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Sekera was the Sabres BEST defensemen

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05-30-2012, 09:41 AM
  #176
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jame View Post
It absolutely is taken into account

it's fun to watch you attempt to make the "offensive" role into the more difficult role to play... that's pretty funny stuff

Going into this season, Ruff talked a lot about needing a shut down pair. Many assumed that meant they needed to find someone to pair with Myers... so along came Regehr. They tried them together early and for whatever reason, they broke it up. Soon they put Regehr and Sekera together, and that was the Shut down pairing.

there is not a more difficult role in all of hockey, then the one Sekera played this past year
Which role is most difficult is obviously dependent on the player. Which role does RR think is easier?

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05-30-2012, 09:49 AM
  #177
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Originally Posted by Jame View Post


id break out some stats on offensive zone starts / off zone finish.... but i know stats isnt really your thing.:
You actually think this helps quantify how often he joined the rush?

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05-30-2012, 09:57 AM
  #178
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Originally Posted by stokes84 View Post
You actually think this helps quantify how often he joined the rush?
yes, I think the fact that he has the highest Def Zone start % AND the highest Off Zone Finish % is indicative of a defensemen who rushes the puck A LOT. ESPECIALLY when Robyn Regehr is your partner.

Skating ability is one of Sekera's best skills. He's an EXCELLENT Skater. How do you manage a team high offensive zone finish %, while starting the most in the defensive zone... i can tell you, its not likely that you end up with that type of statistic by "occasionally" rushing the puck

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05-30-2012, 10:00 AM
  #179
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Originally Posted by struckbyaparkedcar View Post
My one issue with Jame's arguments here is his interchangeable use of "shutdown pair" and "top pair." To me, a top pair is the first option in both key offensive and defensive situations (Sieds-Chara, Suter-Weber, Coli-Pietro, etc) and a shutdown pair is obviously more limited to important defensive matchups (Hamhuis-Bieksa, Allen-Gleason, Alzner-Carlson).

That being said, with how Ruff coaches, the shutdown pairing is the most important pairing because Lindy doesn't really use a checking line (Gaustad in his own zone before the trade, Pominville strength on strength otherwise) and Sekera's success as a shutdown defenseman allowed Myers and Ehrhoff to play more focused offensive roles (Myers getting back on track/being dominant against the weakest competition of his career).
and i've mentioned before that Ruff usually does not have the traditional "top pair" as you described it.

Lydman-Tallinder = Regehr-Sekera
Campbell-Spacek = Ehrhoff-Myers (yes, i know that isnt a pair, but they are both given ample ozone time)

When Ruff had Tallinder-Myers, that was the only time he ever had a "both ways" top pair.

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05-30-2012, 10:01 AM
  #180
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Originally Posted by stokes84 View Post
Which role is most difficult is obviously dependent on the player. Which role does RR think is easier?
well sure, i bet Ryan Miller thinks Cody McCormick has the most difficult role. Good thing it doesn't matter what the players think


"dependant on the player".... good one....

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05-30-2012, 10:04 AM
  #181
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jame View Post
and i've mentioned before that Ruff usually does not have the traditional "top pair" as you described it.

Lydman-Tallinder = Regehr-Sekera
Campbell-Spacek = Ehrhoff-Myers (yes, i know that isnt a pair, but they are both given ample ozone time)

When Ruff had Tallinder-Myers, that was the only time he ever had a "both ways" top pair.
Definitely an accurate assessment.

And considering that Myers played Sekera's role at the beginning of the season and got yanked from it, I'm not sure how you can argue that his end of the season role was more difficult than what Rej did...

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05-30-2012, 10:14 AM
  #182
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jame View Post
yes, I think the fact that he has the highest Def Zone start % AND the highest Off Zone Finish % is indicative of a defensemen who rushes the puck A LOT. ESPECIALLY when Robyn Regehr is your partner.

Skating ability is one of Sekera's best skills. He's an EXCELLENT Skater. How do you manage a team high offensive zone finish %, while starting the most in the defensive zone... i can tell you, its not likely that you end up with that type of statistic by "occasionally" rushing the puck
How many offensive zone finishes come from a dump in? Probably most of them, considering that is the easiest time to finish a shift. Like I said, completely irrelevant.

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05-30-2012, 10:16 AM
  #183
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So then how are we explaining away Sekera's high goals-for?

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05-30-2012, 10:26 AM
  #184
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If we go back further, Ruff used Warrener-McKee as the shutdown pair as well. He likes to have a defense-first pairing and that (at least based on the half-season or so they were together) was Sekera-Regehr. And defensively, they were very, very good.

