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12 Contracts that killed hockey

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Old
12-20-2004, 08:51 AM
  #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by transplant99
Also you are dead wrong...again, no surprise.

Theodore signed his deal BEFORE Iginla did.
I'll admit I was wrong about Iginla signing before Theodore. When else have I been wrong?

So I'm wrong once and you're right for once.

You're still being brainwashed by the Alberta equivalents of Garrioch and Stevenson.

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12-20-2004, 09:05 AM
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hockey_Nut99
No I think Sakic belongs up there. Sather, that jacka**, gave him a huge contract and gave him a huuuuge signing bonus ontop. That really started escalating salaries everywhere. I don't see why they pretty much doubled his contract? I guess it was b/c he wasn't unrestricted and they had to do something mindboggling for Colorado not to match it.

I wonder how the Rangers would have faired if they got to keep Sakic? I don't know why but I think Sakic would have played great there. He doesn't seem to be the lazy type.
As much fun as it is trash Glen Sather, he was not the Rangers GM when the attempt was made to lure Joe Sakic to New York. It was Neil Smith who was responsible for that.

Sakic was a group 2 free agent at the time and the Rangers would have had to give up draft picks on top of the huge contract.

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12-20-2004, 09:17 AM
  #28
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Jagr's contract was more a symptom then the cause. Leonsis was excited about landing him and signed him to that whooper deal before he even stepped onto the ice as a Capital. I knew that was a mistake and Leonsis has even admitted that he forced his hand on McPhee to sign Jags to that contract. Another bad one for the Capitals is Kolzig's contract. At the time it seemed like a decent offer but the Caps were trying to get rid of him at the deadline last year and no one would bite.

I believe RFA's caused a lot of the salary issues we now face. (Carolina's bidding war on Federov)

John Flyer's list is more accurate this is the root cause IIRC - Joe Murphy - St. Louis - 1996 - this is the first instance of overpaying.


Last edited by EYEuhFRAYtee: 12-20-2004 at 09:26 AM.
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Old
12-20-2004, 09:19 AM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toonces
Yes, Lemieux shouldn't be attacked, he's done alot.

Didn't he try and sign at the league average a few seasons ago, and the NHLPA forced him to sign a larger contract? It was after he bought part of the Pens, but I don't remember any other details.

Perhaps somebody can fill in the blanks?

the first year Mario came back he played for the league average and the NHLPA threw a fit. But the NHLPA cannot tell Mario or any other player what salary to accept. The man is still playing for 5 million which is half of what he could be making on another team.

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12-20-2004, 09:44 AM
  #30
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Originally Posted by BlackRedGold
It's not stereotyping when you're only lumping everyone into the same category. I did not say all Albertans were misguided.

But there sure are a lot of them if the posters at Calgarypuck are any indication.
It's NOT stereotyping when you're only lumping everyone into the SAME category? Okay, what is it then? Just want to know so the ground rules are completely understandable in your world. Maybe you don't see the similarity to what you slammed me for, but its the exact same thing. You probably fail to see this because your hood is on backwards. The eye holes go in the front!

:lol

Did this article originate at Calgarypuck? What does Calgarypuck have to do with anything? Someone wrong you there and you have an axe to grind? Maybe take it there and take it up with who ever wronged you. But when you're here try and stick to the topic and defend your stance. I do not see how you can defend yourself when you attack the column and then use incorrect information to try and shoot it down. The author obviously had a well thoughtout premise and presented his paper trail. I don't think his place of origin has any impact on the quality of the article. If he had written it in New York or Toronto would that have made a difference? If he had written it in South Central Napean would that have made it more worthy? Try attacking the content and thought process, and try doing so with a paper trail of your own.


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12-20-2004, 09:50 AM
  #31
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Originally Posted by Hockey_Nut99
No I think Sakic belongs up there. Sather, that jacka**, gave him a huge contract and gave him a huuuuge signing bonus ontop. That really started escalating salaries everywhere.
Wow.....Sather being blamed when he wasnt even there.....tough crowd

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12-20-2004, 09:54 AM
  #32
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Originally Posted by deathbear
i don't care for the leafs, but all this *****ing and complaining and constant ragging of the buds is SO LAME. they're a good team, they run a great business, so they spend lots on players. they can afford to!

to go further, i don't see how any fan of hockey can truly "hate" an nhl team. it's all just so childish...

