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What kind of sweetened offer for Nash we talking about DW?

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05-31-2012, 02:53 AM
  #151
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Originally Posted by TheJuxtaposer View Post
A little off-topic, but why does DW hate Russians so much? Is it just Korky and Zyuzin, or am I forgetting someone?

Baked Potato

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05-31-2012, 02:55 AM
  #152
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Question is, who's sweetening the deal?

Even then, I want no part of Nash and his ridiculous contract.

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05-31-2012, 04:42 AM
  #153
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Originally Posted by Kitten Mittons View Post
Can we get a list of "legit" Russian players that DW passed on? Not talking Zherdev or guys like that.
Zherdev (4th) actually went higher than Michalek (6th) in '03.

Not sure how "legit" they are, but I count six in the first and second rounds that were close to where San Jose had their picks, or close to where some of these guys were projected at:

2003: Milan Michalek - 6th overall; Andrei Kostitsyn - 10th overall (not Russian, but close enough)

2004: Lukas Kaspar - 22th overall; Roman Voloshenko - 42th overall (he never amounted to anything in the NHL, but he was seen as a potential top-6)

2006: Ty Wishart - 16th overall; Semyon Varlamov - 20th overall

2006: Jamie McGinn - 36th overall; Nikolai Kulemin - 44th overall

2007: Logan Couture - 9th overall; Alexei Cherepanov - 17th overall (was supposed to be a top-10, but fell)

2010: Charlie Coyle - 28th overall; Kirill Kabanov - 65th overall (projections had Coyle in the 2nd round, and Kabanov was a bit of wild card, he could have gone in the 1st by some opinions)


The Russian bias isn't solely a DW thing, it's pretty much the norm amongst all 30 GMs. Here's how many Russians were drafted in each year from 2000-2011, and where Russia ranked:

2000: 3rd - 42 (14.3%); 2001: 3rd - 38 (13.1%); 2002: 3rd - 33 (11.3%); 2003: 3rd - 30 (10.2%); 2004: 4th - 20 (6.9%); 2005: 5th - 11 (4.8%); 2006: 4th - 15 (7%); 2007: 4th - 9 (4.3%); 2008: 4th - 9 (4.3%); 2009: 5th - 7 (3.3%); 2010: 4th - 8 (3.8%); 2011: 6th - 9 (4.3%)

(source: Wikipedia entries of each draft)


A significant drop off in little over a decade. Overall I think teams started looking for all-around responsible players, not just highly skilled offensive minded guys. The development culture and mentality in Russia doesn't appear to mirror the one in North America.

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Old
05-31-2012, 11:54 AM
  #154
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Originally Posted by param View Post
Zherdev (4th) actually went higher than Michalek (6th) in '03.

Not sure how "legit" they are, but I count six in the first and second rounds that were close to where San Jose had their picks, or close to where some of these guys were projected at:

2003: Milan Michalek - 6th overall; Andrei Kostitsyn - 10th overall (not Russian, but close enough)

2004: Lukas Kaspar - 22th overall; Roman Voloshenko - 42th overall (he never amounted to anything in the NHL, but he was seen as a potential top-6)

2006: Ty Wishart - 16th overall; Semyon Varlamov - 20th overall

2006: Jamie McGinn - 36th overall; Nikolai Kulemin - 44th overall

2007: Logan Couture - 9th overall; Alexei Cherepanov - 17th overall (was supposed to be a top-10, but fell)

2010: Charlie Coyle - 28th overall; Kirill Kabanov - 65th overall (projections had Coyle in the 2nd round, and Kabanov was a bit of wild card, he could have gone in the 1st by some opinions)


The Russian bias isn't solely a DW thing, it's pretty much the norm amongst all 30 GMs. Here's how many Russians were drafted in each year from 2000-2011, and where Russia ranked:

2000: 3rd - 42 (14.3%); 2001: 3rd - 38 (13.1%); 2002: 3rd - 33 (11.3%); 2003: 3rd - 30 (10.2%); 2004: 4th - 20 (6.9%); 2005: 5th - 11 (4.8%); 2006: 4th - 15 (7%); 2007: 4th - 9 (4.3%); 2008: 4th - 9 (4.3%); 2009: 5th - 7 (3.3%); 2010: 4th - 8 (3.8%); 2011: 6th - 9 (4.3%)