Now if the collective slumps for most of the bottom 6 disappear and they get more than 20 goals out of what is their "third" line this season, the GF/GA numbers will likely shift in their favor too. That's an area of concern and potential improvement for this season -- that of the secondary scoring and what expectation they should/could have for returning checking line guys like Gerbe, Kaleta, and McCormick who combined for 28 goals two years ago and just 12 this past season.

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05-30-2012, 10:27 AM
  #185
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Originally Posted by stokes84 View Post
How many offensive zone finishes come from a dump in? Probably most of them, considering that is the easiest time to finish a shift. Like I said, completely irrelevant.
that would've been a good point....IF... a dump and change wasn't counted as a Neutral Zone Finish (not an offensive zone finish)

thank you, try again...

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05-30-2012, 10:54 AM
  #186
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Originally Posted by Jame View Post
that would've been a good point....IF... a dump and change wasn't counted as a Neutral Zone Finish (not an offensive zone finish)

thank you, try again...
Fair enough, but your stats still don't represent what we are talking about, and I doubt the stat exists. If you can tell me that Sekera was beating opposition forwards up the ice to create as many odd man rushes as Myers and Ehrhoff, then good for you. I don't think he was remotely close in this aspect, and I think that it effects these numbers which don't take the risks into account.

I have stated a couple of times in this thread that Myers and Ehrhoff were better because they had more impact on the team; the teams entire style changed without them, whereas without Sekera there was very little change. Do you at least agree with that?

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05-30-2012, 11:08 AM
  #187
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Originally Posted by stokes84 View Post
Fair enough, but your stats still don't represent what we are talking about, and I doubt the stat exists. If you can tell me that Sekera was beating opposition forwards up the ice to create as many odd man rushes as Myers and Ehrhoff, then good for you. I don't think he was remotely close in this aspect, and I think that it effects these numbers which don't take the risks into account.

I have stated a couple of times in this thread that Myers and Ehrhoff were better because they had more impact on the team; the teams entire style changed without them, whereas without Sekera there was very little change. Do you at least agree with that?
the stat is only a tool.

no, i don't agree with your elementary assessment.

Ehrhoff and Myers did not have more impact on the team. Again, I will use the past as a comparison. Did Campbell-Spacek have more of an impact on the team then Lydamn-Tallinder? Did Zhitnik-Wooley, have a bigger impact then McKEE-Warrener?

I think you are wrong. I think you over value one aspect of the blueliners, and underrate the other. I think both roles are closer to equal, but would give the edge to the role of shutting down the oppositions top lines, playing more in your own zone, etc.

the team was better with Myers, Sekera, Ehrhoff, and Regehr. ALL of them, taking any one of them out of the equation weakens the team. Taking any 2 of them out at the same time, severely hinders the teams ability.

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05-30-2012, 11:20 AM
  #188
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Why do people argue so much on these forums? Also, the only time someone responds to a post is it someone else flamed it or contradicted it. Seems quite childish IMO.

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05-30-2012, 11:32 AM
  #189
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Originally Posted by Awwufelloff View Post
Why do people argue so much on these forums? Also, the only time someone responds to a post is it someone else flamed it or contradicted it. Seems quite childish IMO.
um... welcome to the internet

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05-30-2012, 11:55 AM
  #190
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Originally Posted by Awwufelloff View Post
Why do people argue so much on these forums? Also, the only time someone responds to a post is it someone else flamed it or contradicted it. Seems quite childish IMO.
We're debating the topic. It's kinda the fun if it. If we all agreed, there would be nothing to talk about. Flaming gets old, but since it never really has any meaning, ignore it and take the point that is being given. That's how I proceed on these boards, but you may not want to take my advice seeing as I get flamed more than most around here .

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05-30-2012, 12:08 PM
  #191
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Originally Posted by stokes84 View Post
@punkr0x

Just wanted to point out that you said Sekera is clearly ahead of Myers. What does that mean? On the depth chart? In terms of talent? In terms of impact on the team? And I mean last year, because I don't see him being ahead of Myers in any of these.
In terms of overall performance this past year.

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05-30-2012, 12:49 PM
  #192
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um... welcome to the internet
Can't we all be friends and just get along? Especially fans of the same freaking team!

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05-30-2012, 01:02 PM
  #193
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Originally Posted by Jame View Post
yes, I think the fact that he has the highest Def Zone start % AND the highest Off Zone Finish % is indicative of a defensemen who rushes the puck A LOT. ESPECIALLY when Robyn Regehr is your partner.

