HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Western Conference > Pacific Division > Calgary Flames
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

Calgary-Tampa

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
05-28-2012, 01:28 AM
  #26
Volica
150 lbs of Hockey
 
Volica's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,526
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheGleninator View Post
Wideman? The guy was a goat for the Capitals he made defensive made after defensive mistake. I would take the "soft" defenseman who is good at defense mediocre at offense over the other one.
Season Team Lge GP G A Pts PIM +/-
2011-12 Calgary Flames NHL 82 5 24 29 26 -21

Were we watching the same guy suit up for Calgary? This is coming from someone who I wouldn't say likes Jay, but definitely not a hater, in fact mostly when talking hockey with friends; I try to defend the guy the best I can.

But from time to time, we have to admit when we backed a lemon, and in Calgary (note Calgary) so far he's been nothing near a first pairing d-man we expected. If his contract was 4.5 - 5.2 million, I wouldn't actually have any issue with Bouwmeester... but the digits he got... I wanted more.
In Calgary we've needed a #1 Center for YEARS now; note I am not backing this trade what-so-ever (I don't want Vinny, he's slowing down, and his contract is ridiculous)... But at one point of time Calgary had (at that time) 3 guys who were considered top 2 D-men (Jbo, RR & Dion), and currently we have nothing to show for having lost two of them. Although the team would be worse off defensively (I can agree that some games JBo steps up, super active stick, great body positioning) I think that since he's not a top pair guy in Calgary, he could be replaced by a 3-4 guy and letting Gio (who in my opinion is a perfect #3 Dman) take over a more vs. top line role.

Just my opinion.

But to be perfectly honest, take a look at this:
http://capgeek.com/leaders.php?type=...ion=D&limit=25

Looking at the top 25 guys, you're scratching your head wondering how some of these guys got these deals.

Volica is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-28-2012, 01:35 AM
  #27
TheHudlinator
Registered User
 
TheHudlinator's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Victoria,BC
Country: Canada
Posts: 19,953
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Double Dion View Post
I have no idea what you're talking about. Dale Hunter must be famous for playing defensive goats on the shutdown pairing for 25 minutes a night then hey? Wideman had higher corsi numbers than JBo and a much better +/-. All stats say he's the much better defender and Dale Hunter demands defensive accountability as Ovechkin being glued to the pine in 3rd period leads indicates.
Wideman was the #5 defenseman in Washington getting 20 minutes a night in the playoffs and 3 minutes of that was pp. +/- is a pretty garbage stat as it doesn't indicate whos fault the goal was. I wouldn't do a Jbo for a Wideman switch at all.

TheHudlinator is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-28-2012, 02:39 AM
  #28
Calculon
unholy acting talent
 
Calculon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Country: Canada
Posts: 6,671
vCash: 1000
Wideman is awful defensively and anyone who has actually watched him play or followed his career over the years would attest to that. Bruins fans couldn't get rid of him fast enough, a fact that Panthers fans would share as well. Most people think that Green is poor defensively even if he's force offensively; Wideman wishes he had Green's defensive acumen. He's essentially M.A. Bergeron but better offensively. But of course, one kind of has to actually watch games and not just read off stats to understand that.

Quote:
Dennis Wideman was often criticized for his play during the Washington Capitals‘ first-round series against the Boston Bruins. He was on the ice for eight of the Bruins‘ 13 even-strength goals and was considered one of the goats of the series.
April 27th, 2012

Calculon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-28-2012, 04:01 AM
  #29
Medium Rare*
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 3,065
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Miokid View Post
Season Team Lge GP G A Pts PIM +/-
2011-12 Calgary Flames NHL 82 5 24 29 26 -21

Were we watching the same guy suit up for Calgary? This is coming from someone who I wouldn't say likes Jay, but definitely not a hater, in fact mostly when talking hockey with friends; I try to defend the guy the best I can.

