be interesting to see what the future holds for Martin. He's been an NHL coach for 17 years and not once did he make the finals. Martin is turning 60 in October so his head coaching career stands a good chance of having had its final chapter written in Montreal. I think it's reasonable to assert that Martin was a capable-but not excellent-coach. Never having even played for the Cup in that length of time is not indicative of a great coach. It's certainly not the only measure, but it is telling especially given the talent of some of his Ottawa teams.

The fact that he wasn't considered a "great communicator" by several players isn't surprising. Martin is a generation and a half removed from his players and the style of many coaches has changed in that 30 year period. I would doubt, however, that Darryl Sutter falls into the "lovey-dovey, let's sit down and chat and see what you're feeling" category. LOL. Nonetheless, he's playing for the Cup this week.

The timing of Martin's firing-whether justified or not-was as poor as was possible. The Canadiens were playing that evening and played a brutal 4 in 5 with significant travel in that time. There was going to be zero practice time for the new coach to institute anything new. Gauthier's decision making on the timing of the change was nothing shy of brutal. Trading Cammalleri had its pros and cons, but trading him for Bourque was just ridiculous. It was a move which reeked of panic. Four more years of the sorry floater Bourque is something which even a somewhat below average GM wouldn't have done to his team.

The decision to hire Cunneyworth was nothing shy of incompetent. Not because of Cunneyworth's ultimate record, but because of Gauthier's epic lack of foresight on dealing with language considerations. Molson's handling of the situation was poor-essentially firing Cunneyworth within days of the hire-but the entire fiasco was born of Gauthier's complete and inexcusable failure to forsee the predictable consequences of a unilingual, anglo hiring.

The revamping of the management team (coaching/assistants and GM/AGMs) after the botched firing of Martin was inevitable. Molson appears to have made a decent hire in Bergevin. A clean management break from the Gainey/Gauthier era has been effected and that was essential for the franchise to move forward.
Its a good question. I dont know how many contacts he has remaining in the league as part of the older regime, but I certainly think that his stock as a coach is higher since his time in Montreal than what it was in florida. Whether it rose high enough to gather attention around the league, I don't know.

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05-29-2012, 07:59 PM
  #421
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By perfect hockey, you mean take a lead and then sit on it and pray the goalie to pull a miracle?

How is letting the other team bombarded your goalie with 54 (or 32 shots after 2 periods) shots is impressive and perfect hockey? They were plenty of great scoring chances in those 54 shots.
None of what you are saying has any relevance to the first half of the hockey game, and if you read my post properly, you would have realized this.

Washington only got 38 shots in that game BTW.


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05-29-2012, 08:27 PM
  #422
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And here I thought, since many fans were blaming Carbo for his "lack of system", "changing the lines", "weird decisions" and mostly, "poor communication"... Here are a few comments by Hal Gill, in addition to what Spacek already divulged:

Quote:
I read where Spatcho said we didn’t have a system that fit us. I think Jacques put something out there then let us handle everything else. He let the older guys kinda take control – Gio, Cammy, Gomer, me, Moen… all these guys who’d come in (as UFAs or, in Gomez’s case, by trade). I thought we didn’t really know what to do, but it was our team. Then we had success because we worked as a team, that’s how we got into the playoffs (going three rounds deep in 2009-10).

The message (from the coaching staff) was we need to play as a team with their system. I tried to preach it but the hard part was we didn’t play to guys’ strengths. With Gomez, you don’t expect him to chip it up the boards, you want him to come back and pick it up. If he can’t do that, he can’t be effective. With me, I have to do what I do.
Quote:
The frustrating part is I wanted to play with P.K., that’s why I signed (last summer) for another year. But Jacques wanted to switch it up.
Quote:
Communication wasn’t Jacques’s strength. He’s a great guy but he’s quiet. You could talk to him but he was rigid in his ways. It would be, “I’ll listen to you but I’m the coach and this is what I’m going to do.” Some guys now, newer coaches, want to hear what you’re thinking. When I went to Nashville, the coaches were talking to me: “What are you thinking? What do you want to do? Do you like playing with this guy or that guy?” There was a lot more communication.
Source...

And for the weird decisions, putting Moen in a shootout? Darche on the top lines and/or on the PP instead of Erik Cole? Do your homework, Jacques...

All hail the great Martin, the Experienced One!

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05-29-2012, 09:36 PM
  #423
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Originally Posted by buddahsmoka1 View Post
None of what you are saying has any relevance to the first half of the hockey game, and if you read my post properly, you would have realized this.

Washington only got 38 shots in that game BTW.
I purposely specify that the Caps got 32 shots after 2 periods. Yeah its not necessairly half game since i dont have the shot numbers at the 10min mark but after 2. We were being outshot 32-13. Its got even worse in the third.

Washington got 38 shots in game 5... But we were talking about game 6 aren't we.. And they got 54 shots in game 6.

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05-29-2012, 09:37 PM
  #424
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Martin could at least identify his best players and give them appropriate icetime, unlike Carbo. A lot has been made about Moen in the top-6, but Moen has always been miscast as a physical tough-guy meant to bring physicality to the club when his role was always to be a low-event tough-matchups defensive forward. It was in that role that he was used as a top-6 replacement, because Martin was very matchup-aware and preferred to play power-on-power for most of his tenure. Likewise, he'd use Darche in an offensive exploitation role because that played to his strengths.

Carbo was a different animal altogether and his ability to recognize his best players and put them in the best possible situations was... less good. In fact outside of the PP I'm not sure Carbo did anything well. The whole "poor communication" is a giant red herring IMO, I suspect because "communication" is something that the media understands well and sees as extremely valuable, being in the communication business themselves. And he probably was poor at it and that was probably a detriment but that was never the real issue.

The biggest problem was elsewhere: his teams were terrible 5-on-5, where they got continually outchanced and outplayed. The fact that Carbo overplayed his poorer players at the expense of his better ones was certainly a factor, nevermind the weird notion of putting an "energy" player on every line, with the end result of having a weak 4th-line player on every available matchup. (The opposing coach probably had trouble restraining guffaws when setting up his matchups against that.) Likewise Tanguay was his best 5-on-5 player, and it was silly to give Tom Kostopoulos as much 5-on-5 icetime as Tanguay, especially since it seemed to be due to Carbo preferring Kostopoulos's grindery go-go-go style Tanguay's more cerebral (and far more effective) style of play.

Looking at matchups, it was obvious that Martin paid attention and there was a rational basis for his lineup decisions, even if one did not always agree with them. Carbo did things because they made sense in the grinder, work-ethic-uber-alles mentality, and the team was the poorer for it -- we got another dose of that with Cunneyworth, actually.

Ultimately, Carbo wanted a team of 20 Kostopouloses and tried to get everyone playing that way. The problem is that a team of 20 Kostpouloses would suck. Carbo made it work because his goaltending was awesome and because while his 5-on-5 coaching was terrible, his PP was amazing.

(Then again, I keep being told Muller was the Great Architect of the PP...)


Last edited by MathMan: 05-29-2012 at 09:42 PM.
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05-29-2012, 09:42 PM
  #425
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Preds fans are up in arms as are some radio personalities in Nashville with the Gill Interview they say it was a backhanded slap at them and their franchise lol.

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