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Sekera was the Sabres BEST defensemen

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Old
05-30-2012, 03:10 PM
  #201
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ummm NO, I concede they have high offensive zone starts because Lindy Ruff believes they are the two best defenceman and give us the best chance at winning.
\thread

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05-30-2012, 03:17 PM
  #202
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Quote:
Originally Posted by heartsabres View Post
Dude you are very funny....very funny.

A player can have a bad year and still be better then the player who had a career year. Think about your statement and maybe delete it.
Yes, they can.

But the fact that you think a bad year from Ehrhoff and C year from Myers is still better than a so far career year from Sekera is just about as funny to me as you thought my post was.

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05-30-2012, 03:20 PM
  #203
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Originally Posted by stokes84 View Post
Take a standard stat-line and Ehrhoff and Myers both are much more productive than Sekera. That's not entirely fair to Sekera because of his role, but it is important especially for a team that couldn't score. Jame's advanced stats need to be considered, but they only part of a much broader conversation. Wins/losses, TOI, +/-, and standard stat-line still hold value. So to say that Sekera was CLEARLY ahead of Myers is wrong IMO.
The thing is the standard stat line is much more telling for offensive success than defensive. Even +/- is hugely predicated on offensive success.

The advanced statistics are just as valuable as the standard stat line andnin some cases moreso, because the standard stat line just isnt comprehensive enough.

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05-30-2012, 03:22 PM
  #204
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Originally Posted by heartsabres View Post
The thing about Jame love fest is, there are five players on the ice and all of Sekera´s states have nothing to do with the rest of the team, just Sekera.
Although this comment was mostly a shot a Jame, it has a nugget of truth. Many of the hockey metrics make arbitrary assumptions that don't make a lot of sense, and they are 3 to 4 levels derived further from that.

Such things work in baseball because the outcome a given play can be traced through the actions of each individual participant independently. The players directly involved in the play are credited or demerited appropriately based on what they did or didn't do, and nobody else on the field at the time is affected positively or negatively.

In hockey, a coverage mistake by a forward could (and often does) impact the base statistics of a defenseman, especially in the +/- category. When you're STARTING with a number that is flawed, deriving numbers FROM that flawed numbers tells you nothing. Think garbage in, garbage out, and that's what's really going on with a lot of these stats.

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05-30-2012, 03:27 PM
  #205
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BuiltTagonTough View Post
The thing is the standard stat line is much more telling for offensive success than defensive. Even +/- is hugely predicated on offensive success.

The advanced statistics are just as valuable as the standard stat line andnin some cases moreso, because the standard stat line just isnt comprehensive enough.
Agreed. That's why I said they both should be considered as part of broader conversation. Jame did a good job presenting Sekera's merits, but the merits of the other players have been mostly ignored in this thread.

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05-30-2012, 03:29 PM
  #206
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beechsack View Post
Although this comment was mostly a shot a Jame, it has a nugget of truth. Many of the hockey metrics make arbitrary assumptions that don't make a lot of sense, and they are 3 to 4 levels derived further from that.

Such things work in baseball because the outcome a given play can be traced through the actions of each individual participant independently. The players directly involved in the play are credited or demerited appropriately based on what they did or didn't do, and nobody else on the field at the time is affected positively or negatively.

In hockey, a coverage mistake by a forward could (and often does) impact the base statistics of a defenseman, especially in the +/- category. When you're STARTING with a number that is flawed, deriving numbers FROM that flawed numbers tells you nothing. Think garbage in, garbage out, and that's what's really going on with a lot of these stats.
True, but on the other side youre just providing opinion with nothing to back it up.

"Ryan Miller is the best goalie in the world"

Opinion, no facts to back it up or tear it down without using stats.

And on the same side of the coin Sekeras stats may be biased because of who he played with but so were Myers and Ehrhoffs as well. You cant use the argument and then throw out points and +/- as an indicator because the same argument applies.

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05-30-2012, 03:35 PM
  #207
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Originally Posted by heartsabres View Post
ummm NO, I concede they have high offensive zone starts because Lindy Ruff believes they are the two best defenceman and give us the best chance at winning.
\thread
Typically, guys getting offensive zone stats have 1) better offensive zone abilities than their contemporaries or 2) are being shielded from the defensive zone responsibilities. Sekera got harder starts as a defenseman -- in the d-zone -- and finished more in the offensive zone, meaning his five-some moved the puck up the ice and ended play in the other team's end most often of the regular d-men.

O-zone starts are easier minutes and tend to produce more scoring chances and thus more points -- for example it was part of how Vancouver pumped Hodgson's pre-trade production in January by giving him a lot of offensive zone starts and popping him out there against lesser lines. Gillis talked of "building his value", that's the way it can be done. It was also what Buffalo did with Gragnani most of the year here -- he got easier minutes in easier situations.

Ruff has consistently used two defensemen as a pair in a shutdown role throughout his tenure. They get the d-zone starts, they get the higher scoring competition to play against. Regehr-Sekera were that duo once united and they did extremely well at it.

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05-30-2012, 03:36 PM
  #208
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I agree with the general premise of this thread that Sekera is better than he gets credit for.

