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Justin Schultz signs with Oilers

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06-28-2012, 06:31 PM
  #401
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sepster View Post
Jaster,

Schultz is a prospect.
No he isn't. Not as it pertains to the system he is working within, compared to that of Brendan Smith. Schultz is not working within the framework or set of rules that prospects do.


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He has not played one second of Pro hockey. Just because he is a free agent does not guarantee he is ready or capable of playing in the NHL.
I don't think there is a single person, anywhere, that thinks he is ready for NHL hockey just because he's a FA. People think he's ready, or close to ready, for NHL hockey because a boatload of professional hockey scouts have evaluated him and come to that conclusion.


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Your assumption that prospects would not be irritated is just as much speculation as displayed on the other side of the argument.
No it isn't. That's false equivalency. I didn't make the claim. Someone else made a claim. And the reasons that were provided are invalid, imo. And if there are no good reasons why Smith would be angry at the Wings for pursuing Schultz, then there is no reason for me to believe he is.


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I wasn't saying that other prospects are angry at Schultz for doing what he's doing. I was implying that since he is making this situation for himself where 99.9% of other prospects don't, means that he feels he is entitled to something he doesn't feel the need to work for. I think that is a huge red flag.
But you're making assumptions to come to the conclusion that Schultz feels entitled. I don't know Justin Schultz and I am unfamiliar with his reasons for doing what he has done up to this point. And I have yet to see one poster claim that he does know these things. Do you? If not, then this is what it is: a conclusion based on a lot of speculation and assumptions and, really, nothing more.


Last edited by jaster: 06-28-2012 at 06:37 PM.
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06-28-2012, 06:34 PM
  #402
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Depends on your definition there Jaster, Hockeysfutures still considers Smith a prospect and he has suited up for NHL games. In fact if Schultz crashes and burns and is in the AHL 20 games into the season he will still be a prospect according to most places that write about players. You have to play a full season to graduate from that status in most talent evaluating circles.

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06-28-2012, 06:43 PM
  #403
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Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
I don't know if Smith would hate those comments or not.
But if you think players don't pay attention to this stuff, you're crazy.

Maybe not so much the comments... but if Schultz were to come in and get a spot in the lineup guaranteed, you can bet that guys like Kindl and Smith wouldn't be thrilled with it.
Not being thrilled about it is different than being angry at the Wings for it. I mean, we're talking about Schultz getting a roster spot. Not a guarantee that he jumps Smith or Kindl or knocks them down the depth chart. I would expect him to be behind Smith anyway. And Kindl.... well Kindl has no business being, no matter where he winds up. He hasn't proven anything. And with there being a 3 1/2 year age difference, I'd rather go with the younger unproven guy.


Quote:
In the long run it might not matter. But players care about this stuff.

Free agents leave teams all the time for bigger and better roles on other teams. It's not sour grapes. It's human nature.
Sure, but in this case, if Smith or Tatar were mad about Schultz signing with the Wings, it's sour grapes.

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06-28-2012, 06:46 PM
  #404
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There are layers of speculation here. It's like I'm in Inception.

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06-28-2012, 06:46 PM
  #405
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Originally Posted by RedWings19405 View Post
Depends on your definition there Jaster, Hockeysfutures still considers Smith a prospect and he has suited up for NHL games.
As he should be, imo. Until you get a full-time spot, you're a prospect.


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In fact if Schultz crashes and burns and is in the AHL 20 games into the season he will still be a prospect according to most places that write about players.
Schultz is being guaranteed a roster spot though, so he's not going to the AHL. If this whole hoopla didn't include those guarantees, I'd agree with you.

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06-28-2012, 06:53 PM
  #406
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Originally Posted by jaster View Post
Schultz is being guaranteed a roster spot though, so he's not going to the AHL. If this whole hoopla didn't include those guarantees, I'd agree with you.
The thing is that it's an ELC, which are all two-way deals. He can be sent to the AHL whether he likes it or not.

I agree with you, though, that Schultz seems to believe he's graduated from prospect to full-time NHL player.

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06-28-2012, 06:58 PM
  #407
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Originally Posted by SoupNazi View Post
The thing is that it's an ELC, which are all two-way deals. He can be sent to the AHL whether he likes it or not.
He could be, but I don't believe that a team guaranteeing him a roster spot translates to: We guarantee you a roster spot for Day 1 only, and if you suck anytime after that, we'll send you down. Because, really, that would be an empty guarantee. I think the guarantee actually means Schultz, right or wrong, will be on an NHL roster all season. And if he sucks, he'll just be in the pressbox instead of on the ice.

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06-28-2012, 06:59 PM
  #408
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoupNazi View Post
The thing is that it's an ELC, which are all two-way deals. He can be sent to the AHL whether he likes it or not.