Better get used to it here. The Leafs are the most loved and hated team in hockey.

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Old
12-20-2004, 11:30 AM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by likea
the first year Mario came back he played for the league average and the NHLPA threw a fit. But the NHLPA cannot tell Mario or any other player what salary to accept. The man is still playing for 5 million which is half of what he could be making on another team.
The NHLPA's point (and it was a perfectly good one) is that as an owner, Lemieux has an inherent conflict of interest because he could conceivably try to use his own salary as a comparable which is unfair to the other players.

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Old
12-20-2004, 11:50 AM
  #34
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Originally Posted by Epsilon
The NHLPA's point (and it was a perfectly good one) is that as an owner, Lemieux has an inherent conflict of interest because he could conceivably try to use his own salary as a comparable which is unfair to the other players.
while they have a point

it doesn't matter

the NHLPA cannot tell anyone inclduing Mario what to pay himself or what to earn

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12-20-2004, 12:08 PM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Epsilon
The NHLPA's point (and it was a perfectly good one) is that as an owner, Lemieux has an inherent conflict of interest because he could conceivably try to use his own salary as a comparable which is unfair to the other players.
Ok, I just wanted clairfication, thanks. The merrits of this is not in contention for me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by likea
the NHLPA cannot tell anyone inclduing Mario what to pay himself or what to earn
Isn't that what they did? If not he'd still be playing at the league average.

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Old
12-20-2004, 12:27 PM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeytown9321
See, we need a salary cap so teams like Detroit can compete. The way Boston and Carolina throw money around ruins it for everybody else.
That might be the funniest sarcastic response to a printed story ever. It's definitely worth a multi-smiley response.

So:

:lol

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Old
12-20-2004, 12:51 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by Steve L
Fuuny how some non homer fans admitted they overpaid for the players. Everyone and his dog knows they severely overpaid for Belfour as noone else was interested.
Not sure what fuuny means, but I do know this: The Leafs paid Belfour exactly what they had to pay to keep him. If they hadn't the Ottawa Senators would have been all over him like Chris Falcone on a sundae. They also didn't pay anything they couldn't afford. The Leafs might as well have a license to print money considering they are the only team that seems to be able to make enough of it to afford their payroll!

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Old
12-20-2004, 12:58 PM
  #38
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Sundin - 9mil
Domi - 2mil
Marchment - 2mil
Belfour - 8.5mil
Roberts - 4.2mil
---------------------

how can anyone call those good contracts is beyond me. how anyone sees that as "running a good business" I also fail to see.

I don't hate the Leafs, I don't like them either, but I am pointing out bad contracts handed to over-the-hill players (all except Sundin).

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Old
12-20-2004, 01:04 PM
  #39
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Why isnt Bill Guerin on there? I love the guy but his contract is pretty f'd up. How about Tony Amonte, Kasparitus and DeVries? Aaron Miller?

That is an awesome article that proves the owners are to blame, not the players. Giving Holik a huge contract to settle the score over some yankees games or signing Lapointe to burn the Detroit owners is just pathetic rich men with huge egos and money to burn.


Last edited by Matt13: 12-20-2004 at 01:11 PM.
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Old
12-20-2004, 01:29 PM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Herbie Verstinks
Why isnt Bill Guerin on there? I love the guy but his contract is pretty f'd up. How about Tony Amonte, Kasparitus and DeVries? Aaron Miller?

That is an awesome article that proves the owners are to blame, not the players. Giving Holik a huge contract to settle the score over some yankees games or signing Lapointe to burn the Detroit owners is just pathetic rich men with huge egos and money to burn.