I simply doubt the veracity of these specific derived stats that are built from stats with poorly defined meaning to begin with, that's all. I've long had issue with these stats, well before this discussion.

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05-30-2012, 03:40 PM
  #209
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beechsack View Post
I agree with the general premise of this thread that Sekera is better than he gets credit for.

I simply doubt the veracity of these specific derived stats that are built from stats with poorly defined meaning to begin with, that's all. I've long had issue with these stats, well before this discussion.
So thats what a well reasoned disagreement looks like. Huh.

Agree that stats are only a tool and not always a perfect one. There just arent really better ways to do it.

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05-30-2012, 03:43 PM
  #210
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Originally Posted by BuiltTagonTough View Post
Yes, they can.

But the fact that you think a bad year from Ehrhoff and C year from Myers is still better than a so far career year from Sekera is just about as funny to me as you thought my post was.
I dont know if you are serious or joking or dont understand.

C year from Myers and an A year from Sekera I would still take Myers 7 days a week and twice on Sunday.

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05-30-2012, 03:46 PM
  #211
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beechsack View Post
I agree with the general premise of this thread that Sekera is better than he gets credit for.

I simply doubt the veracity of these specific derived stats that are built from stats with poorly defined meaning to begin with, that's all. I've long had issue with these stats, well before this discussion.
The stats are left to be interpeted any way you want to and the fact that Jame completely ingnores, +-, TOI, Goals, Assists, total points means he has minipulated the statistics to suit his agenda. If you want to present your case then present all the statistics not just the ones that suit your argument. But hey, its the internet.

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05-30-2012, 03:49 PM
  #212
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Originally Posted by Chainshot View Post
Typically, guys getting offensive zone stats have 1) better offensive zone abilities than their contemporaries or 2) are being shielded from the defensive zone responsibilities. Sekera got harder starts as a defenseman -- in the d-zone -- and finished more in the offensive zone, meaning his five-some moved the puck up the ice and ended play in the other team's end most often of the regular d-men.

O-zone starts are easier minutes and tend to produce more scoring chances and thus more points -- for example it was part of how Vancouver pumped Hodgson's pre-trade production in January by giving him a lot of offensive zone starts and popping him out there against lesser lines. Gillis talked of "building his value", that's the way it can be done. It was also what Buffalo did with Gragnani most of the year here -- he got easier minutes in easier situations.

Ruff has consistently used two defensemen as a pair in a shutdown role throughout his tenure. They get the d-zone starts, they get the higher scoring competition to play against. Regehr-Sekera were that duo once united and they did extremely well at it.
So what you are saying is you start your crappier players in the o-zone to hide there defensive deficiencies? Come on now. Lets keep it with the sabres. Ehrhoff and Myers got more starts because they are better players

That does not make them the best and there are three forwards on that line also playing defensively. Is there not?

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05-30-2012, 03:49 PM
  #213
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Originally Posted by heartsabres View Post
I dont know if you are serious or joking or dont understand.

C year from Myers and an A year from Sekera I would still take Myers 7 days a week and twice on Sunday.
You are still missing the argument. Nobody is saying that they would take Myers over Sekera.

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05-30-2012, 03:50 PM
  #214
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Originally Posted by BuiltTagonTough View Post
So thats what a well reasoned disagreement looks like. Huh.

Agree that stats are only a tool and not always a perfect one. There just arent really better ways to do it.
I try.

IMO, for team sports like hockey, football, soccer, etc, stats must be combined with visual observation. There is too much variance where someone away from the thrust of a play could allow something to happen somewhere else that affects the stats of a teammate.

Basically, on point of the thread, I'm not willing to agree that Sekera was the BEST defenseman on the team last year based on these numbers alone. He was very good player who performed very well in many ways.

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05-30-2012, 03:50 PM
  #215
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Originally Posted by heartsabres View Post
So what you are saying is you start your crappier players in the o-zone to hide there defensive deficiencies? Come on now. Lets keep it with the sabres. Ehrhoff and Myers got more starts because they are better players.
They got more offensive zone starts because they're better players?

Why did Sekera get more defensive zone starts (assuming), then? Because he's a lesser player?

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05-30-2012, 04:00 PM
  #216
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Loods View Post
THAT DOES NOT CHANGE THE FACT THAT SEKERA WAS OUR BEST DEFENSEMAN LAST SEASON.

I don't understand why this concept is so difficult for some to grasp. Sekera is not our MOST TALENTED defensemen, but based on his great campaign relative to Myers' and Ehrhoff's average ones, he was our best in 11-12.

I just made one minor correction.

I don't see why it's so hard for some.

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05-30-2012, 04:02 PM
  #217
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Quote:
Originally Posted by heartsabres View Post
So what you are saying is you start your crappier players in the o-zone to hide there defensive deficiencies? Come on now. Lets keep it with the sabres. Ehrhoff and Myers got more starts because they are better players

That does not make them the best and there are three forwards on that line also playing defensively. Is there not?
Hoff and Myers got more O-zone starts because their pairings play better offensively than Regehr/Sekera.