I agree with you, though, that Schultz seems to believe he's graduated from prospect to full-time NHL player.
Exactly if he is a -15 with no points through 20 games he is going there whether he likes it or not. Seems unlikely, but unless his agent has a 5 million dollar bonus for playing in the AHL, hey that would be smart then if he plays bad he is heading there. Part of the reason he probably cancelled the Wings, they would have competition more than likely that could see him demoted in a quick order if he struggled.

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06-28-2012, 07:06 PM
  #409
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I'm not big on players that want to take the path of least resistance anyway, so this is fine.

If he was all that great he'd want to play on a great team where he'd earn his spot... and you know, get to play on a great team his whole career.

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06-28-2012, 07:07 PM
  #410
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RedWings19405 View Post
Exactly if he is a -15 with no points through 20 games he is going there whether he likes it or not.
Again, I don't think so. First, I think he would be benched well before he gets to 20 games with no points and a -15 rating. Second, given the guarantee he's getting, I think he sits in the pressbox for games and they diligently work with him in practice, until he's ready to see the ice again.

Quote:
Part of the reason he probably cancelled the Wings, they would have competition more than likely that could see him demoted in a quick order if he struggled.
He reportedly will only play in Canada. If that's true, then that's probably why he turned down Detroit.

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06-28-2012, 07:28 PM
  #411
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We will get him in 2 years.

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06-28-2012, 07:48 PM
  #412
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So... He'll listen to Minnesota, but not Detroit? What do the Wild have that we don't? WTC is this I don't even.

You know what? Now I'm flip flopping... I don't even know myself anymore... I don't care about Justin Schultz and his CBA exploitations anymore.

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06-28-2012, 07:52 PM
  #413
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Originally Posted by JmanWingsFan View Post
So... He'll listen to Minnesota, but not Detroit? What do the Wild have that we don't? WTC is this I don't even.

You know what? Now I'm flip flopping... I don't even know myself anymore... I don't care about Justin Schultz and his CBA exploitations anymore.
Dany Heatley locker room leader, Canadian hero everywhere. Plus they befriend each other and demand a duel trade, something nobody has ever seen.

In all honesty if he will listen to the Wild, I think this is bad news for Vancouver, might point towards him wanting to be a part of a young core. But that is only like my 10th guess about what he wants.

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06-28-2012, 09:22 PM
  #414
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jaster View Post
He could be, but I don't believe that a team guaranteeing him a roster spot translates to: We guarantee you a roster spot for Day 1 only, and if you suck anytime after that, we'll send you down. Because, really, that would be an empty guarantee. I think the guarantee actually means Schultz, right or wrong, will be on an NHL roster all season. And if he sucks, he'll just be in the pressbox instead of on the ice.

The Ducks roster wasn't exactly brimming over the rim with elite defensemen, yet he couldn't crack that roster.

He will also consider the NY Rangers, according to reports (TSN).

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06-28-2012, 09:26 PM
  #415
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Originally Posted by jaster View Post


No it isn't. That's false equivalency. I didn't make the claim. Someone else made a claim. And the reasons that were provided are invalid, imo. And if there are no good reasons why Smith would be angry at the Wings for pursuing Schultz, then there is no reason for me to believe he is.
Exactly--- in your opinion. Let's not get carried away and mistake as fact your version of how things can be perceived.

It's not the pursuit of Schultz, per se. It would be the promise of a roster spot to a guy who has neither paid his dues nor outplayed Smith by any metric. Consider that the Wings actually have 19 roster spots accounted for right now if you count Smitty and Nyquist. Then there's Brunner. They want to add Suter. They also need a back-up.

Somebody wasn't going to here so the Wings could sign an overrated prospect.


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But you're making assumptions to come to the conclusion that Schultz feels entitled. I don't know Justin Schultz and I am unfamiliar with his reasons for doing what he has done up to this point. And I have yet to see one poster claim that he does know these things. Do you? If not, then this is what it is: a conclusion based on a lot of speculation and assumptions and, really, nothing more.
Speculation from pundits is that he wants to be in Canada, but would also consider NYR and apparently Minnesota.

I wouldn't call it entitlement to actually seek out a loophole in the CBA that lets you pick where you sign. The entitlement part comes from asking for the guarantee that you'll be on an NHL roster. Most guys have to Sidney Crosby to make that kind of demand. Now, this is all from reports, including Holland's. The more interesting question has been why GM's would make that guarantee, especially if ice time is actually part of that guarantee.

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06-28-2012, 10:42 PM
  #416
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
The Ducks roster wasn't exactly brimming over the rim with elite defensemen, yet he couldn't crack that roster.
He was never in a position to "crack that roster." He was in college.


