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Justin Schultz de-registers from Winsconsin

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Old
05-27-2012, 11:26 PM
  #126
Dado
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Originally Posted by Proto View Post
I don't really know what your argument is here, to be perfectly honest.
That much is obvious.

If at some point you actually want to know, feel free to ask.

If you just want to keep shooting flaming arrows at strawmen, well, you don't need my help with that.

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05-27-2012, 11:27 PM
  #127
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Originally Posted by opendoor View Post
Why? Schultz isn't under contract to the Ducks.
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Originally Posted by opendoor View Post
Schultz has never signed a contract to play for Anaheim, they merely hold his rights. That's the biggest difference between Hodgson and guys like Schultz, Erixon, or even Turris. None of those guys were under contract to the teams they decided to move on from.

The crux of the issue imo, is that Schultz hasn't even played a single NHL game, and he's already acting as though he's 'entitled' to play wherever he wants, etc. It's the sort of thing that comes across as a lot like, 'i'm better and more deserving than the hundreds of other players who have been drafted and gone through the established channels to prove themselves and EARN the right to choose where they play'.

It's a different situation if a player puts in the hours, toils away and finds that it's not a fit, or hits 27 and has put in the hours to play where they want. For example, when Dan Hamhuis decided to 'come home', that's one thing. That's a guy who played out his obligations without sniveling and whining and holding out, and when the time came, he seized the opportunity to move to where he wanted to be.

Erixon was a very similar situation, and as much as i enjoy a good laugh at the Flames expense (who doesn't?), it was a similarly questionable move with regards to the player's integrity.

Again, i'm not at all opposed to pursuing Schultz aggressively. I think he'd be an outstanding asset to add to this organization. But i do find it amusing that there is such a pronounced difference in perception of how this sort of thing reflects on a player's character depending on whether they're coming or going.

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05-27-2012, 11:31 PM
  #128
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Originally Posted by Dado View Post
That much is obvious.

If at some point you actually want to know, feel free to ask.

If you just want to keep shooting flaming arrows at strawmen, well, you don't need my help with that.
Uh, I think most people reading your argument would probably come to the same conclusion I have, so I think the delivery is the problem -- and based on the response you're getting, I'm pretty confident in that assertion.

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05-27-2012, 11:37 PM
  #129
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"Most" is one other person, who has already reconsidered after engaging in further conversation.

It's real simple - to me Schultz has a long shot to becoming an impact D in the NHL, so if a later-round pick (eg, post-second) is enough to get the rights to chat with him, don't see a compelling reason not to do it, especially as the contract terms are CBA-fixed at a comfortable level. I also see no character issues at all from his backing away from Anaheim.

Anything beyond that I consider pure conjecture, and remain firmly in the state of Missouri.

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Old
05-27-2012, 11:47 PM
  #130
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Originally Posted by biturbo19 View Post
The crux of the issue imo, is that Schultz hasn't even played a single NHL game, and he's already acting as though he's 'entitled' to play wherever he wants, etc. It's the sort of thing that comes across as a lot like, 'i'm better and more deserving than the hundreds of other players who have been drafted and gone through the established channels to prove themselves and EARN the right to choose where they play'.

It's a different situation if a player puts in the hours, toils away and finds that it's not a fit, or hits 27 and has put in the hours to play where they want. For example, when Dan Hamhuis decided to 'come home', that's one thing. That's a guy who played out his obligations without sniveling and whining and holding out, and when the time came, he seized the opportunity to move to where he wanted to be.

Erixon was a very similar situation, and as much as i enjoy a good laugh at the Flames expense (who doesn't?), it was a similarly questionable move with regards to the player's integrity.

Again, i'm not at all opposed to pursuing Schultz aggressively. I think he'd be an outstanding asset to add to this organization. But i do find it amusing that there is such a pronounced difference in perception of how this sort of thing reflects on a player's character depending on whether they're coming or going.
He is entitled to go wherever he wants...he's not obligated to sign with Anaheim.