It also proves that owners doo need to be protected from themselves. Why should the other 28 owners suffer because two filthy rich meat heads get into an egocentric pissing match? With a cap, Lapointe is still making the scratch he deserves, or the Bruins are hurting even worse because of the move and salary space it takes up. The infortunate thing is that when you have some big egos with big check books things can spin out of control quickly. It did here and affected a whole industry in a negative way. The cap may not be perfect, but it does protect the industry from owners on an ego trip and protects it from the base collusion the players have in their favor.

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Old
12-20-2004, 01:57 PM
  #41
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Unfortunately, the Coyotes have been part of the problem in recent years, and are one of the teams the future CBA is supposed to protect. While signing Hull in the offseason is considered a major gaffe by most, it might work out for the Coyotes as he could turn out to be a draw to get people to notice the team.

Brian Savage's contract that has paid him over $3 million a season for like 3-4 years has severly hurt the team, and did nothing to help the market. Savage was a 15 goal, 45 point scorer that the Coyotes handed a fat contract to. After having an injury plagued career where he had more partial seasons that complete ones no less.

Tony Amonte was signed as an UFA to a 4-5 year contract that average about $4-5 million a season by the Coyotes. Amonte, a 20 goal scorer and 60 point man makes the cash when he's on the decline of his career.

Brian Boucher has been given multiple contracts spanning 2-3 years at over $2 million per season for a goaltender who has never started more than 45 games in a season. Boucher's contract was up this past offseason, and the Coyotes made the qualifying offer which has baffled me. Jim Carey had similar numbers, better, and won a Vezina but was driven out of the league.

Those are three contracts the Coyotes, or at least many fans, wish they could take back. While none of those contracts impacted other players, you can't say it's helped the market either.

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Old
12-20-2004, 02:05 PM
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toonces


Isn't that what they did? If not he'd still be playing at the league average.

no, after his first year Marios partners have taken a vote to decide what maio should or should not be paid. Mario does not sit in on this vote nor does he decide what he gets paid....CP and the owners decide

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Old
12-20-2004, 02:13 PM
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SerbianEagle

I don't hate the Leafs, I don't like them either, but I am pointing out bad contracts handed to over-the-hill players (all except Sundin).
Yep, you're the beacon of objectivity when it comes to the Leafs! http://www.hfboards.com/showpost.php?p=2250267&postcount=4 This is the second post in this thread where all you have done is mentioned is Leafs players.

Listen, if the Leafs don't give Belfour what he deserved under the old CBA, then the Ottawa Senators go after him and sign him for just as much, rather than pursuing Dom Hasek. The Leafs only did what they had to do, under the market conditions and to prevent him from being snagged by their chief rival.

Sundin? Market value! Christ Jason allison had a 9mil deal too! Bobby Holik got it. It was a fair price to pay under the old CBA; Marhcment and Domi were awful deals considering their limited value and how easily they could have been replaced cheaper; Khristich got less than the Bruins were told he was worth according to the league arbitrator and only had his career come to a huge thud in Toronto-- he was worth what he got when he was signed; Roberts is far from overpaid considering the old CBA and what he brings to the table.

And from your first post: Nieuwendyk took a pay cut to come to Toronto; Cujo signed for what was market value. Too bad for Edmonton.


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Old
12-20-2004, 03:08 PM
  #44
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While I agree that most Toronto deals aren't the worst deals in the league especially considering the Leafs make money, I have to say that Belfour was overpaid in his last contract as were Roberts and Nieuwendyk, let me explain.

Ottawa would never have signed Belfour to that contract because we couldn't afford to. We signed Hasek to a $2M deal plus incentives for a total of $6M if the Sens win the Cup.

Roberts and Nieuwendyk signed reasonable contracts under the old CBA however most UFAs have been left unsigned by teams precisely because the old CBA unnecessarily inflated salaries. JFJ got a bit scared and gave aging players a raise without good reason.

They didn't kill hockey by any stretch but they weren't the best deals either. The Leafs also played a part i the Holik contract by offering him $8.5M/year. They offered Cujo more money than he got in Detroit, thankfully Cujo preferred a new city over big bucks. You can bet that the Leafs have raised salaries simply by participating in the bidding for UFAs even if they didn't land all the UFAs they bidded for.