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Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
Exactly--- in your opinion. Let's not get carried away and mistake as fact your version of how things can be perceived.
I'm not giving a version. Other people are giving a version, with no facts, and I'm pointing out how it doesn't make much sense. The core of this whole debate is this opinion that Smith is angry. It is a claim with no facts, just assumptions and speculation that, again, don't make much sense. And I'm pointing that out, not giving my own version and claiming it to be factual. Get your facts straight

If people want to claim an invisible dragon lives in their garage, I don't have facts to refute it, but my opinion will be that it's not actually there.


Quote:
It's not the pursuit of Schultz, per se. It would be the promise of a roster spot to a guy who has neither paid his dues nor outplayed Smith by any metric.
The pursuit of Schultz and the promise of a roster spot are one in the same in this case. If they weren't willing to promise a roster spot, there'd be no point in pursuing him. So if Smith is angry about the promise of a roster spot, he is angry about the Wings pursuing him in the first place. So you're telling me Smith is angry that the Wings went after a guy who could improve the team. You're telling me that Smith is petty.

And who cares whether Schultz has outplayed Smith? What does that matter? Is that a prereq for joining the Wings? "Must be better than Brendan Smith"?


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Consider that the Wings actually have 19 roster spots accounted for right now if you count Smitty and Nyquist. Then there's Brunner. They want to add Suter. They also need a back-up.

Somebody wasn't going to here so the Wings could sign an overrated prospect.
You forgot to insert "imo" after "overrated." Wouldn't want to confuse people into thinking that's a fact. (But let's be honest, you only think he's overrated because you have taken offense on behalf of Smith based on the belief that Smith should be angry.) And your insistence that he is a prospect, when he is not a prospect, doesn't change anything.

Yes, someone would likely be booted for Schultz. And it would probably be the guy who couldn't beat out Mike Commodore for playing time. A guy whom the Wings clearly have little faith in. Don't think that's a bad thing.


Quote:
The entitlement part comes from asking for the guarantee that you'll be on an NHL roster. Most guys have to Sidney Crosby to make that kind of demand. Now, this is all from reports, including Holland's. The more interesting question has been why GM's would make that guarantee, especially if ice time is actually part of that guarantee.
Maybe because the kid isn't actually overrated? Maybe because a whole bunch of NHL scouts have told their GMs "this kid is ready," or close to ready? And maybe Schultz knew this and knew teams would be willing to offer him a roster spot, so he asked for it? Which, btw, doesn't make him entitled. It just makes him smart. If some teams are willing to put you on the roster, why would you be interested in the teams that won't?

All this emotion over nothing.... a kid trying to play hockey.... Sunday really can't come soon enough

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06-28-2012, 11:06 PM
  #417
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Originally Posted by jaster View Post
Not being thrilled about it is different than being angry at the Wings for it. I mean, we're talking about Schultz getting a roster spot. Not a guarantee that he jumps Smith or Kindl or knocks them down the depth chart. I would expect him to be behind Smith anyway. And Kindl.... well Kindl has no business being, no matter where he winds up. He hasn't proven anything. And with there being a 3 1/2 year age difference, I'd rather go with the younger unproven guy.




Sure, but in this case, if Smith or Tatar were mad about Schultz signing with the Wings, it's sour grapes.
That depends.
If Smith or Kindl come to camp and outwork Schultz and outplay him, but get stuck on the bench or Grand Rapids because of a blind promise made in contract negotiations... then I think it's legit.

Same with Brunner.
If I am Jiri Hudler, who was with the Wings 5 seasons before he locked in on 2nd line, and still always seemed one slump away from line 4, I think I'd be a little pissed about the coach going and saying Brunner is going to start in the top 6.

Maybe Cleary or Bert, or whoever loses a top 6 spot to Brunner, would have cause to be pissed.

At the end of the day, that's life. You can let it eat you up or you can use it as motivation. Still, I think these things can have negative consequences.

I'm not shocked about Holland's comments RE schultz, because they didn't seem real, real committed. But I was a bit surprised by Babcock's comments o the Swiss league guy.

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06-28-2012, 11:12 PM
  #418
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He was never in a position to "crack that roster." He was in college.
Point taken. However, the overarching point stands. He obviously found something wrong with the Anaheim. We can surmise, based on what he's requesting from new teams, what that was:
1) Location
2) Opportunity (on an NHL roster)


Quote:
I'm not giving a version. Other people are giving a version, with no facts, and I'm pointing out how it doesn't make much sense. The core of this whole debate is this opinion that Smith is angry. It is a claim with no facts, just assumptions and speculation that, again, don't make much sense. And I'm pointing that out, not giving my own version and claiming it to be factual. Get your facts straight
Indeed, sounds like --> your <-- of what makes sense.