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05-28-2012, 12:54 AM
  #131
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Originally Posted by Proto View Post
A brief intermezzo:

To sum up your straw man argument, Schultz will not be a god-like presence in the NHL, but you're unwilling to actually say how good you think he might be, but the Canucks should still show interest.

Which means no matter what happens, you'll be able to say you were right.

You can resume the murdering of innocent straw men now.

Scene.
Essentially, he has no idea who the player in question is. Never heard of him, his strengths and weaknesses so he's just essentially generalizing.

There's actually no point to his post.

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05-28-2012, 02:48 AM
  #132
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Originally Posted by biturbo19 View Post
The crux of the issue imo, is that Schultz hasn't even played a single NHL game, and he's already acting as though he's 'entitled' to play wherever he wants, etc. It's the sort of thing that comes across as a lot like, 'i'm better and more deserving than the hundreds of other players who have been drafted and gone through the established channels to prove themselves and EARN the right to choose where they play'.

It's a different situation if a player puts in the hours, toils away and finds that it's not a fit, or hits 27 and has put in the hours to play where they want. For example, when Dan Hamhuis decided to 'come home', that's one thing. That's a guy who played out his obligations without sniveling and whining and holding out, and when the time came, he seized the opportunity to move to where he wanted to be.

Erixon was a very similar situation, and as much as i enjoy a good laugh at the Flames expense (who doesn't?), it was a similarly questionable move with regards to the player's integrity.

Again, i'm not at all opposed to pursuing Schultz aggressively. I think he'd be an outstanding asset to add to this organization. But i do find it amusing that there is such a pronounced difference in perception of how this sort of thing reflects on a player's character depending on whether they're coming or going.
At the end of the day why should he "go through the established channels".... Who is to say those are fair? They clearly favor the teams and were negotiated for by veteran players who sold the rights of younger players as bargaining chips for better payouts later. If a loophole exists, why is he not entitled to explore it?

From a financial standpoint it makes no sense for him to sign with the Ducks prior to becoming a free agent as he has no bargaining power and would have to simply accept an ELC. If he is indeed the best defenseman not in the NHL he should be paid as such. It doesn't matter if he hasn't played a single NHL game, it's the people in the game who are valuing him to be this good. If Yakupov was in this situation he would be getting insane offers too.

And then there's the clear advantage of choosing the team you play for, which includes choice of city as well as picking a franchise where you will fit in (ice time, development, coach etc...)

In any case it sucks for the Ducks but that's the risk in drafting a player who attends college late. They can still bid for his services as a UFA or give him a sweet offer during the 30 day window.

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05-28-2012, 03:17 AM
  #133
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Originally Posted by biturbo19 View Post
The crux of the issue imo, is that Schultz hasn't even played a single NHL game, and he's already acting as though he's 'entitled' to play wherever he wants, etc. It's the sort of thing that comes across as a lot like, 'i'm better and more deserving than the hundreds of other players who have been drafted and gone through the established channels to prove themselves and EARN the right to choose where they play'.

It's a different situation if a player puts in the hours, toils away and finds that it's not a fit, or hits 27 and has put in the hours to play where they want. For example, when Dan Hamhuis decided to 'come home', that's one thing. That's a guy who played out his obligations without sniveling and whining and holding out, and when the time came, he seized the opportunity to move to where he wanted to be.

Erixon was a very similar situation, and as much as i enjoy a good laugh at the Flames expense (who doesn't?), it was a similarly questionable move with regards to the player's integrity.

Again, i'm not at all opposed to pursuing Schultz aggressively. I think he'd be an outstanding asset to add to this organization. But i do find it amusing that there is such a pronounced difference in perception of how this sort of thing reflects on a player's character depending on whether they're coming or going.
But he's a free agent, so he is entitled to choose where he plays, regardless of his experience.

If Eddie Lack becomes a Group VI UFA next July despite not "earning" the right to choose where he plays do you think people are going to sling insults his way if he decides to move on from the Canucks for a better opportunity? I don't. People were just miffed at the prospect of Hodgson requesting a trade because he was under contract with the Canucks. The expectation in that situation is that you honor your agreement and do what's best for your teammates and your organization. If you're not under contract, then all bets are off.

