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What kind of sweetened offer for Nash we talking about DW?

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Old
05-26-2012, 12:48 AM
  #51
hohosaregood
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Originally Posted by TheJuxtaposer View Post
You know what Nash will also have to deal with? Not getting to take 300 shots a year because unlike the Blue Jackets, the Sharks have many other goalscorers that need the puck as well. Even within the team this season, you can see the dynamics shifting. Putting Pavelski on the top line takes shots away from Marleau, when Pavs could produce the same amount of shots on the 3rd line.
I don't really see why Nash couldn't get 300 shots, I mean Pavelski got 270 on Thornton's wing and Marleau didn't suffer that badly in his shot totals. Also I can't understand the point of "other goalscorers that NEED the puck as well". With more viable goalscorers then we have more options that could get a shot to the net instead of bottlenecking our options around a few goalscorers

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05-26-2012, 01:08 AM
  #52
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Originally Posted by hohosaregood View Post
I don't really see why Nash couldn't get 300 shots, I mean Pavelski got 270 on Thornton's wing and Marleau didn't suffer that badly in his shot totals. Also I can't understand the point of "other goalscorers that NEED the puck as well". With more viable goalscorers then we have more options that could get a shot to the net instead of bottlenecking our options around a few goalscorers
I don't think the shots themselves will be an issue. The issue is the competition he will face on a consistent basis if he's lined up with Thornton. He will have the puck less, he will be defended more, and he will play against the best every night whereas there are coaches that will shelter their offensive players to a higher degree than McLellan will.

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05-26-2012, 01:36 AM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Spacemania View Post
The only way we'll get Nash is via signifigant overpayment, and being stuck with one brutal contract. I love Nash as a player, I would love to have him, but dear gods no to that contract.
My feelings exactly. I would love to see Nash play with talent for once, but the stakes are too high if it doesn't work out. Huge drain on cap space, we will probably have to lose a core member, whether it's Pavs, Couture, Vlasic, or Niemi, and no doubt we'll lose futures. I really don't think Nash will be worth it.

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05-26-2012, 01:38 AM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Pinkfloyd View Post
I don't think the shots themselves will be an issue. The issue is the competition he will face on a consistent basis if he's lined up with Thornton. He will have the puck less, he will be defended more, and he will play against the best every night whereas there are coaches that will shelter their offensive players to a higher degree than McLellan will.
Oh okay, I see what you're getting at. I think that Nash would do really well here but I'm clearly in the minority here but I think that he has qualities that could have him succeed here. He's big, strong, creative, also got great shot, and he's a pretty good skater. I just hated seeing Pavs get the crap beat out of him every game. I also think he could become a better player overall here if you consider how McLellan's power vs power thing demands two way accountability but I can agree his contract is not pretty at all.

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05-26-2012, 05:55 AM
  #55
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I'm in the group that would be happy to see Nash in SJ.

The current crop can be protected but the truth is, it's still not working and offense was a big issue this postseason. Is he the answer? I don't know. Is he worth the risk? I believe so, given the alternatives. I don't want to see the team stand still and hope it works out, whether that's impatient or not. When Nash is "on", CBS wouldn't even think twice of trading him.

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Old
05-26-2012, 09:36 AM
  #56
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Originally Posted by Le Rosbeef View Post
I'm in the group that would be happy to see Nash in SJ.

The current crop can be protected but the truth is, it's still not working and offense was a big issue this postseason. Is he the answer? I don't know. Is he worth the risk? I believe so, given the alternatives. I don't want to see the team stand still and hope it works out, whether that's impatient or not. When Nash is "on", CBS wouldn't even think twice of trading him.
If system changes are not made I fully expect to have the exact same problems next season with or without Nash. The quality of our top-6 was not the issue, the way they were told to play was.

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05-26-2012, 09:44 AM
  #57
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Originally Posted by hockeyball View Post
If system changes are not made I fully expect to have the exact same problems next season with or without Nash. The quality of our top-6 was not the issue, the way they were told to play was.
^^^This

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Old
05-26-2012, 10:25 AM
  #58
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If they keep the same system, I would rather they go after someone like Jones.

All things being equal Nash is way better than Jones, but once you factor in cost and the type of offensive game the Sharks play he makes more sense than Nash.

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05-26-2012, 10:28 AM
  #59
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Originally Posted by hockeyball View Post
if system changes are not made i fully expect to have the exact same problems next season with or without nash. The quality of our top-6 was not the issue, the way they were told to play was.