We don't know what Smith actually thinks or feels. What many of us have said is that we, as humans, might feel a wee bit slighted if we'd paid our dues then got leapfrogged because someone found a loophole in the CBA, and your team was put in a position of being only able to exploit that opportunity by sticking it to you (or someone else in line ahead of him).


Quote:
If people want to claim an invisible dragon lives in their garage, I don't have facts to refute it, but my opinion will be that it's not actually there.
You'd have to believe in invisible dragons first, right? We know Schultz exists however. We know that Holland often talks about loyalty and putting in time in GR and waiting for your shot, being 'overripe'. Heck, Schultz may not even be ripe, let alone overripe.




Quote:
The pursuit of Schultz and the promise of a roster spot are one in the same in this case. If they weren't willing to promise a roster spot, there'd be no point in pursuing him. So if Smith is angry about the promise of a roster spot, he is angry about the Wings pursuing him in the first place. So you're telling me Smith is angry that the Wings went after a guy who could improve the team. You're telling me that Smith is petty.
Mainly because the situation would could cost Smith his spot (since he's still on a two-way), that this player is not superior to Smith... so how does it make the team better....and that Smith put in two years in GR beyond the point where he had the superior stats at UW.

Do you think he would have liked his NHL salary during that time-- or his GR salary. Yeah, awfully petty of him.


Quote:
And who cares whether Schultz has outplayed Smith? What does that matter? Is that a prereq for joining the Wings? "Must be better than Brendan Smith"?
You said it would make the team better. They've already foregone that opportunity last year by that joke of defense they threw together, but now since we're talking about guy who has never seen NHL ice-- it's going to make the team better and who cares if E, Q, Kindl and Smith are ahead in the line?


Quote:
You forgot to insert "imo" after "overrated." Wouldn't want to confuse people into thinking that's a fact. (But let's be honest, you only think he's overrated because you have taken offense on behalf of Smith based on the belief that Smith should be angry.) And your insistence that he is a prospect, when he is not a prospect, doesn't change anything.
He's a prospect whose agent found a loophole in the CBA. That is the ONLY reason he can sign with another team. That situation does not make him an NHL player--- yet. Some team promising him a roster spot won't make him an NHL player yet either if the reality turns out to be that he's not ready.

Were it not for the mistake in the CBA, this kid would be heading for the minors.

Quote:
Yes, someone would likely be booted for Schultz. And it would probably be the guy who couldn't beat out Mike Commodore for playing time. A guy whom the Wings clearly have little faith in. Don't think that's a bad thing.
Assuming that Schultz is actually better than all those guys ahead of him. What makes you believe that's the case?




Quote:
Maybe because the kid isn't actually overrated? Maybe because a whole bunch of NHL scouts have told their GMs "this kid is ready," or close to ready? And maybe Schultz knew this and knew teams would be willing to offer him a roster spot, so he asked for it? Which, btw, doesn't make him entitled. It just makes him smart. If some teams are willing to put you on the roster, why would you be interested in the teams that won't?
Would the Ducks have given him that spot? If he really is ready, did he believe the Ducks weren't going to put him on the roster?


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All this emotion over nothing.... a kid trying to play hockey.... Sunday really can't come soon enough
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06-28-2012, 11:58 PM
  #419
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Here is a good question if Vancouver does win the Schultz bidding, is a Suter & Garrison double possible? Vancouver would have filled their top four spots if we believe that to be a condition. We know Garrison favors Vancouver then probably back to Florida but he wants a big role. I am not going to say they are the same player but in my opinion Campbell and Kronwall have some similar attributes to how they play the game. If they are loading up on D assets this would be intriguing. Probably could flip some of them for Hemsky with one of our picks as Edmonton will be hurting as the loser and probably very interested in someone like Quincey and Kindl.

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06-30-2012, 12:48 AM
  #420
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Odd that Gretzky and Coffey are selling for Edmonton, two guys that sold out the city in the past.

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06-30-2012, 01:26 AM
  #421
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Odd that Gretzky and Coffey are selling for Edmonton, two guys that sold out the city in the past.
I believe Gretzky was 'sold' to the highest bidder by ol' Peter Pocklington.

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06-30-2012, 05:14 AM
  #422
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This was a nice subplot to the free agency though

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06-30-2012, 08:39 AM
  #423
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This was a nice subplot to the free agency though
Got our speculation going anyways

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06-30-2012, 09:06 AM
  #424
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Just sign Suter...I don't give a Schultz.

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06-30-2012, 09:15 AM
  #425
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Just sign Suter...I don't give a Schultz.
Clever.

I don't give a Shoalzie about Schultz.

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