But again I stress that the Leafs make decisions according to their budget, which means they aren't irresponsible, and haven't been the worst team in terms of driving contracts up.

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Old
12-20-2004, 03:34 PM
  #45
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Yep, you're the beacon of objectivity when it comes to the Leafs! http://www.hfboards.com/showpost.php...67&postcount=4 This is the second post in this thread where all you have done is mentioned is Leafs players
Yes i only chose Leaf players because YOU called other teams out, while conveniently forgetting about the Leafs.

Those are bad contracts period, thats my opinion and I am not about to get into a pissing match with you.

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12-20-2004, 03:58 PM
  #46
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Originally Posted by SerbianEagle
Yes i only chose Leaf players because YOU called other teams out, while conveniently forgetting about the Leafs.
The article was not written by me for Slam Hockey, It was randy.sportak@calgarysun.com and not I taking the other teams to task for their awful deals! The Leafs didn't create the system, just played within it's guidelines.

Considering the contributions by Roberts, Nieuwendyk and Belfour they are hardly bad deals. I don't care if they are 27 or 47, they have proven they are valuable NHL contributors. Onmce again the age bias is reering it's head in an HF debate. Younger doesn't always equate better.

Also, as far as the Senators go, I have no doubt that they would have overlooked a beaten up, broken down Dominik Hasek who hasn't played a solid game in 3 years if Eddie Belfour had been available, even to the tune of 6 million a year guaranteed. Of course, they might have taken the cheap route, signed Hasek anyway and Belfour comes back to the Leafs and the Senators find that the Dom is a shell of his former self and find that they are out in the first or second round yet again. I just don't think Eugene Melnyk would have taken the risk if a better option was available.

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Old
12-20-2004, 04:04 PM
  #47
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BTW, after the Leafs signed Roberts, Nieuwendyk, and Belfour this past summer, they had spent about 500k less on the 3 than they had paid for their services last season.

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Old
12-20-2004, 05:34 PM
  #48
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what about paul kariya's holdout contract? the union pressured him to set a higher benchmark and he did it. the ducks were awful, and caved in at i think it was 7 mill a year. the ten percent raises off that contract led to him being let go last year, and any star player could use that contract as a comparable. i think it belongs on the top 10 list. i think no 1 has to be daigles three million. at the time, i think only gretzky and lemieux made more. hartford was forced to give pronger 2 mill cuz they needed him in the lineup. brian burke refused to pay pronger that much, and the owner of the whalers signed him himself - 2 years before selling the team. that one contract almost singlhandedly created the lockout of 94. no 1 on my list. never has there been a contract given to player who had done less. EVERYONE got paid off daigles deal, not just other rookies. i dont think holiks or lapointes touch this one. the other deals were mostly to big name guys, and that was the cost at the time - stupid as it was.

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Old
12-20-2004, 07:32 PM
  #49
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Originally Posted by Epsilon
The NHLPA's point (and it was a perfectly good one) is that as an owner, Lemieux has an inherent conflict of interest because he could conceivably try to use his own salary as a comparable which is unfair to the other players.
how can he use his salary as a comparable? when lemieux sign that contact, he was technically a UFA, and as stated by many pro-PA poster on this board, UFA's contract dont affect RFA's, also, since he is mario lemieux, nobody in the UFA market is going to compare themselves to him. so how does his contract becomes a problem?

 
Old
12-21-2004, 02:38 AM
  #50
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Originally Posted by SuperKarateMonkey
how can he use his salary as a comparable? when lemieux sign that contact, he was technically a UFA, and as stated by many pro-PA poster on this board, UFA's contract dont affect RFA's, also, since he is mario lemieux, nobody in the UFA market is going to compare themselves to him. so how does his contract becomes a problem?
I wish there was some sort of rebel in the future who was as good as Gretzky. A guy who was happy with about 4 million a year. That way nobody could ever ask for more than him. ALl it would take is one guy who ruled the league in numbers and was happy with an average salary. The Union would be up his a** all the time

 
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