(source: Wikipedia entries of each draft)


A significant drop off in little over a decade. Overall I think teams started looking for all-around responsible players, not just highly skilled offensive minded guys. The development culture and mentality in Russia doesn't appear to mirror the one in North America.
When I did the retrospective, a lot of those guys who never panned out from early in the millenia and the late 90s were effectively Yashin clones. Big, not fast, but offensively gifted. A lot of Russians were taken in later rounds, not so much anymore. Probably had as much to do with the GM's "ideal" player not matching what was really needed in the league. Note that the guys who did succeed were a bit faster. And now with the salaries/competition with the KHL, GMs are less prone to take a stab at that pool of players because they may very well not decide to stay or cooperate with a North American development program.

The other issue is that if you look at the size of the junior programs in the various countries, Russia's program is relatively small in relation to its population. Roughly the same number of youngsters as Sweden.

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Old
05-31-2012, 01:44 PM
  #155
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Quote:
Originally Posted by param View Post
Zherdev (4th) actually went higher than Michalek (6th) in '03.

Not sure how "legit" they are, but I count six in the first and second rounds that were close to where San Jose had their picks, or close to where some of these guys were projected at:

2003: Milan Michalek - 6th overall; Andrei Kostitsyn - 10th overall (not Russian, but close enough)

2004: Lukas Kaspar - 22th overall; Roman Voloshenko - 42th overall (he never amounted to anything in the NHL, but he was seen as a potential top-6)

2006: Ty Wishart - 16th overall; Semyon Varlamov - 20th overall

2006: Jamie McGinn - 36th overall; Nikolai Kulemin - 44th overall

2007: Logan Couture - 9th overall; Alexei Cherepanov - 17th overall (was supposed to be a top-10, but fell)

2010: Charlie Coyle - 28th overall; Kirill Kabanov - 65th overall (projections had Coyle in the 2nd round, and Kabanov was a bit of wild card, he could have gone in the 1st by some opinions)


The Russian bias isn't solely a DW thing, it's pretty much the norm amongst all 30 GMs. Here's how many Russians were drafted in each year from 2000-2011, and where Russia ranked:

2000: 3rd - 42 (14.3%); 2001: 3rd - 38 (13.1%); 2002: 3rd - 33 (11.3%); 2003: 3rd - 30 (10.2%); 2004: 4th - 20 (6.9%); 2005: 5th - 11 (4.8%); 2006: 4th - 15 (7%); 2007: 4th - 9 (4.3%); 2008: 4th - 9 (4.3%); 2009: 5th - 7 (3.3%); 2010: 4th - 8 (3.8%); 2011: 6th - 9 (4.3%)

(source: Wikipedia entries of each draft)


A significant drop off in little over a decade. Overall I think teams started looking for all-around responsible players, not just highly skilled offensive minded guys. The development culture and mentality in Russia doesn't appear to mirror the one in North America.
That looks like a list of Russian players who were worse (or no better) than the guy we drafted. And listing guys taken a full round or more later than our pick I don't think means DW hates Russians.

The only real reason I make jokes about him hating Russians is I can't remember the last one on the team (other than Semenov).

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Old
05-31-2012, 01:48 PM
  #156
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CrazedZooChimp View Post
That looks like a list of Russian players who were worse (or no better) than the guy we drafted. And listing guys taken a full round or more later than our pick I don't think means DW hates Russians.

The only real reason I make jokes about him hating Russians is I can't remember the last one on the team (other than Semenov).

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Old
05-31-2012, 02:10 PM
  #157
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheJuxtaposer View Post
I don't count him, he was drafted like a billion years ago in the 9th round, and goalies aren't like normal players

Also, that picture is great.

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Old
05-31-2012, 02:26 PM
  #158
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Quote:
Originally Posted by param View Post
Zherdev (4th) actually went higher than Michalek (6th) in '03.