But from time to time, we have to admit when we backed a lemon, and in Calgary (note Calgary) so far he's been nothing near a first pairing d-man we expected. If his contract was 4.5 - 5.2 million, I wouldn't actually have any issue with Bouwmeester... but the digits he got... I wanted more.
In Calgary we've needed a #1 Center for YEARS now; note I am not backing this trade what-so-ever (I don't want Vinny, he's slowing down, and his contract is ridiculous)... But at one point of time Calgary had (at that time) 3 guys who were considered top 2 D-men (Jbo, RR & Dion), and currently we have nothing to show for having lost two of them. Although the team would be worse off defensively (I can agree that some games JBo steps up, super active stick, great body positioning) I think that since he's not a top pair guy in Calgary, he could be replaced by a 3-4 guy and letting Gio (who in my opinion is a perfect #3 Dman) take over a more vs. top line role.

Just my opinion.

But to be perfectly honest, take a look at this:
http://capgeek.com/leaders.php?type=...ion=D&limit=25

Looking at the top 25 guys, you're scratching your head wondering how some of these guys got these deals.
+/- doesn't prove anything. by that form of logic Brent Sopel is one of the best defensemen of our generation.

Medium Rare* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-28-2012, 11:18 AM
  #30
Northern Heat
Registered User
 
Northern Heat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 436
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Miokid View Post
Yeah. Minus 21, 5 goals, twenty some odd points, with a six million dollar+ contract. Whew can't replace them stats! Also his tough to play against ability is through the roof! Opponents fear when #4 hits the ice!
But look beyond the stats! Watch him when he's on the ice, his play away from the puck etc. You can't just base his play on his numbers. I think he is also victim of the Sutter system PLUS he plays so many minutes on a non-scoring team his +/- isn't going to be stellar. Not to mention he plays majority of PK where he won't be able to stop everyone.

Northern Heat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-28-2012, 11:20 AM
  #31
Kitsy
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 189
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Northern Heat View Post
But look beyond the stats! Watch him when he's on the ice, his play away from the puck etc. You can't just base his play on his numbers. I think he is also victim of the Sutter system PLUS he plays so many minutes on a non-scoring team his +/- isn't going to be stellar. Not to mention he plays majority of PK where he won't be able to stop everyone.
PK doesn't get factored into your +/-.

Kitsy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-28-2012, 11:24 AM
  #32
Northern Neighbour
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Ottawa, Ontario
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,724
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Calculon View Post
Wideman is awful defensively and anyone who has actually watched him play or followed his career over the years would attest to that. Bruins fans couldn't get rid of him fast enough, a fact that Panthers fans would share as well. Most people think that Green is poor defensively even if he's force offensively; Wideman wishes he had Green's defensive acumen. He's essentially M.A. Bergeron but better offensively. But of course, one kind of has to actually watch games and not just read off stats to understand that.



April 27th, 2012
I don't think Wideman is a good fit in Calgary. The Flames have enough offensive defenceman; they need more two-way guys and at least one physical, stay-at-home type. Wideman, as you mentioned, is an offensive defenceman. He's extremely inconsistent and can be a big liability in the team's own end.

Northern Neighbour is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-28-2012, 05:37 PM
  #33
Medium Rare*
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 3,065
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Northern Heat View Post
But look beyond the stats! Watch him when he's on the ice, his play away from the puck etc. You can't just base his play on his numbers. I think he is also victim of the Sutter system PLUS he plays so many minutes on a non-scoring team his +/- isn't going to be stellar. Not to mention he plays majority of PK where he won't be able to stop everyone.
you are right for the most part, except PK doesn't affect +/-. But playing against other teams top lines every single night will kill your +/- when you are on one of the lowest scoring teams in the league.

Bouwmeester is also incredibly smart when he is on the ice. I have been living out of town so I haven't been able to see many games in person the past few years but I managed to see quite a few this year and his awareness when on the ice was astonishing. He has the ability to see plays developing which is why you don't see him get caught making bad pinches and he seems to be the only player with an awareness of how many bodies are on the ice. I don't know how many times I saw Bouwmeester almost dive into the bench when another guy on the ice botched a line change.

