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Gary Bettman's contradictory statement

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12-20-2004, 03:11 PM
  #1
Russian Fan
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Gary Bettman's contradictory statement

About the NHL players salaries (CAP)

Quote:
We need a system where we can controlled what each team will spend
About the NHL Ticket price (CAP)

Quote:
The fact is the ticket prices in one market don't affect ticket prices in another market," the commissioner said. "A salary set by one team affects the marketplace for all players for all 29 other teams."
To me that's the best thing Bettman can tell that fans can related when he's lying straight in their faces.

They want a capped to maximize profit but they say ticket price should be base as a free market based on demand & supply.

I don't believe everything of what the NHLPA is saying but what Bettman is saying is pure crap. I just don't see why people still believe the owners & Bettman are doing this for the fans & to fix the game.

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12-20-2004, 03:15 PM
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Kaiped Krusader
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Hasn't this been discussed ad nauseum?

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12-20-2004, 03:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaiped Krusader
Hasn't this been discussed ad nauseum?
Don't participate then. With you posting that kind of post helped you get more post ? Just ignore it if you're annoyed by it.

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12-20-2004, 03:27 PM
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Kaiped Krusader
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From now on ... will do.

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12-20-2004, 03:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Russian Fan
To me that's the best thing Bettman can tell that fans can related when he's lying straight in their faces.

They want a capped to maximize profit but they say ticket price should be base as a free market based on demand & supply.

I don't believe everything of what the NHLPA is saying but what Bettman is saying is pure crap. I just don't see why people still believe the owners & Bettman are doing this for the fans & to fix the game.
The fans in one market don't buy tickets in another market. The players have just one market: the NHL. The fans have 30 markets.

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12-20-2004, 04:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ceber
The fans in one market don't buy tickets in another market. The players have just one market: the NHL. The fans have 30 markets.
That's only true for UFAs.

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12-20-2004, 04:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ceber
The fans in one market don't buy tickets in another market. The players have just one market: the NHL. The fans have 30 markets.
Sorry, but thats total bs. First off, plenty of fans buy tickets in ither markets. And if there's 30 markets for fans, there's 30 markets for players. You can't have it both ways.

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12-20-2004, 04:16 PM
  #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeytown9321
Sorry, but thats total bs. First off, plenty of fans buy tickets in ither markets. And if there's 30 markets for fans, there's 30 markets for players. You can't have it both ways.
Total BS? Complete? I don't think so. The vast majority of fans at a game are from the local area. The people that buy season tickets certainly are, and the prices are set by what the local market can bear. What people are willing to pay in Toronto doesn't affect the price of tickets in Dallas. Maybe it's different on the east cost, but I don't know anyone from St. Paul who has Oilers season tickets. It's just too far away.

There clearly is only one market for players. Look at arbitration. Are players only allowed to select comparables from their own team or even teams in markets of similar economies? Is there any sort of cost-of-living adjustment made to comparables from other teams? The answer to both is no. There is only one market for players, the NHL.

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12-20-2004, 04:40 PM
  #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ceber
Total BS? Complete? I don't think so. The vast majority of fans at a game are from the local area. The people that buy season tickets certainly are, and the prices are set by what the local market can bear. What people are willing to pay in Toronto doesn't affect the price of tickets in Dallas.
Yes it does. You don't think Colorado sees Detroit charing $60 for a ticket and decide they can too? There might be different strata within the league, but teams within the same strata definitely set the bar for each other.

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12-20-2004, 04:46 PM
  #10
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I'd love to compare the average sales price per ticket for the Leafs or the Rangers, and compare it to a "new" franchise.

This is really the heart of the CBA battle. Certain teams have revenue streams that are MUCH greater than other teams. This can be due to several factors, but one of the major factors is what the local market will bear for tickets.

People have ripped on the Rangers and Leafs for some big contracts. I think this is wrong because these teams business model supports contracts at this level. I think it's much worse when PHO signs Brian Savage to a 4 year $14M contract, because that contract is KILLING the franchise. If the Leafs bomb on a contract (Anders Erikson for example), they pay him $1.5M to play in the minors and don't miss a beat. A team like the Penguins gave Kovalev away because the Rangers agreed to pick up some other dog contracts (Wilson, Laukanen) that the Pen's couldn't afford.

Every non-UFA contract sets a new precedent in the NHL, regardless of who signs it, so the biggest mistake sets the salary bar. Then factor in that players have greater leverage (see below) when holding out in most cases, and salary creep is inevitable.

I say that players have the leverage because if a team struggles with a major player holding out, a team can fail to make the play-off's with major economic impact. If a player holds out long enough, he gets traded, and the team that trades for him almost always thinks he's worth what he's asking for, so he the player then gets what he wants.