Not sure how "legit" they are, but I count six in the first and second rounds that were close to where San Jose had their picks, or close to where some of these guys were projected at:

2003: Milan Michalek - 6th overall; Andrei Kostitsyn - 10th overall (not Russian, but close enough)

2004: Lukas Kaspar - 22th overall; Roman Voloshenko - 42th overall (he never amounted to anything in the NHL, but he was seen as a potential top-6)

2006: Ty Wishart - 16th overall; Semyon Varlamov - 20th overall

2006: Jamie McGinn - 36th overall; Nikolai Kulemin - 44th overall

2007: Logan Couture - 9th overall; Alexei Cherepanov - 17th overall (was supposed to be a top-10, but fell)

2010: Charlie Coyle - 28th overall; Kirill Kabanov - 65th overall (projections had Coyle in the 2nd round, and Kabanov was a bit of wild card, he could have gone in the 1st by some opinions)


The Russian bias isn't solely a DW thing, it's pretty much the norm amongst all 30 GMs. Here's how many Russians were drafted in each year from 2000-2011, and where Russia ranked:

2000: 3rd - 42 (14.3%); 2001: 3rd - 38 (13.1%); 2002: 3rd - 33 (11.3%); 2003: 3rd - 30 (10.2%); 2004: 4th - 20 (6.9%); 2005: 5th - 11 (4.8%); 2006: 4th - 15 (7%); 2007: 4th - 9 (4.3%); 2008: 4th - 9 (4.3%); 2009: 5th - 7 (3.3%); 2010: 4th - 8 (3.8%); 2011: 6th - 9 (4.3%)

(source: Wikipedia entries of each draft)


A significant drop off in little over a decade. Overall I think teams started looking for all-around responsible players, not just highly skilled offensive minded guys. The development culture and mentality in Russia doesn't appear to mirror the one in North America.
Well, none of those players are legit.

I was also speculating about free agency. Like forwards or defensemen that we needed at the time that DW did not make an offer to.

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05-31-2012, 02:33 PM
  #159
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When you draft 1 Russian player in 15 years (or however long it was), it's not a coincidence.

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05-31-2012, 02:45 PM
  #160
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with the stereotype of laziness, I wouldn't either

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05-31-2012, 04:26 PM
  #161
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Guys, lazy is not PC. The appropriate term is enigmatic.

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06-01-2012, 12:35 PM
  #162
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Guys, lazy is not PC. The appropriate term is enigmatic.
I thought Marleau was Canadian?

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06-01-2012, 02:07 PM
  #163
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Guys, lazy is not PC. The appropriate term is enigmatic.
Andre: I met this doctor, Dr. Maxwell. Real class act.
Pete: Is he...black?
Andre: How'd you know?
Pete: Nine times out of ten, when a sportscaster is referring to someone as a "class act", they're talking about a head coach who's black. "Tony Dungy, what a class act."
Kevin: "Total. Lovie Smith—class act."
Andre: I never noticed that. I mean, it happens all the time?
Kevin: It's not just football. Sportscasters use these code words in all sports. If they're talking about a Latino player in baseball, like, "Ozzie Guillen is a..."
Ruxin: Firecracker. Latin guys are always firecrackers.
Kevin: "...firecracker."
Pete: Spark plug.
Kevin: Spark plug in the clubhouse.
Ruxin: Wes Welker is like a gym rat, a real scrappy player.
Kevin: Which is code word for "white."
Ruxin: Always a white guy.
Kevin: Ichiro Suzuki is...
Taco: Inscrutable.

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06-07-2012, 09:52 PM
  #164
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http://www.thefourthperiod.com/news/cbj120602.html

So the Jackets are seeking a #1 goaltender. Didn't the Sharks apparently try to trade Niemi right before the deadline or something like that I can't remember? If the Sharks do trade Niemi and something else for Nash, is everyone confident with Greiss becoming the #1 and I guess Stalock as the backup? Anyone think that DW might do that?

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06-07-2012, 09:57 PM
  #165
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Please GOD trade Niemi.