Drafted players have no obligations until they sign a contract. Teams don't sign every single draft pick they make and often pass on players who they don't think will be a fit. Why is there the expectation that every single draft pick should sign with their team regardless of the situation? Especially in Schultz's case when merely waiting a couple of months will result in becoming a UFA. Frankly he'd be stupid not to opt for UFA status.

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05-28-2012, 05:41 AM
  #134
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IMO the Schultz situation is no different than the slew of MLB prospects who opt to go to college instead of signing with their MLB club.

The only difference is that the MLB club has a small window of time to sign them (a handful of months), whereas the NHL has 3 years.

Nobody is mentioning the risk Schultz took by opting to forego mentoring from a pro club and believing he is a an asset worthy of 29 other clubs chasing him.

I will say the same thing even if he becomes an Oiler. Nothing Justin Schultz is doing right now is against the CBA, and it is even less controversial than offer-sheeting an RFA.

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05-28-2012, 08:38 AM
  #135
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Originally Posted by thenextone View Post
At the end of the day why should he "go through the established channels".... Who is to say those are fair? They clearly favor the teams and were negotiated for by veteran players who sold the rights of younger players as bargaining chips for better payouts later. If a loophole exists, why is he not entitled to explore it?

From a financial standpoint it makes no sense for him to sign with the Ducks prior to becoming a free agent as he has no bargaining power and would have to simply accept an ELC. If he is indeed the best defenseman not in the NHL he should be paid as such. It doesn't matter if he hasn't played a single NHL game, it's the people in the game who are valuing him to be this good. If Yakupov was in this situation he would be getting insane offers too.

And then there's the clear advantage of choosing the team you play for, which includes choice of city as well as picking a franchise where you will fit in (ice time, development, coach etc...)

In any case it sucks for the Ducks but that's the risk in drafting a player who attends college late. They can still bid for his services as a UFA or give him a sweet offer during the 30 day window.
It's been well discussed already in the various threads on Schultz that the maximum contract he can be awarded is $925,000 per season plus bonuses. The Ducks do not have the option to "give him a sweet offer" nor does Schultz have the ability to bargain for a contract that accordingly awards him compensation as "the best defenseman not in the NHL."

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Schultz isnít becoming an unrestricted free agent for money. Schultz must still sign an entry-level deal, which means there will be no real financial bidding war between teams. The maximum contract Schultz can sign is for two years at $925,000 a year with a $92,500 signing bonus. Schultz will undoubtedly have performance bonuses worked into his contract as well, so the max he can earn per season is $3.725 million.
http://www.fiveminutesforfighting.co...eepstakes.html

All the teams that are in the discussion for Schultz are basically offering the same contract. This isn't about a player holding out for a deal that gets him the most money. If it was, Schultz would have been better served by signing with the Ducks earlier on and burning his ELC years as quickly as possible.

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05-28-2012, 10:27 AM
  #136
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Originally Posted by Iceberg Slim View Post
All the teams that are in the discussion for Schultz are basically offering the same contract. This isn't about a player holding out for a deal that gets him the most money. If it was, Schultz would have been better served by signing with the Ducks earlier on and burning his ELC years as quickly as possible.
Exactly. Nor is a question of icetime; where he would've got a legitimate chance in their top six (like Cam Fowler did).

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05-28-2012, 10:42 AM
  #137
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Exactly. Nor is a question of icetime; where he would've got a legitimate chance in their top six (like Cam Fowler did).
While we don't know exactly what Schultz's decision making criteria is/will be, we can speculate and I would guess that ice time is a part of it just not the main issue.

The main issues, in my opinion not in order of importants are:
Ice Time (not going to go to a team very deep where he'll be buried for a season or two)
Hockey Market (will want to go a market that loves hockey)
Competitive (will want to go to a team that is/will be competitive soon)
Location (from Sicamous, does he want to go to a team that is close to home)
Friends (Gardiner is a friend, does he want play with him)

I really see the Canucks, Oilers and Leafs being the front runners (I know not very original).