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Old
05-26-2012, 10:42 AM
  #60
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which is why keeping the koala is a mistake ... the same result next year after huge moves will be the end of Doug Wilson

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Old
05-26-2012, 11:11 AM
  #61
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In a fantasy land, far, far, away, I would hope that DW pulls off the Nash trade (because I fully expect him to trade for Nash) without someone giving up one of Couture, Pavelski, Marleau, JT, or Havlat.

I don't expect Clowe to be part of the deal, but maybe something along the lines of Niemi, Hamilton, Doherty, 2012 1st, and maybe a guy like Tim Kennedy. It's a complete pipe dream that I don't see happening, but it would be preferable for me.

If that did happen, I would NOT put Nash on JT's line. Instead I would try to go with something closer to the lineup below. I am assuming a trade of Clowe to TO for Gunnarsson (with maybe a pick or something on either side to even out. Add a 7th defenseman for a million or less and you have about $1.5 mil in cap space below the current cap.

This line-up gives you 2 top-end scoring lines. 1 with lots of puck-possession skill, but not much speed. And a 2nd with very good speed, good size, and very good scoring. The 3rd line isn't a total scoring line, but Moore has shown he can run a scoring 3rd line before, Wingels is better as a scorer than a 4th liner, and I'm slotting in Shephard just off other posters comments that he has potentially top-6 or tweener talent. The 4th line is extremely good defensively (in Winnik and Desjardin), has pest-like qualities (Desjardin and Galiardi), and some decent speed (again, Desi and Galli). And I'm keeping Winchester around as a tough guy, although he can go if wants.

I am assuming Murray gets moved for picks or prospects, and Handzus will waive and get a minimal return (a 7th or so).

FORWARDS

Logan Couture ($2.875m) / Joe Thornton ($7.000m) / Joe Pavelski ($4.000m)
Rick Nash ($7.800m) / Patrick Marleau ($6.900m) / Martin Havlat ($5.000m)
James Sheppard ($0.775m) / Dominic Moore ($1.500m) / Tommy Wingels ($0.850m)
Daniel Winnik ($2.250m) / Andrew Desjardins ($0.700m) / T.J. Galiardi ($0.735m)
Brad Winchester ($0.725m) /

DEFENSEMEN
Marc-Edouard Vlasic ($3.100m) / Brent Burns ($5.760m)
Carl Gunnarsson ($1.325m) / Dan Boyle ($6.667m)
Jason Demers ($1.250m) / Justin Braun ($1.250m)

GOALTENDERS
Thomas Greiss ($0.588m)
Alex Stalock ($0.688m)
------
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(these totals are compiled without the bonus cushion)
SALARY CAP: $64,300,000; CAP PAYROLL: $61,736,667; BONUSES: $0
CAP SPACE (21-man roster): $2,563,333


Anyway, that is my best case scenario given Doug Wilson's usual stupidity. Too bad it won't happen. Of course, if I had my way we would be shopping JT, Boyle, Clowe, Murray, and Niemi and trying to rebuild prospect pool and do a major redo of the team structure. But that won't happen either.

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Old
05-26-2012, 11:15 AM
  #62
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Originally Posted by Pinkfloyd View Post
I don't think the shots themselves will be an issue. The issue is the competition he will face on a consistent basis if he's lined up with Thornton. He will have the puck less, he will be defended more, and he will play against the best every night whereas there are coaches that will shelter their offensive players to a higher degree than McLellan will.
Are you serious? Haha, and he doesn't get the full attention playing on Columbus? He is the only threat on that team. All opponents focus on him.

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Old
05-26-2012, 11:39 AM
  #63
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Originally Posted by Sharksrule04 View Post
Are you serious? Haha, and he doesn't get the full attention playing on Columbus? He is the only threat on that team. All opponents focus on him.
Absolutely serious. Coaches often times make the conscious choice to shelter their offensive players in one way or another. McLellan doesn't. The obvious example are the Sedins with how much offensive zone starts they get. The difference between what Nash has gotten and what he'd get here riding shotgun with Thornton will be tremendous. One, he got about 53% of his shifts starting in the offensive zone. Two, his competition was noticeably lower than Thornton and Pavelski. In San Jose, if he's playing with Thornton, he's seeing considerably less offensive zone starts unless there is a change of heart and he is seeing a noticeably higher set of competition.

Just because he's their only threat doesn't mean a coach can't have an impact on matchups and doesn't have opportunities to throw him out in favorable situations. And when you combine that little bit of knowledge with the reality that he won't see the puck as often when it's on Thornton's stick and the thought that his production is going to skyrocket should be thrown out the door. He's a damn good player but he isn't worth the cost to acquire nor his contract.