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06-07-2012, 10:19 PM
  #166
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Squeeven View Post
http://www.thefourthperiod.com/news/cbj120602.html

So the Jackets are seeking a #1 goaltender. Didn't the Sharks apparently try to trade Niemi right before the deadline or something like that I can't remember? If the Sharks do trade Niemi and something else for Nash, is everyone confident with Greiss becoming the #1 and I guess Stalock as the backup? Anyone think that DW might do that?
He should, but I doubt it. More likely he'll trade them both, make Stalock the backup and trade for Mason or something, which I'm fine with too.

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06-08-2012, 12:44 PM
  #167
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Squeeven View Post
http://www.thefourthperiod.com/news/cbj120602.html

So the Jackets are seeking a #1 goaltender. Didn't the Sharks apparently try to trade Niemi right before the deadline or something like that I can't remember? If the Sharks do trade Niemi and something else for Nash, is everyone confident with Greiss becoming the #1 and I guess Stalock as the backup? Anyone think that DW might do that?
I think there was a rumor that we tried to send him to Philly for JVR or some Niemi+/JVR+ deal.

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06-08-2012, 01:32 PM
  #168
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I think Niemi is an average tender that plays consistenly just above average. He is a team guy in that he does not talk in the media or have an ego. But he is not the answer in net for this team.

The rebounds, especially on the pk, that he gives up are horrible and too frequent.

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06-08-2012, 02:45 PM
  #169
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He should, but I doubt it. More likely he'll trade them both, make Stalock the backup and trade for Mason or something, which I'm fine with too.
I know Greiss has been good in the limited opportunities he has been given. But I am not confident with him as our starting goalie. I would be totally fine with getting in Mason and giving them both equal chances to prove that they are starter worthy. Niemi's cap hit for this year is 3.8M and that runs through 2014-15. Mason's cap hit is 2.9M for 2012-13 and his contract expires after that. Plus I expect Mason does better than how he did in CBJ with a better team in front of him in SJ.

If we do get Mason I am fine with trading Greiss (for picks or futures) in that situation and moving up Stalock as a backup.

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06-08-2012, 06:35 PM
  #170
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Please GOD trade Niemi.
What he said...

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06-08-2012, 10:14 PM
  #171
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Please GOD trade Niemi.
To be honest I'm not so sure about that. Niemi really kept us in that series against the Blues.

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06-10-2012, 01:29 PM
  #172
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Do a lot of you really still want Niemi gone? Even after the way he kept us in the series against the Blues? I thought he played really well, but he does still need to work on his rebounds.

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06-10-2012, 01:32 PM
  #173
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Do a lot of you really still want Niemi gone? Even after the way he kept us in the series against the Blues? I thought he played really well, but he does still need to work on his rebounds.
Most wanted Nabokov's head for doing the same thing, why would we be any easier on Niemi?

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06-10-2012, 01:34 PM
  #174
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Do a lot of you really still want Niemi gone? Even after the way he kept us in the series against the Blues? I thought he played really well, but he does still need to work on his rebounds.
He's capable of good play, but not consistently. The only thing he is consistent at is being average.

It's not that we don't like Niemi, it's that we think we can get 'average' goaltending a lot cheaper with Greiss/Stalock.

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06-10-2012, 02:05 PM
  #175
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with the stereotype of laziness, I wouldn't either
I would probably draft more Russian players now. With half the league (and fans like you) afraid of them, theyre available at a great discount and aren't any less talented than Americans or Canadians which everyone seems to favor (and thus, overvalue). Last 2 years, Russia's under 20 team has beaten Canada's under 20s. Russia's men are reigning world champions.

I'd look at more of these guys everyone is avoiding. Imagine the talent you could collect because of (what I think is stupid reasoning).

Radulov - M. Richards - J. Carter
Semin - XXXXX - Penner
Zherdev - XXXX - Ponikarovsky

Souray - Zidlicky

M. Smith

Quite the talented team of players nobody wanted. The rest could've been filled with guys already on the roster. And these are just names that have been available in the last 2 years.

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