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05-28-2012, 11:42 AM
  #138
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I am amused about how many boards have this thread. I am starting to think this is like a sighting of he Lock Ness Monster to a bit. I hope the guy well, but I am starting to think there is no way the hype can meet expectations

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05-28-2012, 11:50 AM
  #139
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I am amused about how many boards have this thread. I am starting to think this is like a sighting of he Lock Ness Monster to a bit. I hope the guy well, but I am starting to think there is no way the hype can meet expectations
It's the hockeysfuture boards and we are talking about an HF top 50 prospect becoming available for nothing who could plausibly sign with any team - of course there is going to be an inordinate amount of hype here, posters here are (in general) as obsessed with kids as Pierre Maguire.

I don't think you'll find the hype as intense elsewhere, but even then yes you're probably right: signing Schultz isn't going to be the coup many fans expect it to be - such is the nature of fanaticism, I suppose.

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05-28-2012, 12:05 PM
  #140
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I don't think you'll find the hype as intense elsewhere, but even then yes you're probably right: signing Schultz isn't going to be the coup many fans expect it to be - such is the nature of fanaticism, I suppose.
Just look at the frenzy regarding a lotto 649 with a huge jackpot. The fact the odds are something like 10+ million to one of winning doesn't deter the interest in getting a ticket.

Schultz is like getting a free lottery ticket (except of course to Aquini).

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05-28-2012, 01:18 PM
  #141
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Originally Posted by richard armus View Post
I am amused about how many boards have this thread. I am starting to think this is like a sighting of he Lock Ness Monster to a bit. I hope the guy well, but I am starting to think there is no way the hype can meet expectations
Well, major difference is that Schultz exists.

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05-28-2012, 02:04 PM
  #142
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People seem to be confusing hype with interest. Teams are interested because Schultz is a good prospect that will cost them nothing. Players like this rarely hit free agency hence the interest.

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05-28-2012, 04:05 PM
  #143
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Well, major difference is that Schultz exists.
Well, many people in Scotland truly believe ole Nessy is alive and well and still pops up

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05-28-2012, 04:16 PM
  #144
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Well, many people in Scotland truly believe ole Nessy is alive and well and still pops up
Yes, he's just elusive. That's all.

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05-28-2012, 04:17 PM
  #145
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Originally Posted by richard armus View Post
I am amused about how many boards have this thread. I am starting to think this is like a sighting of he Lock Ness Monster to a bit. I hope the guy well, but I am starting to think there is no way the hype can meet expectations
Watch him sign in the KHL.

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05-28-2012, 06:47 PM
  #146
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Watch him sign in the KHL.
I heard he had a friend out there and his 2nd cousins brother lives there...
Therefore he signs in KHL next year

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05-28-2012, 06:49 PM
  #147
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Watch him sign in the KHL.
Well if he ain't coming here, then he definitely should.

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05-29-2012, 12:20 PM
  #148
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When Schultz is weighing the pros and cons I wonder if AV's treatment of Ballard plays into the equation.

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05-29-2012, 12:22 PM
  #149
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When Schultz is weighing the pros and cons I wonder if AV's treatment of Ballard plays into the equation.
Didn't prevent Martin Gelinas from re-signing with the Panthers a number of years ago - despite Mike Keenan being the de facto GM (and we all know how he treated Gelinas like garbage during their Canuck days).

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05-29-2012, 12:26 PM
  #150
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When Schultz is weighing the pros and cons I wonder if AV's treatment of Ballard plays into the equation.
I said this elsewhere on here but I think AV's treatment of Chris Tanev would be a pretty positive indicator for Schultz.

Basically if you are an NHL player and you can execute the system they are preaching, they will find ice time for you.

Schultz also plays the position the Canucks have the most problem with depth at (right side defenseman - they have Bieksa, Tanev and no other NHL players under contract) so he's got a huge advantage over KB4 there.

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