Look at Mironov for the Hawks from 5 years ago. They trade 3 good young players for a guy they think will be their #1 d-man. BoBo holds out for a crazy amount of money, and the Hawks REALLY struggle coming out of the gate. They feel they won't make the P/O's unless they turn it around in a hurry, so they sign BoBo to what he wants. Then to add insult to injury he backloads the contract so the QO after his contract expires is on a much higher base amount. Other example is Peca. Sabres hold the line, but Mad Mike will pay Peca the $4MM he's looking for, so MP gets what he wants in the end.


Last edited by Beukeboom Fan: 12-20-2004 at 04:52 PM.
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12-20-2004, 04:54 PM
  #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeytown9321
Yes it does. You don't think Colorado sees Detroit charing $60 for a ticket and decide they can too? There might be different strata within the league, but teams within the same strata definitely set the bar for each other.
If people in Colorado won't pay 60$, it doesn't matter how much Detroit charges. The market is the market, and it's local. If people in Colorado will pay 60 bucks, well then, that's what the local market will support.

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12-20-2004, 05:05 PM
  #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ceber
If people in Colorado won't pay 60$, it doesn't matter how much Detroit charges. The market is the market, and it's local. If people in Colorado will pay 60 bucks, well then, that's what the local market will support.
It does matter what Detroit or Toronto or Dallas charge becuase it lets Colorado know how far they can push it. If Detroit charges $80, Colorado can get away with charging the same, reasoning that they have to in order to stay competitve with Detroit. If Detroit keeps their tickets at $60, Colorado has no reason to increase their prices.

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12-20-2004, 05:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shveik
That's only true for UFAs.
The reason I disagree - guys like McCarthy, Maltby or Draper. They're great to exceptional 3rd/4th line players, but they're making $2M+ apiece. The Wings can afford to pay McCarthy $2M per year, but 20+ teams in the league can't afford that.

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12-20-2004, 05:14 PM
  #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeytown9321
It does matter what Detroit or Toronto or Dallas charge becuase it lets Colorado know how far they can push it. If Detroit charges $80, Colorado can get away with charging the same, reasoning that they have to in order to stay competitve with Detroit. If Detroit keeps their tickets at $60, Colorado has no reason to increase their prices.
Disagree 100%. If they can increase their ticket prices, they make more money (or lose less money depending who you talk to).

The Av's don't increase ticket prices because the Wings do. They increase ticket prices because the always sell out, and they know that if someone doesn't renew their tickets, someone else will purchase them.

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12-20-2004, 05:14 PM
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Ok. So let's put a cap on ticket prices. Do we set it where the fans in Pittsburg, Carolina, Florida, Phoenix, etc. sporadically walk up and buy them so that the ticket broker selling tickets in Toronto on the corner or E-bay can buy a new car after every game?? Or do we set it high enough, so that the NHL can maximize revenues in each market???

If you can't get a ticket in Toronto or Detroit or Chicago or Colorado or whereever now, you're still not going to get them if the prices were lowered ... it'll just mean more corporation will scoop up season tickets and some grocery chain will end up offerring the rest out in a lottery or something on gameday!!!

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12-20-2004, 05:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beukeboom Fan
The reason I disagree - guys like McCarthy, Maltby or Draper. They're great to exceptional 3rd/4th line players, but they're making $2M+ apiece. The Wings can afford to pay McCarthy $2M per year, but 20+ teams in the league can't afford that.
#1Who's McCarthy?

#2 Maltby makes less than $2 million. If the league took the 24% rollback, only Draper would be over $2 million, at 2.1.

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12-20-2004, 05:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeytown9321
It does matter what Detroit or Toronto or Dallas charge becuase it lets Colorado know how far they can push it. If Detroit charges $80, Colorado can get away with charging the same, reasoning that they have to in order to stay competitve with Detroit. If Detroit keeps their tickets at $60, Colorado has no reason to increase their prices.
Actually, the local market will tell you how far each team can "push it". If Colorado tries to charge the same prices as Toronto, but they see a decrease in attendance, they have pushed ticket prices too far and Colorado will need to decrease prices to what the market will bear. Each market will try to maximize revenue as much as possible, but the market itself will indicate if the team is pushing it too far.

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12-20-2004, 05:24 PM
  #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beukeboom Fan

The Av's don't increase ticket prices because the Wings do. They increase ticket prices because the always sell out, and they know that if someone doesn't renew their tickets, someone else will purchase them.
They increase or decrease based on thier individal market on a micro level. The big teams are all within a certain range, and those teams can have an impact at the macro level. Demand won't go down much if prices are increased 10-15% in order to stay competitive with another team that has just increased their tickets 10-15%.