Medium Rare* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-28-2012, 06:24 PM
  #34
MarkGio
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Country: Canada
Posts: 10,596
vCash: 500
I've watched probably 70 Flames games this year, as I get Sportsnet Flames, West, TNS and CBC, and I think Bouwmeester's game extends beyond his numbers. But I think all of our player's numbers don't tell the whole story because we were ****** as a team, hence I feel we'll be better under different coaching and with some systematic problems workout (faceoffs, defensive physicality, etc).

Bouwmeester is still a slick skater, can bail out his partner, and can see the ice well. His plus/minus is bad because neither him or Butler can clear out the crease, IMO anyways. Bouwmeester would be better suited to play with a physical machine who can bail out Bouwmeester and can make the job hard for the opposition.

MarkGio is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-30-2012, 10:34 AM
  #35
The Gnome
Registered User
 
The Gnome's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Calgary
Posts: 3,037
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkGio View Post
I've watched probably 70 Flames games this year, as I get Sportsnet Flames, West, TNS and CBC, and I think Bouwmeester's game extends beyond his numbers. But I think all of our player's numbers don't tell the whole story because we were ****** as a team, hence I feel we'll be better under different coaching and with some systematic problems workout (faceoffs, defensive physicality, etc).

Bouwmeester is still a slick skater, can bail out his partner, and can see the ice well. His plus/minus is bad because neither him or Butler can clear out the crease, IMO anyways. Bouwmeester would be better suited to play with a physical machine who can bail out Bouwmeester and can make the job hard for the opposition.
Our backend needs some serious work.

I would trade Jaybo for a #1 centre, but he does not hold that value. **** no to trading for Vinny with that contract.

Medium Rare and you have it right. Bouwmeester is a solid Dman, but we do need a solid partner for him (hopefully RH). Someone who is very physical and can clear the front of the net. In my mind we need two of these guys, because this is how I see our backend

Bouwmeester-(hole)
Giordano-(hole)
Butler-Brodie
Smith

I put players where I think they should be placed in the lineup. How tough was it for Butler to have to play top pairing minutes, when he is barely ready for top 4. That obviously reflects on Bouwmeester's poor +/-.

Wideman blew it in the PO's. Carle is not very good. I hope we can land Garrison. He is a big, strong, TW dman (from what I've seen).

All I know right now is that our backend is pathetic and has no balls. But Bouwmeester is not the problem. We simply need to add some top 4 talent. Easier said than done.

The Gnome is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-30-2012, 10:39 AM
  #36
Johnny Hoxville
Moderator
Dust Buster
 
Johnny Hoxville's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Calgary
Country: Canada
Posts: 13,769
vCash: 50
Justin Schultz is a right handed dman, just sayin...

Johnny Hoxville is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-30-2012, 12:33 PM
  #37
Volica
150 lbs of Hockey
 
Volica's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,526
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Medium Rare View Post
+/- doesn't prove anything. by that form of logic Brent Sopel is one of the best defensemen of our generation.
Yeah, +/- doesn't prove anything.

Just stop kid.

Volica is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-30-2012, 12:48 PM
  #38
The Gnome
Registered User
 
The Gnome's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Calgary
Posts: 3,037
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Miokid View Post
Yeah, +/- doesn't prove anything.

Just stop kid.
Stats are great, but you have to look at the context of the situation and have some first-hand knowledge of Bouwmeester's situation. Which is questionable for you after reading some comments.

Our only top pairing dman is Bouwmeester. Who, for most of the year was paired with Butler as our top shutdown pairing. Our backend in general is brutal outside of Gio and Bouw, nobody is a top 4 dman. Butler looks like he is growing into one, but him as a top shutdown guy is brutal.

We are a very low scoring team and also have major defensive holes. It doesn't take a lot of thought to conclude why Bouwmeester's +/- is so bad. He had his bad moments last year, but his solid defensive play was fairly consistent and he even showed to be more aggresive then years past. He had a pretty solid year last year, nothing earth shattering. But he showed up almost every game and did his job, which was to be our go to shutdown guy.

The Gnome is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:16 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2015 All Rights Reserved.