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Old
05-26-2012, 01:07 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by Vaasa View Post
In a fantasy land, far, far, away, I would hope that DW pulls off the Nash trade (because I fully expect him to trade for Nash) without someone giving up one of Couture, Pavelski, Marleau, JT, or Havlat.

I don't expect Clowe to be part of the deal, but maybe something along the lines of Niemi, Hamilton, Doherty, 2012 1st, and maybe a guy like Tim Kennedy. It's a complete pipe dream that I don't see happening, but it would be preferable for me.

If that did happen, I would NOT put Nash on JT's line. Instead I would try to go with something closer to the lineup below. I am assuming a trade of Clowe to TO for Gunnarsson (with maybe a pick or something on either side to even out. Add a 7th defenseman for a million or less and you have about $1.5 mil in cap space below the current cap.

This line-up gives you 2 top-end scoring lines. 1 with lots of puck-possession skill, but not much speed. And a 2nd with very good speed, good size, and very good scoring. The 3rd line isn't a total scoring line, but Moore has shown he can run a scoring 3rd line before, Wingels is better as a scorer than a 4th liner, and I'm slotting in Shephard just off other posters comments that he has potentially top-6 or tweener talent. The 4th line is extremely good defensively (in Winnik and Desjardin), has pest-like qualities (Desjardin and Galiardi), and some decent speed (again, Desi and Galli). And I'm keeping Winchester around as a tough guy, although he can go if wants.

I am assuming Murray gets moved for picks or prospects, and Handzus will waive and get a minimal return (a 7th or so).

FORWARDS

Logan Couture ($2.875m) / Joe Thornton ($7.000m) / Joe Pavelski ($4.000m)
Rick Nash ($7.800m) / Patrick Marleau ($6.900m) / Martin Havlat ($5.000m)
James Sheppard ($0.775m) / Dominic Moore ($1.500m) / Tommy Wingels ($0.850m)
Daniel Winnik ($2.250m) / Andrew Desjardins ($0.700m) / T.J. Galiardi ($0.735m)
Brad Winchester ($0.725m) /

DEFENSEMEN
Marc-Edouard Vlasic ($3.100m) / Brent Burns ($5.760m)
Carl Gunnarsson ($1.325m) / Dan Boyle ($6.667m)
Jason Demers ($1.250m) / Justin Braun ($1.250m)

GOALTENDERS
Thomas Greiss ($0.588m)
Alex Stalock ($0.688m)
------
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(these totals are compiled without the bonus cushion)
SALARY CAP: $64,300,000; CAP PAYROLL: $61,736,667; BONUSES: $0
CAP SPACE (21-man roster): $2,563,333


Anyway, that is my best case scenario given Doug Wilson's usual stupidity. Too bad it won't happen. Of course, if I had my way we would be shopping JT, Boyle, Clowe, Murray, and Niemi and trying to rebuild prospect pool and do a major redo of the team structure. But that won't happen either.
Holy crap Vaasa, that is one slow ass team. Pavelski JT and Couture on one line would be probably the slowest top line in the NHL lol.

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Old
05-26-2012, 01:21 PM
  #65
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I don't know if another Summer with a major move is the answer for the Sharks. Just feels like a tired move, despite Nash being a great player. The assets we give up are going to hurt no matter what. I doubt Nash will solve our problems.

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05-26-2012, 01:25 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by Hatrick Marleau View Post
Benn Ferriero.
Hey don't knock our 2nd in GWG's stud Benn Ferriero

He's my favorite random Shark player!

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05-26-2012, 03:35 PM
  #67
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Originally Posted by damacles1156 View Post
Nash is so overrated. Columbus is trying to rebuild an entire roster with that trade.

No one is going to give up what that Crack pot GM wants...
The organization hired a good adviser. I think Columbus will begin to straighten itself out. Their are some good pieces on the roster.

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05-26-2012, 08:05 PM
  #68
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Holy crap Vaasa, that is one slow ass team. Pavelski JT and Couture on one line would be probably the slowest top line in the NHL lol.
It's a relatively slow top-line, but it's not a slow team. The 2nd-line is significantly above average in speed and is exactly what you want for high-pressure offensive line. Size, speed, scoring ability, and good defensive skills.

The top line is slow, but any line is slow with JT on it. Having Marleau on his line has done nothing to counter-act how slow JT plays. So the first line is designed to play to JT's strength. You have very-high quality 2-way forwards in Couture and Pavelski. You have 3 face-off men so JT can continue to cheat. You have two wingers who can put up 30-goals. As long as the defensive pair behind them has decent speed, Pavs and Couture are fast enough to come back to cover the upper zone.