Regehr/Sekera got more D-zone starts b/c they were playing better defensive hockey than any of the other 4.

Not that difficult to figure out.

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05-30-2012, 04:08 PM
  #218
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Originally Posted by heartsabres View Post
I dont know if you are serious or joking or dont understand.

C year from Myers and an A year from Sekera I would still take Myers 7 days a week and twice on Sunday.
In a career? Hell yes I take Myers all the time.

Last year though, and last year only, the 'A' we got from Sekera was better than the 'C' we got from Myers.

Nobody is saying they would take Sekera over Myers longterm. Nobody.

I understand just fine.

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05-30-2012, 04:28 PM
  #219
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Quote:
Originally Posted by heartsabres View Post
So what you are saying is you start your crappier players in the o-zone to hide there defensive deficiencies? Come on now.
It's something that is done, and by more than just Ruff.

Quote:
Originally Posted by heartsabres View Post
Lets keep it with the sabres. Ehrhoff and Myers got more starts because they are better players
Their performance defensively wasn't on par with Sekera. It's actually a good thing to have -- if Myers and/or Ehrhoff improve their play in their own zone while maintaining their offensive output, the team will have fewer goals scored against and ultimately, that's going to lead to more wins.

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05-30-2012, 04:34 PM
  #220
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Originally Posted by Loods View Post
You are still missing the argument. Nobody is saying that they would take Myers over Sekera.
am I


In which situation on the ice would you rather have Sekera over Myers?

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05-30-2012, 04:35 PM
  #221
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Quote:
Originally Posted by heartsabres View Post
ummm NO, I concede they have high offensive zone starts because Lindy Ruff believes they are the two best defenceman and give us the best chance at winning.
\thread
weird that you place such a high value on offensive zone starts and such a low value on defensive zone starts... when debating DEFENSEMEN

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05-30-2012, 04:36 PM
  #222
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Originally Posted by thefifagod View Post
Eh, that's debatable especially with the baseball stats. Maybe it's because I have my degree in statistics so I have a better grasp on them than most but I can't imagine the stats being used so far out of context that they have no value and meaning. They're not the be-all and end-all but they do tell most of the story.

To the thread, I've said what I've needed to and Jame is arguing our side very well. It seems like it's more of a reading comprehension problem for those in opposition than anything.
It does seem to be a combination of reading comprehension and basic hockey values.

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05-30-2012, 04:38 PM
  #223
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This isn't a "choose one, Myers or Sekera" situation. We have both of them and they are both going to be here for a while. Everyone seems to agree Myers is a top asset on this team, almost untradeable. Yet Sekera, who played against tougher competition and was second in +/- per 60 among our defensemen, at half of Myers cap hit, is dismissed as having a "career year." Despite maintaining this high level of play for two straight seasons. These are both guys to build around, and no one in our system is in a position to replace either of them on the depth chart. I don't understand the "choose one" mentality. Choose both.

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05-30-2012, 04:39 PM
  #224
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stokes84 View Post
Take a standard stat-line and Ehrhoff and Myers both are much more productive than Sekera. That's not entirely fair to Sekera because of his role, but it is important especially for a team that couldn't score. Jame's advanced stats need to be considered, but they only part of a much broader conversation. Wins/losses, TOI, +/-, and standard stat-line still hold value. So to say that Sekera was CLEARLY ahead of Myers is wrong IMO.
"i cobbled my opinion together from some very basic stats that lack context and depth... so i think those stats should be held in equal or greater value since they support my shallow opinion that lacks context."

Quote:
Originally Posted by heartsabres View Post
I dont know if you are serious or joking or dont understand.

C year from Myers and an A year from Sekera I would still take Myers 7 days a week and twice on Sunday.


Quote:
Originally Posted by heartsabres View Post
The stats are left to be interpeted any way you want to and the fact that Jame completely ingnores, +-, TOI, Goals, Assists, total points means he has minipulated the statistics to suit his agenda. If you want to present your case then present all the statistics not just the ones that suit your argument. But hey, its the internet.
i represented all those stats within the context of role and avg ice time...

i literally presented ALL of the stats... you just don't like them. So you continue to ignore them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beechsack View Post
I try.

IMO, for team sports like hockey, football, soccer, etc, stats must be combined with visual observation. There is too much variance where someone away from the thrust of a play could allow something to happen somewhere else that affects the stats of a teammate.

Basically, on point of the thread, I'm not willing to agree that Sekera was the BEST defenseman on the team last year based on these numbers alone. He was very good player who performed very well in many ways.
yea, this line of reasoning is usually for those who find that the stats dont support their "visual observation"...

but hey, as long as you dont plan on bringing stats to a debate on this board ever again...

Quote:
Originally Posted by heartsabres View Post
am I


In which situation on the ice would you rather have Sekera over Myers?
last season, Lindy Ruff preferred Sekera over Myers in defensive zone situations... but hey, what does that guy know.


Last edited by Chainshot: 05-30-2012 at 05:04 PM.
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05-30-2012, 04:57 PM
  #225
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7 out of the last 8 posts

seriously stop having such terrible opinions HS

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