Skating ability is one of Sekera's best skills. He's an EXCELLENT Skater. How do you manage a team high offensive zone finish %, while starting the most in the defensive zone... i can tell you, its not likely that you end up with that type of statistic by "occasionally" rushing the puck
The thing about Jame love fest is, there are five players on the ice and all of Sekera´s states have nothing to do with the rest of the team, just Sekera.

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05-30-2012, 01:07 PM
  #194
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Originally Posted by BuiltTagonTough View Post
So youre admitting in this post that you think Sekera had a career year, Myers had an off year, and Ehrhoff had a poor year.

Making Sekera our best defenseman LAST SEASON. Which is the entire premise of the thread.

So what are we arguing about?
Dude you are very funny....very funny.

A player can have a bad year and still be better then the player who had a career year. Think about your statement and maybe delete it.

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05-30-2012, 01:13 PM
  #195
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Originally Posted by stokes84 View Post
100% correct. This entire thread is skewed by the different roles they play and the failure to take that into account. Myers and Ehrhoff are asked to jump into the play while Sekera did it far less. Of course their d stats are going to suffer. If Sekera were to play a similar role his stats wouldn't be as good.
See this is another thing Jame will refuse to listen to. You hit it dead one In Ruff´s system defenceman like Myers and Ehrhoff take a bigger risk because of their offensive ability thus getting caught out of position more but is acceptable in Lindy Ruffs eyes. There defensive stats may slide a little because Ruff wants them to take chances and join the rush but Jame will tell you otherwise. Stats make a player not his actual play.

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05-30-2012, 01:24 PM
  #196
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Originally Posted by heartsabres View Post
The thing about Jame love fest is, there are five players on the ice and all of Sekera´s states have nothing to do with the rest of the team, just Sekera.
so you concede that Myers/Ehrhoff better offensive stats stem from the other skaters on the ice relative to the high % of offensive zone starts they get?

if ever you decide to start a sentence with "the thing about jame..." make sure they next words you type are "is that he uses data to back up his opinions"

otherwise, don't bother

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05-30-2012, 01:25 PM
  #197
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Originally Posted by heartsabres View Post
Dude you are very funny....very funny.

A player can have a bad year and still be better then the player who had a career year. Think about your statement and maybe delete it.
THAT DOES NOT CHANGE THE FACT THAT SEKERA WAS OUR BEST DEFENSEMAN LAST SEASON.

I don't understand why this concept is so difficult for some to grasp. Sekera is not our best defensemen, but based on his great campaign relative to Myers' and Ehrhoff's average ones, he was our best in 11-12.

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05-30-2012, 01:34 PM
  #198
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Originally Posted by Awwufelloff View Post
Why do people argue so much on these forums? Also, the only time someone responds to a post is it someone else flamed it or contradicted it. Seems quite childish IMO.
Meh...I don't think anyone here takes it personal. Just passing by time until next season.

Sekera was the Sabres best defenseman. It's tough to find a correlation between injuries and impact, because our defense took so many injuries. Losing half of your top 4 will hinder any defensive unit.

Myers wasn't nearly as good as sekera this year. Ehrhoff was very good, but Sekera was more consistent.

How about we bring up the old GBUs, and see whose name was in the good category the most. Sekera was being praised a lot more than any other Sabre.

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05-30-2012, 02:08 PM
  #199
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Originally Posted by Beechsack View Post
I have the same problems with these ratings as I do with the higher end baseball metrics.

When you start taking derivative statistics, then performing additional transformations and derivations, you start to lose all value and meaning.
Eh, that's debatable especially with the baseball stats. Maybe it's because I have my degree in statistics so I have a better grasp on them than most but I can't imagine the stats being used so far out of context that they have no value and meaning. They're not the be-all and end-all but they do tell most of the story.

To the thread, I've said what I've needed to and Jame is arguing our side very well. It seems like it's more of a reading comprehension problem for those in opposition than anything.

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05-30-2012, 02:09 PM
  #200
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Originally Posted by punkr0x View Post
In terms of overall performance this past year.
Take a standard stat-line and Ehrhoff and Myers both are much more productive than Sekera. That's not entirely fair to Sekera because of his role, but it is important especially for a team that couldn't score. Jame's advanced stats need to be considered, but they only part of a much broader conversation. Wins/losses, TOI, +/-, and standard stat-line still hold value. So to say that Sekera was CLEARLY ahead of Myers is wrong IMO.

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