The rest of the team is generally average in speed. Just remember, the Blues aren't exactly a team full of speedsters and they shut the Sharks down. Speed is not critical in some cases. And if the opposition has fast lines, put the 2nd line on their best line with speed, and the 3rd or 4th on the next quality line. The JT line should be able to still overcome any issues, and it's letting Marleau get back to playing a speed game, lets Mach 9 play a high-speed game as he wants, and lets Nash play a more up-tempo, offensive game, where he should be best.

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Old
05-26-2012, 08:15 PM
  #69
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I'm not worried about coaching. When the Sharks go 15-16-3 next year out the gate. Todd will get cAnned. Then we'll get a Sutter for a coach and face roll to the cup!

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05-26-2012, 08:45 PM
  #70
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I'm not worried about coaching. When the Sharks go 15-16-3 next year out the gate. Todd will get cAnned. Then we'll get a Sutter for a coach and face roll to the cup!
Yeah, that's not going to happen.

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05-27-2012, 01:28 AM
  #71
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Originally Posted by TheRealAllstar10 View Post
Rick Nash is a better overall player than Heatley. Better skater, more physical, more creative(which this team needs). I like Heatley as well but his best offensive years were in Ottawa playing on a line with Spezza and Alfie, which was arguably the best line in the league at the time. Rick Nash has never played with that type of linemates like Heater has. I would agree that if Nash was in SJ playing with Joe he would put up 40g.
Something Heater never accomplished while he was here
I completely agree with you. If Heatley wasn't scoring goals, he wasn't doing much defensively. Nash scored 40 goals in 08-09 with the Blue Jackets! That's without Thornton, and 30 goals last year, also without Thornton. So how can any of you people (not you realallstar10) sit there and say he won't score more than 40 goals playing alongside Thornton?? I can't believe how many of you people think Nash is overrated. Sure is contract may be heavy but if DW can make a good deal that's affordable, I'd say Nash is worth the risk.

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05-27-2012, 02:38 AM
  #72
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I completely agree with you. If Heatley wasn't scoring goals, he wasn't doing much defensively. Nash scored 40 goals in 08-09 with the Blue Jackets! That's without Thornton, and 30 goals last year, also without Thornton. So how can any of you people (not you realallstar10) sit there and say he won't score more than 40 goals playing alongside Thornton?? I can't believe how many of you people think Nash is overrated. Sure is contract may be heavy but if DW can make a good deal that's affordable, I'd say Nash is worth the risk.
Because a two time 50 goal scorer, a feat Nash has never done, couldn't accomplish that feat. Nash does it on Columbus because he gets the puck all the time and gets a lot of the prime offensive opportunities with regards to offensive zone shifts and competition.

None of those things, he will have the luxury of having in San Jose. Thornton is going to have the puck most of the time. McLellan will not shelter his top players. Those are two very big reasons why Nash will not score 40+ goals here.

People seriously do not understand how Rick Nash has played in Columbus to get those numbers he got. People severely do not understand that that style of play is not transferable to a team with talent. People oversimplify this thought process by believing that production is linear or transferable when it isn't.

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05-27-2012, 02:50 AM
  #73
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We're still talking about Nash? I said this a month ago and I'll say it again... Say no to drugs, say no to Rick Nash. He is a terrible hockey player. I'd rather have Steve Nash. Steve is a great passer and his shooting percentage is over 50%.

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05-27-2012, 02:50 AM
  #74
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Originally Posted by Pinkfloyd View Post
Because a two time 50 goal scorer, a feat Nash has never done, couldn't accomplish that feat. Nash does it on Columbus because he gets the puck all the time and gets a lot of the prime offensive opportunities with regards to offensive zone shifts and competition.

None of those things, he will have the luxury of having in San Jose. Thornton is going to have the puck most of the time. McLellan will not shelter his top players. Those are two very big reasons why Nash will not score 40+ goals here.

People seriously do not understand how Rick Nash has played in Columbus to get those numbers he got. People severely do not understand that that style of play is not transferable to a team with talent. People oversimplify this thought process by believing that production is linear or transferable when it isn't.
Hmmm...yeah I guess you're right. I guess team Canada never had any talent at all when he played for them alongside Crosby and Iginla and won a gold medal. Nope, no talent there at all I guess...

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05-27-2012, 02:55 AM
  #75
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Hmmm...yeah I guess you're right. I guess team Canada never had any talent at all when he played for them alongside Crosby and Iginla and won a gold medal. Nope, no talent there at all I guess...
I guess what happens on Team Canada is totally transferable to the Sharks, right? But oh wait, Dany Heatley played for Team Canada too and has always been a great producer in international play. Gee, I wonder how that guy, who also had two 50 goal seasons and those international accolades, turned out. Oh wait.

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