In other words, Denver is a wealthier market per capita than Detroit. If the overall ticket price max was set on a market by market basis, Colorado's tickets would be much higher than Detroit's. So why aren't they?

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12-20-2004, 05:26 PM
  #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djhn579
Actually, the local market will tell you how far each team can "push it". If Colorado tries to charge the same prices as Toronto, but they see a decrease in attendance, they have pushed ticket prices too far and Colorado will need to decrease prices to what the market will bear. Each market will try to maximize revenue as much as possible, but the market itself will indicate if the team is pushing it too far.

Like I said, on a micro level you're right. But just like contracts, one team can raise the bar on ticket prices.

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12-20-2004, 06:30 PM
  #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Russian Fan
About the NHL players salaries (CAP)



About the NHL Ticket price (CAP)



To me that's the best thing Bettman can tell that fans can related when he's lying straight in their faces.

They want a capped to maximize profit but they say ticket price should be base as a free market based on demand & supply.

I don't believe everything of what the NHLPA is saying but what Bettman is saying is pure crap. I just don't see why people still believe the owners & Bettman are doing this for the fans & to fix the game.

Well the aren't quite the same unless the players are prepared to give up both arbitration and UFAs status. That way they are stuck to the local market just like the team. What TO charges won't affect them, what St Louis pays Pronger is irrelevant. Do both of those and its a pretty close deal.

Secondly, a ticket cap would be good. It should be set at the lowest value tickets in the NHL. Since players are set to recieve 54% of revenue then driving down tickey prices isn't going to do them a lot of good. If they want a further 40% reduction on top of their 24% reduction, who am I to stop them.


Last edited by me2: 12-20-2004 at 07:53 PM.
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12-20-2004, 06:44 PM
  #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beukeboom Fan
The reason I disagree - guys like McCarthy, Maltby or Draper. They're great to exceptional 3rd/4th line players, but they're making $2M+ apiece. The Wings can afford to pay McCarthy $2M per year, but 20+ teams in the league can't afford that.
That disputes my claim that it applies to UFAs how? Draper and Maltby were signed to these high contracts because of their impending UFA status. Which in the case of Draper wasn't such a bad investment, since a comparable UFA checker Marchant got 4mil/year from Columbus. Again, they were (or at least very close to) UFAs when signing these contracts, so you have to find another reason to disagree.

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12-20-2004, 10:10 PM
  #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Russian Fan
About the NHL players salaries (CAP)



About the NHL Ticket price (CAP)



To me that's the best thing Bettman can tell that fans can related when he's lying straight in their faces.

They want a capped to maximize profit but they say ticket price should be base as a free market based on demand & supply.

I don't believe everything of what the NHLPA is saying but what Bettman is saying is pure crap. I just don't see why people still believe the owners & Bettman are doing this for the fans & to fix the game.
I don't find the statements contradictory. And, a professional league's labor market is a much different animal than the market for tickets. The league and the union operate collectively and face off over the CBA like bilateral monopolies. You need to bone up on economics.

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12-20-2004, 11:26 PM
  #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by misterjaggers
I don't find the statements contradictory. And, a professional league's labor market is a much different animal than the market for tickets. The league and the union operate collectively and face off over the CBA like bilateral monopolies. You need to bone up on economics.
A logic lesson or two wouldn't hurt either.

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12-21-2004, 12:58 AM
  #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by misterjaggers
I don't find the statements contradictory. And, a professional league's labor market is a much different animal than the market for tickets. The league and the union operate collectively and face off over the CBA like bilateral monopolies. You need to bone up on economics.
The statements may or may not contradict, but the driving force behind the two caps would be the same. The league wants cost certainty (read: discount) and the consumers want cost certainty (read:discount).

Another thing that could be considered contradictory, is that different markets are being considered when it comes to getting the maximum revenue (read: squeeze the fans). But when it comes to paying salaries from those revenues, suddenly all the markets become the same. Wait a minute, how about different caps for different teams, tied to their respective revenues?

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12-21-2004, 03:04 AM
  #25
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<SIGH> Some people just don't get it.

Fans belong to certain markets and every market has a different capability to pay different ticket prices. Use Leafs ticket prices to sell Canes games and you'll see crowds of 4000-5000 in no time. That's why ticket prices have to be different in each market.

Players use players in other teams as 'comparables' so a Canes player wants to be paid like a Leafs player and the current system forces the team to either give him the money (or close to it) or trade him away. And that's where the problem is.

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